DerHuhnTeufel, on 05 March 2018 - 10:37 AM, said:
Want to know how I know you haven't actually used LRMs for any length of time? They only require a lock at the end.
AMS is actually kind of rare. I don't see more than 1 in a typical QP match, and if I'm not on my kit fox I don't rely on them to reduce the damage to any degree (at a cost of considerable tonnage and hard points). If you're only landing 30% of your missiles, reconsider where you're firing them from. If you don't have clear line of sight unbroken by terrain and you're a ways away, then yes, you might only land a few of them. If you're only 500 away with unobstructed line of sight, I'm willing to bet actual numbers are closer to 90%.
Full damage from 180-900 meters. The only other weapon that can do that is the AC2. With skill choices you can push your effective range out to almost 1 km, and that's with all LRMs, not just the biggest ones, unlike every other weapon group.
Then don't face trade with something not designed for face trading. In fact, never face trade. That's a sure fire way to fail at this game and guarantee your team loses the match. Always flank, always look for ways to maximize your DPS and armor usage. The only time LRMs are "risky" in the sense you posted above is if you ONLY have LRMs and planned on hiding the whole fight, which will guarantee your team hates you. If I'm on a light and see a full LRM boat, yes I'll charge them. If I notice they also have 4 medium pulses or a few PPCs, maybe I'll think twice.
They only hit 30% of the time if you're using them wrong.
It's very rare that sniper builds break 1k damage. I see brawlers doing it all the time, though. Everyone complains about the alpha, but it's really not the game changer if you don't just trade shots.
So someone who has devoted ~17 skill points into staying off radar when LoS is broken can beat an unboosted weapon system that's receiving no support from UAVs or friendly mechs. Why's there a complaint there? Slap a probe and tag on there and you'll lock nearly instantly.
Also, your missiles will keep going to the last point they were locked on at once you've lost the lock. If that poptart can't move fast enough, or they don't move horizontally at all compared to your position, they'll still take some of the volley.
Basically, use LRMs as a mid-range weapon with line of sight, and you'll see the crazy damage with them. If you're going to use them as long range weapons without line of sight, then you'd better be doing it to suppress the enemy rather than counting on that for damage.
So many assumptions... I used to be quite good with LRM platforms and pioneered many techniques for deploying and using LRM support in my former unit. I just gave up on using them because they do not have equal reward for effort exerted once you are no longer fighting against nublets and windowlickers.
So let's begin
You require a lock to gain missile track. Firing without lock lobs unguided missiles at whatever your reticule is over. So this means you need lock at the very begining BEFORE you fire to have guidance. Also the very moment you lose the lock the missile volley will track to the last point the missiles had as a locked target.
So if you do not maintain the lock for the whole duration from launch to impact then you will miss anything that isn't a stationary.
Launching "blind" without lock and trying to gain a lock before the missiles detonate is...well an absurd suggestion due to the unlikelhood of succeeding.
Didn't make this up this is actually how LRMs work. You need to maintain the lock to retain missile track.
Onto your counter point two...
AMS hardpoints are not rare every mech but one has an AMS hardpoint and several have 2,3 and now up to 4 AMS hardpoints. Confermation bias is not what I would attempt to base an argument on. I frequently see several AMS on each team. But, I digress.
ECM, AMS and Radar Deprivation all require no active action on the part of the player to defend from LRMs. Are you going to now tell me that you don't see ECM and nobody uses radar derping? While missile launch warnings are passively triggered and do require some action taken to defend yourself but...at 160 mps velocity for LRMs you probably have time to make a sandwich first.
Now about my 30% accuracy estimate. if you read my statement carefully the 30% is a per projectile estimate not per volley. Given the innate accuracy (or inaccuracy) of LRMs a perfect volley fired at a stationary target frequently will have individual projectiles that miss. Now if that target is moving and at some rate of speed more projectiles will miss. So even a target in the open that is moving will not be struck with 100% of the missile fired.
Now we need to think about how the estimated 30% AVERAGES out over the TOTAL volume of INDIVIDUAL projectiles fired.
How many strike obstructions?
How many miss from lost locks?
How many are shot down with AMS?
It is a fairly common practice for LRM ammo counts to be aproximately one ton per 5 tubes of launcher. With extreme numbers of launch tubes generally dedicating a bit less than 1 ton per 5 tubes.
A typical Supernova LRM 80 will carry around 12-14 tons of ammo and certainly not fewer than 7 or 8 if secondary weaponry is substantial.
With 14 tons of ammo the LRMs alone have a damage capacity of 2520. I would be surprised if the damage output from LRMs alone exceeds 800 from this build when it expends ALL it's 2,520 missiles when fighting against non nublet barrel fish.
Think of laser weapons,The stats listed count times fired against number of times damage is done. It does not take into account how much of the burn duration was fired off into empty space. So the stats may say someone has a 90% accuracy with large lasers it is also possible for them to also have missed 50% of the potential damage output on an average.
