28 replies to this topic

[InvictusLee]

So in my efforts to research LosTech, I couldnt find any specific tech that was lost. Just vague allusions to setting humanity back to the stonage. Which could be true.


My question is, What tech, precisely, was lost? What battle mechs, what facilities, what ships?
Not all star league era mechs became lostech during the age of war, but which did?

Please enlighten me :3

[Karl Streiger]

I'm pretty sure with the BS of the ClanInvention the LosTech - Postapocalyptic setting of BattleTech is the only LosTech.

The Age of War was prior to the founding of the Star League, the Succession Wars had a decline of technology
You can say that all the fancy StarLeague stuff became LostTech, GaussRifles, XL Engines, ER Laser Technology and much more.
But again its a very very bad plot - a ER-Laser is not much more complicated when compared to a Laser.
You can open the TRO 3058 and then you found LosTech:
Pillager, Thunder Hawk, Dragon Fire, Enflield, Maelstrom just to name some.

Several factorys were also destroyed during the First Succession Wars. There have to be a complete List somewhere.

[MeiSooHaityu]

OP, I was having a difficult time finding a good comprehensive list, but as a good rule of thumb, I'd say...

• Pulse Lasers
  
• Extended Range Lasers
  
• LBX A/Cs
  
• Ultra A/Cs
  
• Streak SRMs
  
• Double Heat Sinks
  
• XL Engines
  
• AMS
  
• ECM (although a very crude and rudimentary system was developed in 3025 called Electronic Warfare Equipment* (EW) by the Capellan Confederation for use in their new Raven light BattleMech (also used in the Cataphract 0X).
  
• BAP
  
• TAG
  
• Double Heat Sinks
  
• I think Ferro armor and Endo Internals too.

and honestly, probably many more which I am forgetting. Essentially, any era before the uncovery of the Helm Memory Core was basic lasers, SRMs and LRMs, and basic ballistics for weapons, and no real fancy equipment.

*PS the EW system mentioned above combined the functionality of ECM and BAP, but had poor performance and was really darn heavy (I think 7 tons). I figured I'd mention these details down here instead of the list.

Karl Streiger, on 07 February 2018 - 03:39 AM, said:

But again its a very very bad plot - a ER-Laser is not much more complicated when compared to a Laser.

I look at it as, an ER laser might need some components that are more intricate or require better refinement of components to be able to extend the range farther than what would normally be possible. With the destruction of factories, and the loss of knowledge of such techniques, the ER laser was no longer possible (until Helm Memory Core uncovering started to reintroduce some of that knowledge to the inner sphere).

[Bombast]

-Endo-Steel (Zero-G Manufacturing)
-Ferro-Fibrous
-Double Heat Sinks (Crystalline Polymer)
-Null System (Stealth)
-ECM
-BAP
-TAG
-Pulse Lasers
-ER Lasers
-Ultra Autocannons
-LB-X Autocannons (Endo-Steel, Zero-G Manufacturing)
-Streak Missiles
-XL Engines (Crystalline Polymer)
-B-2000 Computer, High-End Computing, etc
-AMS
-Jump Drive Mechanics (Jump Drive production continues)
-Warshps*

I believe that's most of the specific stuff. When it comes to non-military stuff, you can generally assume everything took a hit.

*Warships are sometimes considered lostech, but the technology to make them never really went away, just the industrial base to support them and the will to even bother trying.

Edited by Bombast, 07 February 2018 - 07:22 AM.

[Metus regem]

As others have pointed out, it's not so much lost tech, rather the loss of the ability to manufacture said items and an understanding on how to maintain them.

For me, the whole ClanTech advance doesn't fit right, they hulled up, traveled to a set of worlds, started to rebuild, fell apart again, left again, moved to more new planets, set up again and some how managed to make everything that much better technologically speaking in under 300 years? I don't buy that...

