74 replies to this topic

[EnochsBook]

I don't buy the "alpha damage will be king in Solaris" line.
The only reason alpha damage is so prevalent in 12v12 is because once you've dumped 2 or 3 alphas and are at 90% heat you can duck back behind cover or hide behind your allies. You can't do that in Solaris. What are you going to do against a LBX40 Warhammer hugging your face when you're at 90% heat and are only mounting heavy lasers?
There's a reason why almost no popular duelling build is laser-based.

DPS and heat efficiency will be king.

[PocketYoda]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 15 March 2018 - 10:21 PM, said:

Are you guys actually paying attention to what is being said? There can be different leagues and divisions. If there aren't I'd be very surprised. If everyone is the same league, say the starter league, they will most certainly get farmed. Absolutely get farmed. There is nothing wrong in having hardcore leagues for those people who want a little more out of it without a ton of extra coding and dev work.

With the logic of, "if they don't cater to casuals, no one will play.", I claim BS. They did that for Faction and they still didn't play. Any game which tips the scale to casuals over advanced play tanks on itself. Balancing an entire game against someone who plays 2 hours a week over someone who glues themselves to it whenever they can is silly if you are trying to actually make a good game and not out for a quick cash grab and then wash your hands of it.

casuals have quick play. That's about all they can handle. They don't like to coordinate with others (for the most part) and don't like using voice comms, on the average.

SO, have regular Solaris and then have hardcore league. This doesn't effect casuals at all. In fact, it will keep the better players away from them which is obviously what they want. Mind you, they won't get all that better because they aren't being constantly challenged, learning from more advanced players so they plateau regarding their skill level.

If people didn't like a challenge in gaming, there wouldn't be 30k active people on EVE right now. Different game, but principles of gaming which challenge the player base are more rewarding an experience, thereby keep people playing and coming back to play due to game commitment.

PGI had an opportunity to create a full mechwarrior and strategic Btech experience, went the easy road, tanking faction warfare, which is a shame.

I doubt there will be, quickplay is all shoved into the same groups why would you think Solaris would be any different.

It'll be the same "sorry you are getting beaten to death but the community is so small everyone is thrown into the mix" cop out just like quickplay and faction war.. Why is the community so freakin small because the last years PGI listen to nothing that community said or asked for..

They only listen to the youtube parasites and the champion douche bags that play a totally different MWO experience than the rest of the down trodden masses do in the lower tiers..

Edited by Samial, 16 March 2018 - 06:06 AM.

[Darth Hotz]

I guess solaris will turn into a big fight for legs...Lets see how attractive this will become as an esport...

[Asym]

Well, well now.... The end of days is near: can you feel the vibration of fear? Solaris is going to marginally succeed because this is a small niche market and whales buy everything and anything offered... That isn't going to change anytime soon because a lot of those players only play a few hours a month: they like to collect mechs and tinker with them.

The rest of you Arcade FPS pilots will either like Solaris or hate it. I'd bet a 50/50 split depending on the actual quality of the mode. The Team FP loyalists, many of whom have said they aren't going to play Solaris will.... They thrive on farming and seal clubbing and call that skill......I'd bet they'll split 30-70 because without teams to hide behind, well, the arcade FPS crowd will eat them alive and farm them and that won't last very long. If PGI puts FP back, you will find the rest of them there in prime time relishing the "good old days" and they stay.... QP isn't going to change much. New players will try solaris and like it or hate it: another 50/50 cut.

Us "retired" pilots will continue to watch a game we really wanted to succeed amble around like a wounded Buffalo till it eaither dies and becomes something else or heals and "gets GuD" some other way.

Hey, there is an event coming up and that means if there is MC, many of us will drop in, potato up the population and frustrate those who wish we'd just leave !! Now that, should be an event ! The annual potato festival !

Good hunting in Solaris. "Aim Small, Miss Small".........

[DrCyanide]

I see a misconception that I feel need to be cleared up before you can talk about the success of Solaris

Players are casual before they are dedicated.

People need to have some feeling of success/accomplishment/fun in their first hour or two of playing a game in order for them to want to come back. They downloaded a game from Steam on a whim, whether it wins them over from DOTA, CS:GO, or any other game, will depend on their first impressions of this game.

There's a lot to take in as a casual starting out in this game, to actually feel like you know what you're doing. Then it takes a lot more mistakes to actually know what you're doing. After they have an actual feel for what they're doing they stand a chance of becoming a dedicated player, the kind this community covets to boost it's playerbase.

