107 replies to this topic

[Kiiyor]

Dogstar, on 06 March 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

STOMPS ARE NORMAL!!!

Heck yeah they are.

There's lots of reasons for stomps in lots of different games, but (IMHO) MWO's number 1 reason is... positioning.

One team will have a better position earlier, with more mechs facing fewer, or a mech or two will be late to the front line, or someone will flip the hero mode switch in their cockpit and do their utmost to hasten their entry into valhalla... and the battle will be decided before the first mech even falls. Someone will take a lot of damage, become cautious, and won't contribute to enemy armour removal like they normally would, and before you know it, it's 4-12 and you're off to the forums to whine about lights being OP because a Pirahna was the last mech you saw shooting you.

[Mystere]

Bombast, on 06 March 2018 - 12:31 PM, said:

Most of the threads and complaints around here are based on the fact PSR is not skill based, and thus both Tier and MM are broken, in that they don't work and mean nothing. In the light of that, your rant seems a bit... strange.

Most? I have my doubts as there are a not so insignificant number of posts on the topic that seem to suggest the poster does think tiers are a measure of skill. Otherwise, why would they be tier-shaming?

Edited by Mystere, 06 March 2018 - 09:55 PM.

[PocketYoda]

What a load of horse ****..


and they say i write garbage.. This here is some garbage.

[Kubernetes]

Mystere, on 06 March 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

Most? I have my doubts as there are a not so insignificant number of posts on the topic that seem to suggest the poster does think tiers are a measure of skill. Otherwise, why would they be tier-shaming?

Oh come now, my good sir, the people have moved past the laughable childishness of tier-shaming.

We're now on to Jarl's List-shaming.


Regarding tiers, I don't think PGI was necessarily wrong in their thinking.

One would expect that there's a learning curve, and that as a player plays more and more games, his skill level would increase as well. Is it crazy to expect that after a thousand games (or however many it takes to reach tier 1) a player should be proficient enough to perform at a decent level?

Well, I guess it is, because MWO's player base seems to be very different from most, in that we've got a huge (YUGE) population of veteran potatoes who are content to remain that way.

You see the mindset on display here all the time. These people don't care to get better. They blame the game or the meta or the tryhards or clantech or whatever is convenient. It's weird, and it's what breaks the tier system.

[Bombast]

Mystere, on 06 March 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

Most? I have my doubts as there are a not so insignificant number of posts on the topic that seem to suggest the poster does think tiers are a measure of skill. Otherwise, why would they be tier-shaming?

I don't think I've ever seen a case of Tier shaming on this forum, outside maybe someone in T5 demanding something after playing 6 games.

[Cy Mitchell]

The only part I agree with is that stomps are normal. Stomps will happen even when teams of equal skill meet. Look no further than MWOWC or all levels of MRBC where teams of similar skills meet and there are still often 8-0, 8-1 and 8-2 stomps. It only takes one bad decision or one lucky shot to begin the dominoes falling and then it is often impossible to stop the momentum. Nothing is going to change this. Changing from 12v12 to 8v8 will not do it. Changing the PSR and MM will not do it. Changing weapon and Mech balance will not do it. Nothing will stop stomps because it too often is just a matter of one person making a poor choice or one team just coming together better than the other team.

When organized similarly skilled teams matched up against each other still experience one sided stomps on a regular basis then how can we ever expect random teams in QP to have balanced and competitive matches on a regular basis?

Ain't gonna happen, folks!

[Dogstar]

Samial, on 06 March 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

What a load of horse ****..

and they say i write garbage.. This here is some garbage.

Yeah I think I linked some of the crap you've written. You might have good reflexes and be capable of copy-pasting the latest meta build but your understanding of game design is rock bottom.

yrrot, on 06 March 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

Except PGI has stated, multiple times, that PSR isn't designed to be a ranking system. It's designed to separate newer players from more experienced players. "Working as intended".

The trouble is that many players assume tier = skill when they make their complaints about the match maker adn thisd simply isn't true, that's what I'm trying to point out. PGI's statement of their design intent for tiers is irrelevant, what matters is the outcome of their implementation, and that is, bar the few outliers that several people have mentioned, that tier is equivalent to matches played which is equivalent to c-bills earned.

KodiakGW, on 06 March 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

Using WoT, where seasoned vets with completed low teir tanks can go against brand new players, as a reference as to why stomps happen.

Yeah, all I needed to see. Not worth arguing. Can’t wait till he is T1. Then he will change his tune.