I mean look at the Timber Wolf, they went from SLDF era Endo S, FF, wepons and XL engines to Clan Spec Endo S, FF and XL engines, weapons, design, testing, combat testing and production in under 200 years since they left the IS, that is complete BS, it's not possible really... /shrug

As I've gotten older I feel that the Clans should've been pushing IS Civil War era tech, with derivative Omnimech versions SLDF designs...having tested such an alternate history with my group, we found it made the 3050 invasion much more balanced.

[InvictusLee]

Facinating! Thanks for the answer guys!

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Metus regem, on 07 February 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

For me, the whole ClanTech advance doesn't fit right, they hulled up, traveled to a set of worlds, started to rebuild, fell apart again, left again, moved to more new planets, set up again and some how managed to make everything that much better technologically speaking in under 300 years? I don't buy that...

I mean look at the Timber Wolf, they went from SLDF era Endo S, FF, wepons and XL engines to Clan Spec Endo S, FF and XL engines, weapons, design, testing, combat testing and production in under 200 years since they left the IS, that is complete BS, it's not possible really... /shrug

200 years ago for us the Industrial Revolution was still getting spooled up and we had just gotten the first successful human blood transfusion performed, let alone over 20 years to go 'til the first telegraph happens. If they had enough infrastructure taken with them or produced in a timely fashion then minor improvements on existing technology isn't that big of a stretch. If anything the IS' utter stagnation is way more unbelievable, even with all the infrastructure sabotage.

[Karl Streiger]

IdToaster, on 07 February 2018 - 11:44 PM, said:

200 years ago for us the Industrial Revolution was still getting spooled up and we had just gotten the first successful human blood transfusion performed, let alone over 20 years to go 'til the first telegraph happens. If they had enough infrastructure taken with them or produced in a timely fashion then minor improvements on existing technology isn't that big of a stretch. If anything the IS' utter stagnation is way more unbelievable, even with all the infrastructure sabotage.

That totalitarian fascists are great in development of new weapons is known.
However the feudal driven systems of the Inner Sphere are not so much different - but the Clans developed only a couple of years after the second exodus tech that was improved compared to the SL tech. This doesn't make as much sense as the ability of the IS to loose all that knowledge.

Frankly we have here two complete different storys / dimensions. You can have the Clan Development but you can't have the decline of Tech in the IS in the same dimension, or you can have the tech decline of the IS but you can't have the clan improvements. (Not to mention that with the helm memory core suddenlty the IS was able to produce all that stuff.... out of nothing? (first XL reactor in 3027)
This means that ComStar must have clensed all memory drives in the 1st successionwar - ok given the fact that BT was science of the 80s - some kilobyte of computer storrage was as big as a garrage - you can imagine that it is simpler to destroy such devices.

but today? ComStar would need to find every single portable micro sd device....... lets call it HPG virus deus ex machina

[MeiSooHaityu]

I think one thing to keep in mind here is that the Star League possessed much of the knowledge of advanced tech (hence why the Helm Memory Core housed a lot of that info). The Star League (even through it's war and conflict) is still the repository for that knowledge, so they wouldn't lose that tech unless all the Star League facilities, installations, and/or warships were destroyed (which they weren't). That is why the Star League (later the Clans) didn't lose any tech. Maybe it halted it's advancement a bit (until the Clans were established and prospering), but it didn't lose it.

As for the Inner Sphere, with 90% of the Star League gone, and their installations destroyed or looted by the Exodus, the only way the tech even remotely lived on was in the factory and research facility computers. Once the Succession Wars started destroying all of those, that tech was lost. The 10% remaining Star League still had the knowledge of that tech, but they became Comstar and they were not ones to share (because they still had hopes of becoming the Inner Sphere's savior one day as well).

I think there is enough here to at least make the idea of what happened plausible. Sure, that info could have been backed up on an SD card or portable HD or something, and saved, but I think we need to look at a couple things.

The IS may not have fully comprehended the extent of what the Succession Wars would bring. That tech is only useful in the factories making it or the installations researching it. If those were wiped out unexpectedly, no one might have had a grand back up plan.