Those people who are dedicated to the Battletech/Mechwarrior franchise came years ago, and they're either still playing this game or they're not. As a few of you have mentioned, there are newer games that are coming which will tempt away that portion of the playerbase with new experiences and ways to get their lore/immersion fix. The age of people coming because they love Battletech/Mechwarrior is behind you. People will now come if they like giant mechs, and they'll stay if they like the combat and customization of those mechs.

Customization was a big part of what initially lured me into trying out MWO (that and playing with a friend), but I fell away because that customization felt too tedious to iterate on with too few c-bills coming in at the time (I really sucked, and thus got extremely few c-bills). I've recently taken a break from my previous go-to game, and that's what's lead to me giving MWO a second shot. I'm glad for it, and I know I'm a far better player than I was the first time around, but I believe I'm the fluke exception for coming back rather than the rule. Most players try your game once, and if they abandon it they do so for good.

The only way MechWarrior Online will gain more players is by giving new players the core MWO experience quickly
(and advertising this game more aggressively, which probably won't happen with MW5 in development)

Locking experiences behind requiring huge amounts of c-bills on hand is going to feel exclusionary, especially after they spend all their early c-bills on customizing a mech only to realize they've made a mess of it (You get those early c-bills to get you into the customizing experience faster). Lets be honest, having permanent damage that you've got to repair each time is an experience. You're changing how the core gameplay feels by requiring vastly different strategies, playstyles, and loadouts. A "free" tier that doesn't have that permanent damage or repair cost would feel entirely different, and wouldn't be the same game mode even if the other aspects were the same.

Quick Play and Faction Play are accessible as soon as you know how to pilot, thanks to the Trial Mechs. You'll suck, but you can do it, and in doing so you'll get a taste of what those modes offer. Such would not be the case with Solaris if there was permanent damage.



I get that there are veteran players that want something more to spend their c-bills on. I just don't think this would be where that should happen.

As for Solaris itself... meh?

The way I see it, this is a team game. A mode which sets that team aspect aside will only have lasting appeal to glory hogs, and I'd imagine the worst of those play other games that show off their individual skill more regularly. It could be a mildly amusing change of pace, and it might bring some former players back for a few rounds, but I wouldn't count on it bringing in new players on it's own. After all, that would require new people to even know the game mode exists, and right now there's more information about a sale related to it than the game mode. When I was trying to even find out what it was I ended up getting most of my information from a website talking about the tabletop game rather than anything on this website.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

I most certainly don't believe that all players are casual before they are dedicated, especially when a game is using a well loved and established IP. They can make these decisions before they even play a game. The IP keeps this game semi alive. Not the game play. Awkward truths.

[Sjorpha]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 16 March 2018 - 07:47 AM, said:

I most certainly don't believe that all players are casual before they are dedicated, especially when a game is using a well loved and established IP. They can make these decisions before they even play a game. The IP keeps this game semi alive. Not the game play. Awkward truths.

Yeah, the casual distinction is more about what kind of gamer you are.

Now the point still stands that you begin a game as a...well, beginner I guess...and whether your mindset is casual or dedicated to gaming there is still a limited window of time to hook you to that particular game.

So the same kind of dedicated gamer might become hooked on for example Elite Dangerous or MWO depending on how well these games present themselves in the first few hours of gameplay. I don't think that is about difficulty or grind primarily, the person in question might have a taste for high difficulty and slow progress like I assume a lot of the MWO target audience has, but the game still needs to show him fast why it will be worth the work and investment to become good at it. That is where I feel MWO is a bit lacking.

As a comparison ED really let's you glimpse what's possible later on very quickly, you see wanted pirate ships you cannot yet challenge drift by as you hide your sidewinder in an asteroid belt and wait for an easier target and you think "I can't wait to get a better fighter so I can go after those Anacondas...". The problem is solved not by making it easy for the new player but rather by teasing him with visions of future accomplishments.

Maybe not the same kind of game but MWO could still be better at showing itself and making you want more.

Edited by Sjorpha, 16 March 2018 - 08:16 AM.

[DrCyanide]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 16 March 2018 - 07:47 AM, said:

I most certainly don't believe that all players are casual before they are dedicated, especially when a game is using a well loved and established IP. They can make these decisions before they even play a game. The IP keeps this game semi alive. Not the game play. Awkward truths.

