107 replies to this topic

[Dogstar]

Samial, on 10 March 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

Just because you don't believe someone does not make it untrue, many speak honestly.. others like you less so. That said all different tiers are mixed in this thing which is bogus and broken..

The thing is you've proven yourself to be biased and/or dishonest multiple times, and the one time you get an opportunity to prove that you aren't...

you pass it by

tier 1 and tier 4 shouldn't be in the same match - pics or it didn't happen

[PocketYoda]

Dogstar, on 11 March 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

The thing is you've proven yourself to be biased and/or dishonest multiple times, and the one time you get an opportunity to prove that you aren't...

you pass it by

tier 1 and tier 4 shouldn't be in the same match - pics or it didn't happen

How the **** do you prove a person is in what tier?

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 06 March 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

However, with that being said, MWO somehow still isn't nearly as one-sided stompy as a game like Overwatch despite the fact that the latter has fast respawns, healing, and fast TTK.

Fairly true, when you have an awful team on Overwatch, but it is surprising how much a single player actually working with the team even though the team has absolutely no cohesion can actually turn a fight around.

In an absolute clusterduck of a situation our team was pushed all the way back and making our final stand. Not sure why I'm saying our team, I was pretty much alone with random people, but anyway. With the team backed into a corner people seemed more interested in trying to get fast kills than anything else. I had a support character, the Zarya. I kept giving everyone shields as often as I could and sooner or later the team's crazed blitz actually began to push back. I moved up with them, taking pot shots when I could but effectively I spent my time twitch-shooting shields onto every teammate as their shields dropped and my ability to do so recharged and for every 7 or so deaths they had, we might lose one guy and I was pretty proud of myself. Soon as I died we began losing ground again but when I got back to the semi-front line and began pumping shields out again we managed to push to the victory; of course by then someone else had jumped on as mercy and Zarya and Mercy working together, if no one kills them, is pretty damn overpowered.

[PoohPuss]

In my experience op is underestimating the length of time it takes to advance in tiers, which I find many other old-timers do aswell. The skill-gap between starting players and first-time tier-3 players are for the most part huge.

There are some that just get it and do awesome at once. Some preserve their game-stats to advance faster and make op's prediction true. But most players don't. For many players the advancement takes several weeks of fairly dedicated gameing.

In other words, tiers does represent player-skill for the most part. But only to a point. Top-skill dedicated players, or very long-time players, may have progressed so far beyond that point that they no longer perceive the difference.

Something to be aware of is that many long-time players tend to forget the effort and time required to get good. Some tends to think that good advice means an instantly improved player (or a lazy player if the assumption proves wrong). They are wrong. Most cases where this isn't true, the new player is already very good at other FPS's that's got translatable skill-requirements. I think maybe op is representative of the abovementioned forgetfulness.

I find everyting else in op very good points tho.

Edited by PoohPuss, 11 March 2018 - 05:33 AM.

[Koniving]

Far as tier not equaling skill... No, it really doesn't. However it isn't a straight forward EXP bar either.

You do have some reasonably skilled and/or long time players in tier 4 (and tier 5, I've met someone who has been playing for three years in tier 5 which he began in and never got out of. However with gameplay at 11 frames per second and a refusal to use the fast-track method of LRMs [quick way to dart to tier 3 in no time], he's never been able to get out of it.)

The fewer the matches you have, the more wildly you can swing up (and down if you suddenly do awful). Getting out of tier 5 in a few matches is easy if you do really well, and with each successive match you will gradually turn from sand in a gust to mud in a rainstorm going nowhere fast.

For those wanting to make it to tier 1 quickly, with a new account just do 'perfect' or as close to it as possible and you might beat the current claimed record of tier one in 200-to-300 matches. I'm not particularly good but after some recent jackassery, I set about using my first alt to make it to tier 1. 173 matches in, I've made it to tier 2 and this is with my insistence on using "My builds." You know the heresy that people hate.

If I tried a B-line like that for tier one with my current profile... Well lets say climbing back up to tier 3 might take about three months of pretty consistent playing... Tier 2, not sure, probably years to get back there. But it's taken me over a year to get down to where I am.