Then you either haven't played much WoT are are trying to equate seal clubbing to normal play. Once you get past the starter tiers and hit tier IV/V and beyond there are still many, many stomps. That's because stomps are a feature of the 'cheap-***, use the players as content' game design and have nothing to do with match making.

Edited by Dogstar, 07 March 2018 - 09:59 AM.

[KodiakGW]

Dogstar, on 07 March 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

Then you either haven't played much WoT are are trying to equate seal clubbing to normal play. Once you get past the starter tiers and hit tier IV/V and beyond there are still many, many stomps. That's because stomps are a feature of the 'cheap-***, use the players as content' game design and have nothing to do with match making.

Like I said, not worth arguing. Stop writing and get back to playing so you can get to T1 and then give your assessment when you see multiple 99th percentiles on the opposite team.

Edit: I have an alt account that is T3 like you (with only a couple of mediums owned) so I know why you are “thinking” you are right. You don’t see what those you are railing against are seeing. So therefore, you CANNOT make the same assessment of how things are that we can.

Edited by KodiakGW, 07 March 2018 - 10:22 AM.

[MrMadguy]

I play since Open Beta and I'm experienced enough to distinguish stomps, that happen due to our own mistakes, from stomps, that happen due to skill difference between teams. When enemy team is organized and your team is full of guys, that just hide behind cover and idle - then, you know, something is wrong with matchmaker. And of course, when you have <40% rating, i.e. you belong to Tier 4, but you're in Tier 2 and play against Tier 1 guys - then something is definitely wrong too.

P.S. Being able to openly attack half of enemy team without immediate consequences and to even succeed in most cases - is exact definition of OP. And also when 'Mech, that requires only 10-15 matches to buy, can kill 'Mech, that requires 100-150 matches to buy, 1vs1 - then it's also exact definition of OP.

Edited by MrMadguy, 07 March 2018 - 11:01 AM.

[Prototelis]

MrMadguy, on 07 March 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

And also when 'Mech, that requires only 10-15 matches to buy, can kill 'Mech, that requires 100-150 matches to buy, 1vs1 - then it's also exact definition of OP.

Lights killing assaults is not OP.

It might be the definition of bad luck or **** play, but it is not op.

Stop acting like lights aren't the lowest performing and most difficult class to play in the game. They are the definition of risk vs reward.

Every time a light wins a 1v1 against something bigger it's because the light mech had a drastically better pilot.

Giving you an easy kill because you had to grind for the mech you don't play well would be ridiculous.

[yrrot]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

Every time a light wins a 1v1 against something bigger it's because the light mech had a drastically better pilot.

Eh, I don't know as that's true. An assault getting backstabbed by a light isn't a measure of skill, especially if the light has a insanely high DPS (like, say, 12 MGs). There isn't enough time for the assault to respond in a meaningful way on some matchups. The fact that the light made it to the backfield unopposed is just as much a problem with teamwork and scouting as anything else.

That's also the rock/paper/scissors bit to how they've tried to balance out the weight classes. Most lights are rather underpowered right now, but people like to freak out when they get wrecked by a Piranha.

Though, I guess I'm thinking less of a heads up 1v1 and more of a typical engagement seen in QP.

[mogs01gt]

FupDup, on 06 March 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

When you state that tiers are not correlating to skill, you're confirming that they are in fact broken because that was their intended design purpose. And since that matchmaker is based on a broken tier system, that means the MM is broken by extension.

However, with that being said, MWO somehow still isn't nearly as one-sided stompy as a game like Overwatch despite the fact that the latter has fast respawns, healing, and fast TTK.

It comes down to the inherit issues of that not being able to carry the match like you can in other FPS or "arena" style games.

yrrot, on 07 March 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

Eh, I don't know as that's true. An assault getting backstabbed by a light isn't a measure of skill, especially if the light has a insanely high DPS (like, say, 12 MGs). There isn't enough time for the assault to respond in a meaningful way on some matchups. The fact that the light made it to the backfield unopposed is just as much a problem with teamwork and scouting as anything else.
That's also the rock/paper/scissors bit to how they've tried to balance out the weight classes. Most lights are rather underpowered right now, but people like to freak out when they get wrecked by a Piranha.

Also, lights are typically ignored in MWO. They require more concentration to kill due to their manipulated size and speed, then once you do kill one, you get less cbills for the time invested in killing one. I dont even bother until they're the last mechs or swarming an assault. Of course, half the time they are moving so fast you end up putting some accidental rounds on the mech you're trying to save.