Also, BT exists in it's own bubble. It is an advanced society with FTL travel and communications, but with no cell phones lol. This isn't a dig, but a reality of the time when the universe was thought up and written. For that reason, we have to treat it as it's own unique quasi-techno universe, and can't really use our reality to explain their tech. SD Cards weren't around when this was written, so we can't assume they would have SD cards in the future. It is the reality of Sci-Fi, it always dates itself eventually.

Lastly, It's just a story. It may have holes, but watch Cinema Sins, and they will take the best Hollywood movies and poke holes in the plot. It's hard to think of every possibility when creating the backstory for a universe, so close enough is often as close as one can get. Could all the Star League Era tech been backed up and saved instead of being left in their facilities and destroyed? Sure...was it?...No. OOps. . At least (in my eyes) it is plausible enough that it doesn't bother me. I think with most Sci-Fi story telling, that is about as close as you can get.

[Jonathan8883]

A number of worlds had to be abandoned when terraforming or environmental control equipment broke down. Many of those worlds were dependent on parts & technicians from the Terran Hegemony.

In one of the Gray Death Legion books (#2?), it was commented on that someone was from a low-tech world because he was wearing glasses. That meant they didn't have the widely distributed tech base required to do corrective eye surgery.
Buuuut they still had fusion-powered agromechs. Go figure.

[Karl Streiger]

MeiSooHaityu, on 08 February 2018 - 03:46 AM, said:

The IS may not have fully comprehended the extent of what the Succession Wars would bring. That tech is only useful in the factories making it or the installations researching it. If those were wiped out unexpectedly, no one might have had a grand back up plan.

As said on its own the post apocalyptic setting is great and even plausible. Your feudal lords press one glorious attack after another. They don't care much about the quality only numbers. When planet X doesn't provide 10 tanks per month and he asks why and they tell him that there is some shortage in superconduction storrage banks he sends LOKI or similar to dispatch you.
Instead you simple take worse equipment - and suddenly you don't have the extra damage of the ER-Laser but just a normal laser with a less sophisticated system.

hm i think I can show you the issue with a Ford Focus. I think every one has seen a Ford Focus in his life.

ok - we have 3 models the RS the ST and the ST-Line
RS - with a 350 PS engine and all the nice stuff is Star League
ST - with 250 PS engine is the average standard stuff
ST-Line with 140 PS engine is the clan tech.

Wut? Why is the low engine version ClanTech in this example?
Simple instead of producing a expensive engine - they simpe remove all that stuff that is not needed for driving, airbags, seatbelts, additional seats, air condition, interior. windows - maybe even the doors and you reduce the size of the fuel tank

This light weight ST-Line might have the same or even better performance compared to the RS.
Although you really don't want to drive through rain,snow and not in the summer - and you really don't want to have a crash, lucky your fuel don't last for long tours.

[Koniving]

November11th, on 06 February 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

So in my efforts to research LosTech, I couldnt find any specific tech that was lost. Just vague allusions to setting humanity back to the stonage. Which could be true.


My question is, What tech, precisely, was lost? What battle mechs, what facilities, what ships?
Not all star league era mechs became lostech during the age of war, but which did?

Please enlighten me :3

Virtually all tech considered level 2 and 3 was lost and "gradually" restored post 3030, some reappearing as late as 3093 (to note: our current year is 3058 to 3062).

Examples:
Double heatsinks.
XL engines.
True body motion capture piloting (robot jocks style, weapons fired by twitching fingers as if pulling triggers; imagine this control scheme in melee... also imagine standing with just a waist-brace holding you in place; this probably had just as many problems as it had merits).
Streaks.
NARC.
180mm autocannons (specifically the Tomodzuru Mount Type 20, new ones haven't been manufactured for several hundred years, just parts; one of the reasons the "new" Crucis type V chassis Hunchbacks 4 and 5 seriesuse Kali-Yama Big Bores at 120mm instead and why so many refits of the Hunchback 4 series Komiyaba Type VII chassis existed due to being unable to replace this precious large caliber AC/20...one of the largest in the IS, with each shell being roughly 4 damage).
Ultra/5 ACs.
LBX (while no longer produced until after 3030, it still existed).
This list could get into over a hundred items long. Some quad mechs are also among them. Many mechs we currently play also stopped being produced.