Which brings up another point: It goes up and down. Does it go by skill? No, the team literally carries you either way. Do great and lose, and your skill might get you a tiny spec upward. Do terrible and win and you'll still go up higher than the player that did great but lost.

But the longer you take to figure out if you want to go forward or backward in the tiers, the harder it will be to move. Imagine you start walking on solid cement. But then it becomes wet cement and softens and as it does the distance toour goal becomes longer and longer like one of those endless stair cases. And with any hesitation in going forward or backward you will find yourself sinking deeper and deeper until at some point it hardens again and you're stuck.

Once you hit about 3,000 matches, you'll spend months to years trying to change tiers.

Does tier equal skill?
No.
But like age, changing tiers gets harder the 'older' you get in terms of match count.

[El Bandito]

Even Overwatch has just as many one-sided rolls as MWO, and there are millions play online every day. People just need to pull up their frilly stockings, tighten their thongs, and stop being such a pansy.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 March 2018 - 06:48 AM.

[Nightbird]

Whether it occurs or not is different from the rate of occurrence, unless you want to say:

MM1: Odds of (0-3):12 50%
MM2: Odds of (0-3):12 25%

MM1 and MM2 are equal because stomps happen in both!!!!!

[Nightbird]

As I mentioned in a post a while back, I can to the limits of mathematical statistics minimize the number of stomps by creating as even as possible teams of even skill. The formula will weigh any data available, from map name, game mode, loadout, chassis, player's past stats. (I have no problems with weighing a chassis and loadout higher in one mode and lower in another e.g. skirmish vs conquest) The weight of each of these factors will not come from guesstimates, but a statistical model that actually calculates everything and gives weight estimates that will mathematically minimize the stomps. It doesn't mean that stomps will stop, but the occurrence will be minimized.

Edited by Nightbird, 11 March 2018 - 07:11 AM.

[Koniving]

Dogstar, on 11 March 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

The thing is you've proven yourself to be biased and/or dishonest multiple times, and the one time you get an opportunity to prove that you aren't...

you pass it by

tier 1 and tier 4 shouldn't be in the same match - pics or it didn't happen

Easy. How about Dev statements?

2015.
A Tier 1 player will never play against a Tier 4 or Tier 5 player.
(Which is funny considering later changes)
2017.
They tightened the restrictions, but noted this is not a permanent change.
This of course would be an IDEAL situation... tier 1 and 2 can screw each other and leave the other tiers alone. But...nope.

Someone posted a 2017/2018 thing set later in which a dev states it expands tier 1 from facing down to tier 3 to tier 1 facing down to tier 4 in order to fix issues with match wait times.

Despite having seen it earlier in the month, I haven't been able to find it again under Tina Benoit, Alexander Garden, or Matt Newman's posts and it is not listed under Inner Sphere news. So either its hidden in patchnotes or somewhere else...

I invite someone to bring that here as I wasn't able to find it again. Considering what I see in the link above, either someone that's been badgering me over the past month isn't tier 1 despite being in the top blah blah blah on Jarl's list, OR... the link above is false. Bring forth the proof of either so I can light my victory cigar.

Edited by Koniving, 11 March 2018 - 06:57 AM.

[Extra Guac]

Samial, on 09 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

With Assaults agility issues its not skill to get behind one even a skilled one is dead to a average light pilot.. Lights are not op.. machine gun boating is op.

And if matchmaker is not matching customers of the same level then yes its broken.. Sorry but true.

Your first point is very reductive. It takes skill to read the map, find the isolated assault mech, and get behind him without being seen by him or any of his teammates.

Yes machine gun boating is OP but I think the real answer is that clan lights are OP. IS mechs are relatively competitive vs clans in the other weight classes, but they'll never be competitive vs clan lights. Not when clan lights have vastly superior engine tech (and LFE's don't really help the balance issue in the light weight class), ridiculous hardpoints, machine guns for 1/2 the tonnage, etc.

[Dogstar]

Well on my clan tier 3 account (Mechatankzilla) I've definitely played a game with Tarogato at around 10am UK time(??) so tier 1 and tier 3 definitely meet which is contra the 2017 link above from Koniving.

What we need is for tier to be displayed in the pre-game screen so that people can see what they're getting into.