Edited by mogs01gt, 07 March 2018 - 01:31 PM.

[B0oN]

yrrot, on 07 March 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

Eh, I don't know as that's true. An assault getting backstabbed by a light isn't a measure of skill, especially if the light has a insanely high DPS (like, say, 12 MGs). There isn't enough time for the assault to respond in a meaningful way on some matchups. The fact that the light made it to the backfield unopposed is just as much a problem with teamwork and scouting as anything else.

That's also the rock/paper/scissors bit to how they've tried to balance out the weight classes. Most lights are rather underpowered right now, but people like to freak out when they get wrecked by a Piranha.

Though, I guess I'm thinking less of a heads up 1v1 and more of a typical engagement seen in QP.

Wrong, my 4ERPPC Warhawk wrecks lights on a regular basis ... if them lights are reckless/stupid/overdaring I can take up to 3 simultaneously ...
But then again, most assault pilots have the reaction time of a glacier and are quite incompetent at moving/positioning, because why would they need that, eh ... I mean they are driving an assault and are quite easily the undisputed kings (evil laughing to be heard galaxywide at this one ... ) of the battlefield, or aren´t they now ^^

Anyway, tiers mean nothing, just take a look at some guys like Tier 4 Yondu the Ravager ... that dude rips off faces in FP, almost EVIL/KCOM style, but you´d be luckier to find an unicorn in QP before you´d be finding Yondu in there .
I enjoyed the fights against Yondu, that was some proper challenge for once again .

[Prototelis]

yrrot, on 07 March 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

. An assault getting backstabbed by a light isn't a measure of skill
.

Positioning and situational awareness are both skills indispensable to all classes.

[yrrot]

B0oN, on 07 March 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

Wrong, my 4ERPPC Warhawk wrecks lights on a regular basis ... if them lights are reckless/stupid/overdaring I can take up to 3 simultaneously ...

Yes, if you get a chance to shoot and hit a light with 4 PPCs, you can wreck lights. But what's the TTK of a piranha on your back vs your time to rotate around? And that's a Warhawk, consider the 100 tonners. I'm not saying an assault can't beat a light, I'm just saying that most of the time it isn't a heads up fight.

Prototelis, on 07 March 2018 - 01:55 PM, said:

Positioning and situational awareness are both skills indispensable to all classes.

Sure. But a light doesn't have to be an overall better pilot to kill a heavier mech. Backstabbing an Atlas with a Piranha doesn't mean that Piranha is some drastically better pilot. The game is balanced in a way that gives lights some advantages against bigger, slower targets.

[Prototelis]

If you are in an assault, in the back, and you are isolated enough to get ganked you are already in a bad position. You are already losing.

That's bad play.

If soloing in lights was so OP they would represent more than 8% of the queue. Everyone would be doing it. After all, it only takes "15" matches to afford god mode.

I feels you a bit, because Assaults are easily the second hardest class in the game to play. You're pretty much ****** if you get out of position, ****** if you take the very front, and ****** unless you can stay engaged.

[yrrot]

I'm definitely not saying lights are OP. There's like 2-3 strong performers in the class right now that are very strong in their niche.

As far as being out of position,sometimes you start in a bad position, at least in Pug drops. Lights can cross the map faster than an assault can get to the middle/team. Of course, that's also on the team getting strung out.

[MischiefSC]

That stomps are inevitable and normal the more people you have in a match is pretty simple math.

We don't all line up with identical builds and shoot only at the guy in front of us. Even if we were 100% perfectly skill matched we would have most matches end up as a stomp.

It's a product of teams and the nature of casualty clusters and the way mechs only minimally degrade in performance up to death. Thus when 1 or 2 mechs die on a side you have a now significant firepower disparity.

11 v 12 matches are generally the product of poor gameplay, not good matches. Damaged players should cycle back and fresher mechs up front. 11 v 12 generally requires poor coordination on both sides and numerous bad choices from damaged players and fresh players leaving damaged teammates up front.

[UnofficialOperator]

Notice how its always the weak pilots that don't understand stomps are an inevitable result of aggressive play, focus fire and team movement. 12-11 or 12-8 are almost always a result of passive/out of position plays with 1v1 or 2v2 going on in multiple parts of the map.

[Davers]

I can't believe we are still having these discussions after all this time.