As you said, those players are dedicated to the IP, not the game. How many of them will happily jump ship when a new game in the IP comes out? What kind of "dedicated" player is that? The IP's fans have kept the game going so far, but that can't last forever.

The game needs new blood to continue living as new installments in the IP spread those fans across more experiences. Getting those new players will require investment on PGI's part, both in terms of advertising and changing the starting experience to try and retain those fans.

What I don't know is if PGI intends to put in the required effort to try and get more players, or if they're content to let MWO cruise along as is and then discard it sometime after MW5 is released. Making the changes to turn the game's trajectory around may require more resources (developer time, advertising, etc) that they'd rather spend on trying to make MW5 more successful. The videos I've seen so far of MW5 have no appeal to me, because I'm here for this game's gameplay, not what it offers to the IP. I'll be here after others move on.

The core gameplay is pretty solid, it's just hard to notice and get the feel of at first. I believe they can turn that around, make the starting experience faster/better, then with a bit of advertising get some new, lasting players in. But without that this game is just going to lose players, barring some event that creates a bunch of new fans for the IP.

[Relishcakes]

I understand that this will never happen because....i think the reason was engine limitation? or game coding limitation? i guess it would take way more work than solaris itself would have? something..whatever, i want a damn FFA mode. I hate 1v1, 2v2,3v3 modes in pvp based games because those literally ALWAYS becomes the focus and everything and everyone else falls to the wayside.

I dont want that...and thats whats going to happen.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

FFA modes are great. Would be great. Beyond their ability unless they figure out how to allow more than 2 teams in a match.

DrCyanide, on 16 March 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

As you said, those players are dedicated to the IP, not the game. How many of them will happily jump ship when a new game in the IP comes out? What kind of "dedicated" player is that? The IP's fans have kept the game going so far, but that can't last forever.

The game needs new blood to continue living as new installments in the IP spread those fans across more experiences. Getting those new players will require investment on PGI's part, both in terms of advertising and changing the starting experience to try and retain those fans.

What I don't know is if PGI intends to put in the required effort to try and get more players, or if they're content to let MWO cruise along as is and then discard it sometime after MW5 is released. Making the changes to turn the game's trajectory around may require more resources (developer time, advertising, etc) that they'd rather spend on trying to make MW5 more successful. The videos I've seen so far of MW5 have no appeal to me, because I'm here for this game's gameplay, not what it offers to the IP. I'll be here after others move on.

The core gameplay is pretty solid, it's just hard to notice and get the feel of at first. I believe they can turn that around, make the starting experience faster/better, then with a bit of advertising get some new, lasting players in. But without that this game is just going to lose players, barring some event that creates a bunch of new fans for the IP.

Truth about this game is that people running their OWN tournaments and OWN leagues outside of PGI kept the game going. Kept people engaged and in the game.

They have all but stopped playing.


If Solaris, like Blood Bowl allowed people to have control over making a league, open or by invite, alongside PGI leagues, that would appeal to more people. Might even bring some of those tournament running people back.

Pretty sure we won't see that.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 16 March 2018 - 09:33 AM.

[Tordin]

Black Ivan, on 16 March 2018 - 03:41 AM, said:

Excatly. Solaris will even more force high Alpha buildts to kill the enemy as fast as possibel and push Mechs out of the game mode

And some smart folks want rockets, flamers and mg's be banned, especially flamers. I find this insane! QP and so on have these high alpha dmg laser combos and such, why arent the meta weapons in these modes banned? Because its not so competive? Well certain weapons arent banned in competive either, maybe lurms but thats another story.
So S7 cant have their niche "meta" weapons consisting of flamers and the other two "tool" weapons?

Is really the alpha e-peen so big that they cant stand a weapon that could stop their laser alpha shenanigans? its just disgusting. There are the gauss alpha build but those would laugh at flamer boating mechs and puncture them with slugs like theres no tomorrow

Fianlly a S7 game mode where brawling finally will be more prominent and otherwise niche/ situational weapons can have their glory. Oh no, CANT HAVE THAT you know!

The certain group of players cant bear the thought of being stun-locked. Well now you know, plan accordingly, yeah suck there might be no cool shot consumables in S7 either, the ONE thing to get you out of a flamer stun lock. Well then, maybe not take along laser overload loadouts next time and not blame it on a puny weapon system thats useful in 1 frigging situation, well maybe two.