PoohPuss, on 11 March 2018 - 05:23 AM, said:

In my experience op is underestimating the length of time it takes to advance in tiers, which I find many other old-timers do aswell. The skill-gap between starting players and first-time tier-3 players are for the most part huge.

That's a very good point although as to my personal struggle my IS account, which is the one I started playing the game on, was very slow to drag itself all the way out of tier 5, across tier 4, and finally dipping into the bottom of tier 3. Whereas my clan account was already at the top of tier 4 after 8(?) matches and just pushed into tier 3 soon after the cadet bonus expired. I've got nowhere since then though...

Koniving, on 11 March 2018 - 05:33 AM, said:

Far as tier not equaling skill... No, it really doesn't. However it isn't a straight forward EXP bar either.

<snip>

But the longer you take to figure out if you want to go forward or backward in the tiers, the harder it will be to move. Imagine you start walking on solid cement. But then it becomes wet cement and softens and as it does the distance toour goal becomes longer and longer like one of those endless stair cases. And with any hesitation in going forward or backward you will find yourself sinking deeper and deeper until at some point it hardens again and you're stuck.

Once you hit about 3,000 matches, you'll spend months to years trying to change tiers.

Does tier equal skill?
No.
But like age, changing tiers gets harder the 'older' you get in terms of match count.

That's also an excellent point. I think that those of us who try out an alt account and see the tier shooting up in the first few battles don't appreciate that an old account with thousands of battles takes a lot longer to change - that's probably some sort of design flaw there.


I still stick by my statement that the match maker is not broken in that it attempts to match players with relatively similar tiers of wealth and experience/number of battles and that stomps are not caused by matchmaking.

Edited by Dogstar, 11 March 2018 - 02:19 PM.

[EnochsBook]

Dogstar, on 11 March 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Well on my clan tier 3 account (Mechatankzilla) I've definitely played a game with Tarogato at around 10am UK time(??) so tier 1 and tier 3 definitely meet which is contra the 2017 link above from Koniving.

Yes, when I was in tier 3 I used to frequently get matched with or against tier 1 players (theB33f, Baradul, Spheroid, the list goes on). That happened several times per session.

Dogstar, on 11 March 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

I still stick by my statement that the match maker is not broken in that it attempts to match players with relatively similar tiers of wealth and that stomps are not caused by matchmaking.

I suppose it is working as intended, considering it is supposed to keep brand new players from seeing veterans too often, although it could be argued that's not working very well considering it is very easy to re-roll an account.
I would say that the problem with the MM is that it's kind of misguided in the way that it tries to balance teams.

I think it's fair to say that the MM could be leagues better.

[LordNothing]

El Bandito, on 11 March 2018 - 05:51 AM, said:

Even Overwatch has just as many one-sided rolls as MWO, and there are millions play online every day. People just need to pull up their frilly stockings, tighten their thongs, and stop being such a pansy.

tehe

[Khobai]

Quote

Even Overwatch has just as many one-sided rolls as MWO, and there are millions play online every day. People just need to pull up their frilly stockings, tighten their thongs, and stop being such a pansy.

the difference is overwatch is actually a good game with millions of players that play every day. And they have fun even when they lose.

balance isnt MWO's #1 problem. it never has been. MWO's #1 problem is that it just isnt fun to play anymore.

people will play through and endure balance issues if the games fun. but when your game is both unbalanced and not fun theres a huge problem.

The game is just not fulfilling to play. The gamemodes are bad. The gameplay is stagnant. We have to constantly beg for new maps and actual content. And Solaris?! lol...

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2018 - 04:44 PM.

[El Bandito]

Dogstar, on 11 March 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Well on my clan tier 3 account (Mechatankzilla) I've definitely played a game with Tarogato at around 10am UK time(??) so tier 1 and tier 3 definitely meet which is contra the 2017 link above from Koniving.

TBF, T1 can be paired with T3, if the matchmaker releases the valve after failing to find enough players. Before T1 could be paired with T4 when the valve was loose, but after their announcements only up to T3. That's how it should work anyway.

Khobai, on 11 March 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

the difference is overwatch is actually a good game with millions of players that play every day

balance isnt MWO's #1 problem. it never has been. MWO's #1 problem is that it just isnt fun to play anymore.

people will play through and endure balance issues if the games fun. but when your game is both unbalanced and not fun theres a problem.