Therefore a more accurate assesment of how often this player deals damage with large lasers should take the number of total hits and divide it by 50% so now we see 90% hit ratio is actually less than half the damage or around 47% hit accuracy.
Now about range...
LRMs do not really have a 900m range. LRMs have a 900m travel distance. So we need to calculate the ballistic arc when determining total distance fired. It is frequently stated that LRM effective range is actually at 700m or less in practical use.
So when considering how actual engagements occur in MWo an AC10 fired at 900m will dish out 5 damage essentially a DPS of 2. While a LRM 20 will have a DPS of 0 because it can't hit at all.
FYI the DPS of a perfectly fired 100% accurate LRM 20 is 4.65. Since I do stick by my 30% damage on target estimate (averaged per projectile not isolated to hits per volley fired) the AC10 will significantly out perform an LRM20 at the 700-900m bracket. The Ac10 will place 5 points of aimed pinpoint damage while the LRM20 will average less than 50% (being generous here) damage on target as "splash" damage across several body sections and lacking the ability to even attempt to aim for weak spots. Then take into account the differences in projectile velocities 1,100 mps for the AC10 and 160mps for the LRM and guess who will evade more shots fired at them?
LRM "long range" is a myth in actual practice since even clan ER medium lasers can effectively out trade LRMs with their 800m max ranges even while doing only half the damage.
Now onto trades...my point still stands because as you said don't trade...right? and why not? because the LRM platform can't and this is an easily exploited weakness and thus a glaringly obvious RISK.
Claiming there are no risks when there are plentiful risks is either misinformation or ignorance on the topic.
LRMs have a huge min. range that is easily exploited = risk using them
LRMs suck in trading and that is easily exploited = risk when using them
LRMs have a multitude of passive and active countermeasures = risk using them
Hiding in the back to avoid being forced into direct trades makes you vulnerable to skirmishing light mechs = risk
Having to carry absurd amounts of ammo to compensate for the inherent lack of capability of LRMs means you have more explosive ammo and that = risk
Having to devote tonnage to support equipment (TAG/NARC/Active Probe/Artemis) reduces your capacity to mount defensive weapons = risk
And now about 17 skill points, I wouldn't use more than 9 skill points for 60% because that is more than adiquate to slip locks IF YOU BOTHER TO MOVE.
I pilot heavy mechs most often recently and I can't remember how long it's been since I was actively destroyed by LRMs and I can say with confidence that as long as I don't screw up and end up standing someplace I should be less than a quarter of the vollies fired at me connect AT ALL and those that do connect will probably never land all missiles in the volley on my armor.
And I don't generally use ECM or an AMS and only have 60% radar deprivation.
So 9 skill points for me and what will the Lurmer need? We know range isn't going to serve them well because of a simple fact...
Longer flight duration is longer potential exposure to countermeasure/counterplay. You will get no significant increase in hit ratios from long range shots.
So range is probably a waste of skill points.
Target decay would help as it is directly counter to radar deprivation (and directly countered by) There are 4 (I believe) decay nodes requiring 9 skill points (I belive) . That would be 2.8 seconds of retention or about the duration it takes for an LRM volley to traverse about 450m to a target without any radar deprivation. So useful but hardely equal to the counter measure.
So you say BAP? um...that's also a sensor range booster and does nothing to aid in target lock speed. It's a common misconception that active probes improve lock speed. What they actually do is decrease time to aquire target data.
So BAP is just range in equipment form paid with crits and tonnage instead of skill points. BAP is mainly used to counter close ECM since it negates hostile ECM that is within 240m.
Artemis speeds up lock time but requires LOS and as such is mutually exclusive to radar derp that requires no LOS to engage.
TAG...um wouldn't this equal two things. LOS thus derp does nothing (breaking LOS breaks tag and engages the radar derp)
And...LOS means trades and that is not going to be favorable for the Lurmer.
Most of the options for decreasing lock speeds (without exposing your LRM boat) are carried on other mechs like a friendly TAG or NARC.
And good question....where was the complaint? wasn't I just counter pointing some inaccuracies in your prior post?
And now onto poptarts...Yep missile will go to the last point of lock and that would have been when?
Probably when the poptart was in the proccess of gaining altitude (thus becoming visable to be locked onto). So with the breakneck speed of 160mps you volley charges forward and...radar derp...the poptart has fallen below the cover they are using. So the last point of lock is several meters over where the target has landed.
The poptart will only take damage if they are using inadiquate cover. Essentially for your scenario to work the cover utilized woud probably not even be the height of the mech (or bearly) Because the volley trajectory does not track downward once the target was lost. So the volley trajectory would be arcing downward towards the poptarts former location (veritcal plane) not it's current location below and behind cover (horizontal)
That would be why I did mention that it could work IF you were potentially dangerously close to the poptarts cover. The lock retention (from target decay nodes) could allow for tracking to be maintained long enough to land hits.
And your final closing point....
I agree LRMs are mid range second line offense or area control enemy movement suppression. About the only thing LRMs do is those two effects as actual weapons to kill efficently,well the LRM is a giant failure in that regard.
4