Annihilator never made it off the blueprint stage, until a secret Clan spy organization which established itself as the IS Mercenary Group called Wolf's Dragoons came with some old Star League schematics and the need to produce some IS-style mechs of formidable capability with a unique flare that could help to quickly establish themselves as a force to be respected and get them into high places. Soon mecha godzilla laid waste to some things and everyone's like "WHOA O_O! Wanna work for us?"

Mei-- It is true that they do use "FAX" among other things, but they do actually have something akin to cell phones, you're just not gonna find them in "Most" novels that aren't set on the most technologically advanced worlds. Cell phones require a network of wireless towers. This is an expensive amount of infrastructure, and most of the novels are set on front line planets or in the boondocks (aka the periphery). The only periphery planet I know of that has what could be referred to as a cell phone network is the Marian Hegemony... though their version of cell phones are basically tablets with 5 inch screens that can do video calls, handle finances and electronic transfers, keep data storage and wirelessly hack simple devices (somehow...can't imagine why keypads would have a wireless functionality at all). Written 1989.

Not sure why it sounds so familiar. Huh.
I do admit, however, it is about three quarters of an inch thick, and has a data card slot 3 1/2 inches wide and as deep as 2 fingers...

Marian Hegemony is a Periphery system that was born of Steiner origins, and makes a large financial killing by selling aftermarket modifications for existing battlemechs. Some specific examples, include the original 4H, 4P, 4J and 5H refit kits for the Hunchback's Komiyaba Type VII chassis. Note I say original, though only the 4H and 5H were natively conceived, because when Kali-Yama Weapons Industries acquired the license to the Hunchback design after obtaining the schematics from the same source many Great Houses 'purchased' rediscovered ancient knowledge (the Helm Memory Core and mercenary-escorted merchants), and under Marik financial backing, they began construction on the new, slightly larger Hunchback 5 series using their own Crucis Type V chassis. The greatest benefit was this Hunchback was big enough to carry double heatsinks. Shortly after, they rebuilt the "classic" Hunchback everyone knew and loved... slightly bigger, suitable to carrying double heatsinks without having to strap them on the exterior, and factory produced for the first time ever, variants besides the "4G" which until then was the only factory produced variant.

That put a huge dent into Marian Hegemony's refitting enterprises, and so as a big "F-U" in retaliation, they came up with the 5H refit. It was surprisingly popular. They also develop numerous other refits. Most H and H2 variants are associated as original refit designs created by them. Want a quality refit? We got your fix. It even comes with instructions. No warranty.

Ultimately though, the universe of Battletech is akin to Game of Thrones meets Firefly. The closer you get to the capital worlds, the higher the tech is... the farther out you go, well to be frank there are planets where water is rationed between consumption and use as fuel (fuel cell engines), planets that are like the wild west, and planets where dinosaurs are a much bigger concern than whether or not you get a battlemech. One planet has a Roman Empire theme, including slaves, brush helmets and spears with roman-themed cosmetic mods to mechs and tanks alike. Another, Dustbowl, has a game found in many bars (and indeed the Battletech cartoon's second episode) that in concept is literally Gundam's "Gunpla" game, though its first mention is in 1987 over 26 years before Gundam Build Fighters put it into a TV show.

Said episode of Battletech also has a jumpjetting Centurion...



Many planets exist where they have never seen Battlemechs before, only for pirates to suddenly come out and be 'gods'.

Edited by Koniving, 08 February 2018 - 11:44 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Not for nothing but I think I just got a nerdgasm. Thanks Koniving.

That's some rich lore right there! We could really use a game with that level of detail.

Edited by MechaBattler, 08 February 2018 - 02:32 PM.

[Metus regem]

I've said every damn time you bust out that Megasaur image....

I sure hope it bought that Bushwacker dinner first.... I mean that Megasaur looks like it's having too much fun with that Bushwacker....