I personally wouldn't call Overwatch more fun than MWO, cause I find it more frustrating than MWO, if anything. I mostly play OW for the lootboxes, and events. Then again, I am in an organized unit in MWO where we also socialize.

[Khobai]

Quote

I personally wouldn't call Overwatch more fun than MWO

you might not.

but the fact remains millions of people play Overwatch. MWO not so much.

MWO peaks at what? 1500 players? lol.

so yeah I stand by what I said. More people enjoy playing Overwatch than MWO.

MWO's problem is that people dont want to play it. Because its not fun at all anymore. its bad. like really bad. And thats the honest truth.

And yeah the balance issues contribute. But they arnt the #1 problem. The problem is the gamemodes just arnt fun. Theyre shallow and insubstantial. You dont exit out of a game with a fulfilling experience. Playing this game has become a soulsucking mindnumbing experience where the biggest payoff is pressing alt-F4.

And Solaris isnt going to change that. Just make it worse IMO.

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2018 - 04:54 PM.

[Dogstar]

EnochsBook, on 11 March 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

I think it's fair to say that the MM could be leagues better.

Dear lord yes, I absolutely agree.

[Brain Cancer]

Koniving, on 11 March 2018 - 05:33 AM, said:

Does tier equal skill?
No.
But like age, changing tiers gets harder the 'older' you get in terms of match count.

Tier increasingly becomes irrelevant to skill as time played increased, thanks to the positive bias of the PSR system. That is, every tier above 5 is increasingly "muddy" with bad but carried players. T1-2 is well and truly past the point of "skilled player" being the reliable result of seeing such players.

[Dragonporn]

Khobai, on 11 March 2018 - 04:45 PM, said:

you might not.

but the fact remains millions of people play Overwatch. MWO not so much.

MWO peaks at what? 1500 players? lol.

so yeah I stand by what I said. More people enjoy playing Overwatch than MWO.

MWO's problem is that people dont want to play it. Because its not fun at all anymore. its bad. like really bad. And thats the honest truth.

And yeah the balance issues contribute. But they arnt the #1 problem. The problem is the gamemodes just arnt fun. Theyre shallow and insubstantial. You dont exit out of a game with a fulfilling experience. Playing this game has become a soulsucking mindnumbing experience where the biggest payoff is pressing alt-F4.

And Solaris isnt going to change that. Just make it worse IMO.

Generally speaking, to each their own. People prefer OW to MWO because of accessibility and giant advertisement campaign. Marketing always works wonders. I've tried OW for a week or so, got bored after 30 minutes of play every time, not to mention ultra-toxic community and generally lots of kids running around.

Meanwhile in MWO I have blasts of fun every single time I play. It's fun to be winning, it's fun to be losing, community (at least in-game one) is amazing. MWO gameplay is very unique. OW is literally mash of TF and Moba ideas, we also have clones like Paladins and few others I'm sure. People generally like easy stuff, to jump in, have fast-paced twitchy fix and get some lootboxes with shinies. Slow gameplay with lots of things to manage, not just simple pew-pew with ultimates is usually less appealing to masses. Too much stuff to pay attention to, it drives people away. Balance is fine, and gameplay can be appreciated by only few, sadly, although... that may be a good thing in fact.

Edited by Dragonporn, 12 March 2018 - 12:40 AM.

[Mech Walesa]

oh man! i've played maybe 150 matches so far but this is exacly what happens. well said
i still love this game

Kiiyor, on 06 March 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

Heck yeah they are.

There's lots of reasons for stomps in lots of different games, but (IMHO) MWO's number 1 reason is... positioning.

One team will have a better position earlier, with more mechs facing fewer, or a mech or two will be late to the front line, or someone will flip the hero mode switch in their cockpit and do their utmost to hasten their entry into valhalla... and the battle will be decided before the first mech even falls. Someone will take a lot of damage, become cautious, and won't contribute to enemy armour removal like they normally would, and before you know it, it's 4-12 and you're off to the forums to whine about lights being OP because a Pirahna was the last mech you saw shooting you.

Edited by Lech Walesa, 12 March 2018 - 03:57 AM.