Leave rockets, mgs and flamers be!

[Bud Crue]

Tordin, on 16 March 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

And some smart folks want rockets, flamers and mg's be banned, especially flamers. I find this insane...

Too late. Paul already announced that Flamers are banned from Solaris. (Last NGNG masters challenge...see reddit thread for relevant discussion).

Edit:
https://www.reddit.c...ame=OutreachHPG

Edited by Bud Crue, 16 March 2018 - 11:46 AM.

[VitriolicViolet]

the only way id consider spending much time at all in Solaris is if we get 12 or 24 player FFA.
Otherwise the mode has no appeal, its going to be virtually the same gameplay, but will last all of a minute at most and will heavily reinforce the choice of the best mech with the most effecient load out. This mode will frankly punish casuals in ways CW never did. im not sure why some people think it will bring people in, its going to be worse than The Dong ever was.

FFA would be really fun though, like awesomely fun. too bad

[Mystere]

Bud Crue, on 16 March 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

Too late. Paul already announced that Flamers are banned from Solaris. (Last NGNG masters challenge...see reddit thread for relevant discussion).

Edit:
https://www.reddit.c...ame=OutreachHPG

Really?

So, the flamer-equipped Solaris 7 Hero Firestarter cannot be used as is? What idiot thought of that? <smh>

REFUND!!!

Edited by Mystere, 16 March 2018 - 04:03 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

DrCyanide, on 16 March 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

I see a misconception that I feel need to be cleared up before you can talk about the success of Solaris

Players are casual before they are dedicated.

People need to have some feeling of success/accomplishment/fun in their first hour or two of playing a game in order for them to want to come back. They downloaded a game from Steam on a whim, whether it wins them over from DOTA, CS:GO, or any other game, will depend on their first impressions of this game.

There's a lot to take in as a casual starting out in this game, to actually feel like you know what you're doing. Then it takes a lot more mistakes to actually know what you're doing. After they have an actual feel for what they're doing they stand a chance of becoming a dedicated player, the kind this community covets to boost it's playerbase.

Those people who are dedicated to the Battletech/Mechwarrior franchise came years ago, and they're either still playing this game or they're not. As a few of you have mentioned, there are newer games that are coming which will tempt away that portion of the playerbase with new experiences and ways to get their lore/immersion fix. The age of people coming because they love Battletech/Mechwarrior is behind you. People will now come if they like giant mechs, and they'll stay if they like the combat and customization of those mechs.

Customization was a big part of what initially lured me into trying out MWO (that and playing with a friend), but I fell away because that customization felt too tedious to iterate on with too few c-bills coming in at the time (I really sucked, and thus got extremely few c-bills). I've recently taken a break from my previous go-to game, and that's what's lead to me giving MWO a second shot. I'm glad for it, and I know I'm a far better player than I was the first time around, but I believe I'm the fluke exception for coming back rather than the rule. Most players try your game once, and if they abandon it they do so for good.

The only way MechWarrior Online will gain more players is by giving new players the core MWO experience quickly
(and advertising this game more aggressively, which probably won't happen with MW5 in development)

Locking experiences behind requiring huge amounts of c-bills on hand is going to feel exclusionary, especially after they spend all their early c-bills on customizing a mech only to realize they've made a mess of it (You get those early c-bills to get you into the customizing experience faster). Lets be honest, having permanent damage that you've got to repair each time is an experience. You're changing how the core gameplay feels by requiring vastly different strategies, playstyles, and loadouts. A "free" tier that doesn't have that permanent damage or repair cost would feel entirely different, and wouldn't be the same game mode even if the other aspects were the same.

Quick Play and Faction Play are accessible as soon as you know how to pilot, thanks to the Trial Mechs. You'll suck, but you can do it, and in doing so you'll get a taste of what those modes offer. Such would not be the case with Solaris if there was permanent damage.



I get that there are veteran players that want something more to spend their c-bills on. I just don't think this would be where that should happen.

As for Solaris itself... meh?