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 08 February 2018 - 02:49 PM, said:

I've said every damn time you bust out that Megasaur image....

I sure hope it bought that Bushwacker dinner first.... I mean that Megasaur looks like it's having too much fun with that Bushwacker....

That's what that is!

Been trying to place it. Never thought Bushwacker.

MechaBattler, on 08 February 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:

Not for nothing but I think I just got a nerdgasm. Thanks Koniving.

That's some rich lore right there! We could really use a game with that level of detail.

Battletech by harebrained is trying for it. The Argo has that level of detail to it. Debatable on much else.

I am working on short stories though. Some original machines and techs (police and civilian grade) as well as taking another crack at the Loader King (Dont share Justin Kase's loader king concept for a suggestion. So many issues with the biggest being the crane as a lift hoist (when the lift hoists are specifically stated to be in the elongated arms just like the competitor the Powerman. Also as someone that has used forklifts as well as ceiling and vehicle mounted cranes the crane setup would be useless for hauling cargo in that form as you would damage both the cargo and the mech. Also... Forklifts are a type of hoisting mechanism, which is how Powerman and loader king arms are supposed to work like).

Might compare my concept with a Powerman here after work if anyone would like. Would really appreciate genuine feedback on it. (Also for megamek players to help me with campaigns to base short stories on. Like mw2's intro, I want to base my short stories on actual gameplay.)

I have found something pretty wild too.

Techs built with ALL the rules in mind look... very different. For example a mech with an additional two tons of common equipment to manipulate satellites and hack gate controls as well as interact with reckon drones and remote sensor beacons. Gun emplacements with ammo truck convoys rushing to ressuply them. Atlases hooked to coolant trucks. Etc.

Edited by Koniving, 08 February 2018 - 04:36 PM.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 08 February 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

That's what that is!

Been trying to place it. Never thought Bushwacker.

How could you not?!? The torso is unique in all of battletech... only two mechs have ever been designed like that... The Bushwacker and The Gauntlet....

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 08 February 2018 - 04:35 PM, said:

How could you not?!? The torso is unique in all of battletech... only two mechs have ever been designed like that... The Bushwacker and The Gauntlet....

Story reads agromech

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 08 February 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

Story reads agromech

Never read the story, just looked at the shoulder stump and torso, only the Bushwacker has both of those shapes, the Gauntlet only has the torso shape.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 08 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

Never read the story, just looked at the shoulder stump and torso, only the Bushwacker has both of those shapes, the Gauntlet only has the torso shape.

Mentions the Megasaur chomping on an agromech. Also at the time of this image's creation the Bushwacker was among the twistless mechs. That is to say it had no separation of torso and pelvis, between the cartoon 3d rendering and the tro art. Supposedly that didn't change till mw3 more than 2 years after this image/entry was made. Though in the same year this look began to replace this original.

Original

And this

To this


I do agree with you though the curves are perfect for the newer models. The rear not so much

Actually looks strongly like the old toy. Shoulder shape is perfect. But then torso and pelvis separation for twisting.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 08 February 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

Mentions the Megasaur chomping on an agromech. Also at the time of this image's creation the Bushwacker was among the twistless mechs. That is to say it had no separation of torso and pelvis, between the cartoon 3d rendering and the tro art. Supposedly that didn't change till mw3 more than 2 years after this image/entry was made. Though in the same year this look began to replace this original.

Original

And this

To this


I do agree with you though the curves are perfect for the newer models. The rear not so much

Actually looks strongly like the old toy. Shoulder shape is perfect. But then torso and pelvis separation for twisting.

Two words:

Artistic
License

To my mind it is clearly a Bushwacker get bushwacked....

Edit:

Fun little fact about the Bushwacker, it never got the no torso twist rule / quirk like the Nova and Ebon Jaguar. So that means she could always twist... also there are two official images for it from the same TRO, the cover art, that you showed last and the line art that you showed first, now as the miniatures look closer to the cover art, I'm inclined to treat the line art as unofficial.

Edited by Metus regem, 08 February 2018 - 07:55 PM.