The way I see it, this is a team game. A mode which sets that team aspect aside will only have lasting appeal to glory hogs, and I'd imagine the worst of those play other games that show off their individual skill more regularly. It could be a mildly amusing change of pace, and it might bring some former players back for a few rounds, but I wouldn't count on it bringing in new players on it's own. After all, that would require new people to even know the game mode exists, and right now there's more information about a sale related to it than the game mode. When I was trying to even find out what it was I ended up getting most of my information from a website talking about the tabletop game rather than anything on this website.

thats the typical thinking today...im will all doing without self investement or working for experience .....thats destroyed so many games for the Fast Click Play party...its against other Games very easy to become new Mechs ...5 games in FW and you have a Million ..in War thunder you must doing many Matches for a new Chassie in the Skill Tree ...here you can buy a assault from the first Day in war thunder a B29 only for real pay or you use the long long way over the Skill tree.

when im will play a Arena Shooter im can play Heavy Gear or Hawken...BATTLEtech is for me not solaris flying Circus

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 16 March 2018 - 05:26 PM.

[Burke IV]

Excuse me while i lol up my sleeve about flamers and solaris packs.

[Rogue Three]

I really don't understand the thought process behind introducing 14 more queues (1v1 and 2v2 with seven mech tiers each) at a time when there are already population problems in the existing queues. After all, a given player can't queue for Solaris and another game mode at the same time.

I'm sure a significant portion of players were hoping for a mode like this, or PGI wouldn't have bothered developing it, but I strongly doubt that it will bring in the hordes of new players needed to fill the queues, especially not without a lot more advertising outside the game.

But let's keep optimistic.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

oldradagast, on 16 March 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

"Opens the game to new builds" = you can't afford to play the builds you want, because you lose money, so you have play crummy builds that don't interest you. Sorry, that's not an improvement. This game is stale enough - forcing inferior builds on people because it's all they can afford is silly. It also further opens the gap between the high and low skilled players. These days, anyone can eventually grind up to any mech build - only their skill differentiates between them once the game begins. But if you create some game mode where only winners can earn enough for powerful builds, you create a snowball where the winners can just buy victory as they trash standard engine, cheap IS junk target mechs in some Clan or heavily customized IS meta mech.

People run into each other blindly and die not because "it still makes money" but because TTK is so miserably short and there's rarely any real flow or strategy in the game that "mash murder balls together" is all you get. One mistake is usually lethal or mission-kill worthy in this game, so it is not surprising if players just go out, guns blazing.

Do you remember when we had R & R and falling down? I do. Those features did more to dictate the flow of battle and play styles more than anything PGI has ever done. The best light pilots in the game came from that era.

"Crummy builds". Anything that doesn't have the best is apparently a crummy build. Again, don't play a hardcore mode if you don't want the extra inventory management. That is a pretty simply solution right there. There are more and more people who enjoy risk based gaming every day. Again, who cares about losing c-bills? Hardcore mode appeals to people with a decent mech stable and credit purse already. They already don't give a rats pucker about actually making c-bills. They have no sense of urgency to buy mechs anymore. So, who really cares about breaking them up?

No. The only people who wouldn't enjoy such a mode are on the lower end of the skill spectrum, are starting players or someone so casual over the years they are scrounging for credits. So, play the starter league and let other people have something special. What's the point of hoarding untold millions of C-bills that have no actual purpose?

Hardcore league achievements, titles, decals. Bring it on.

Hell, the sadist in me also wants to play for pink slips of mechs. haha

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 17 March 2018 - 02:09 PM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

VitriolicViolet, on 16 March 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

the only way id consider spending much time at all in Solaris is if we get 12 or 24 player FFA.
Otherwise the mode has no appeal, its going to be virtually the same gameplay, but will last all of a minute at most and will heavily reinforce the choice of the best mech with the most effecient load out. This mode will frankly punish casuals in ways CW never did. im not sure why some people think it will bring people in, its going to be worse than The Dong ever was.

FFA would be really fun though, like awesomely fun. too bad

The same game play? Put some more thought into it. You need to carry yourself. There is no team to support you. Some mechs will be decked out different.

Same game play. Quite the opposite. When are the BEST fights in large team battles? When the team is dead and it's down to 1v1 or 2v2. When you stumble on a lone opponent while out scouting yourself. NO zerg to prop someone up.

[Thorn Hallis]

Mystere, on 16 March 2018 - 03:07 AM, said:

For a few weeks or so, maybe. But after people come to the brutal realization that they're just being farmed, they're going to run with their tail between their legs.

However, 12/24+ free-for-all fights are a different matter altogether.

I'm not so sure. 1v1 is the simplest of game modes, easy to get in, easy to repeat, probably low wait times and short matches.

Free for all would be a terrible campfest I think.