67 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

the balance issues were never so bad that people couldnt just play through them.

the bigger problem is that the game just isnt fun anymore.

[Wingbreaker]

I have more time in the timberwolf than you've spent in game, in all likelihood. I'd put Solitude and Jager as the probable two pilots with more time in the thing than myself. Soli doesn't really play it anymore, and Jager just doesn't play. But if you were to ask either of them, I'm pretty sure they'll agree with the below reasoning. I'm not the best, but I'm a fairly decent heavy pilot and the timber for a long time has been my specialty.

Why is the Ebon Jag better, in every conceivable fashion, than the Timberwolf in its current state (since engine desynch)?

Simply put, mobility due to mech weight instead of engine and a distinct bias on PGI's part.

The 65 ton EBJ runs a 325XL, taking up 19+3 tons of its podspace (29%, 33.85% with heatsinks).

The 75 ton TBR runs a 375XL, taking up 26.5+5 tons of its podspace (35.3%, 42% with heatsinks).

Quote

Mech: EBJ ///// Timber
Accel: 22.33kph/s ///// 17.72
Decel: 25kph/s ///// 19.66
TurnR: 47.55 ///// 42.39
TTRate: 85.5 ///// 76.5
PitchST: 53Deg/s ///// 48
PitchSA: 214deg/s ///// 191
Total Pitch 25deg+30 ///// 20+30
YawSpdT: 86deg/s ///// 77
YawSpdA: 214deg/s ///// 191
Yaw angle: 90d ///// 90

Therefore for an overall decrease of 8% of total usable weight of the mech with a corresponding 13% increase in total weight the Timber suffers:

-4.61 kph/s Acceleration (20.64% decrease)
-15.0475 kph/s Deceleration (21.36% decrease)
-5.34 Deg/s Turnrate (10.85% decrease)
-9 Deg/s Torso Twist rate (10.53% decrease)
-5 Deg/s torso pitch traversal rate (9.43% decrease)
-23 Deg/s arm pitch traversal rate (10.75% decrease)
-5 degrees of total torso pitch (20% decrease)
-9 deg/s of torso yaw traversal rate (10.47% decrease)
-23 deg/s of arm yaw traversal rate (10.75% decrease)
And it has the same base yaw angle.

All of this is prior to any particular customization of the mech in terms of omnipods, which is where the Timber gets hit further.

To equal the hardpoint capabilities of the Ebon Jaguar without use of hero omnipods(9 energy), the Timberwolf must take the A left torso and the S right torso.

For this equal point of damage capabilities, the timberwolf is reduced a further:
-20% Torso yaw speed
-5% acceleration rate
-5% deceleration rate
-10% reverse speed
-10 torso yaw angle
and is reduced in total weight capacity by 2 tons due to locked JJs in the S right torso.

Putting the timberwolf before skill tree additions at:

Quote

Mech: EBJ ///// Timber
Accel: 22.33kph/s ///// 16.83
Decel: 25kph/s ///// 18.68
TurnR: 47.55 ///// 42.39
TTRate: 85.5 ///// 61.2
PitchST: 53Deg/s ///// 48
PitchSA: 214deg/s ///// 191
Total Pitch 25deg+30 ///// 20+30
YawSpdT: 86deg/s ///// 61
YawSpdA: 214deg/s ///// 191
Yaw angle: 90d ///// 80

Do you see why this is a problem, now? A 10 ton lighter mech with almost identical mechanical capabilities (exception of no jjs), with a similar body profile, is almost 25% more maneuverable in key areas that directly affect survivability.

I fail to see how you could argue the Timberwolf is better than the Ebon Jaguar. The Engine Desynch nerfs atop of the specific negative quirks on this one chassis are an example of the distinct bias against it: A mech that was the top of its class once and had since been usurped when the balance decisions against it came in. Even within the 75 ton bracket (the terminology used by PGI staff) it is on the losing end of setups. The IS marauder can run and jump circles around the Timberwolf with a similar archtype (Noting, in fairness, the dissimilarity of IS vs Clan).

This isn't even touching on the Timberwolf's erroneous hero pods that now circumvent the problems introduced by the S right torso in some builds or the fact that the Ebon Jaguar can run certain specific builds that the Timberwolf cannot due to critical slot limitations.

[Mystere]

Bud Crue, on 18 March 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

All of you mocking Abisha for what seems an obvious mis-understanding of the mech hierarchy, at least as it involves the Timber and Ebon, should be ashamed.

I suggest you all pay penance and go back and listen to the Rjbass interview with Chris Lowery.

Not only did Chris assert that the Timber is a superior performer to the Ebon according to PGI's stats, but it is a superior performer over the Hellbringer (and all IS 75 tonners; and at all levels of play including competitive play...really go back and listen, I am not making this up) as well.

Therefore it ought to be clear now that Abisha speaks with the same voice as the balance underling and his statistics. Now clearly, with PGI's absolute and perfect understanding of the game this is irrefutable proof that Abisha is an expert of statistical analysis at least on par with the lord of balance himself, regardless of his time in game or his own stats.

Alas, we may not like it, and we may not have the remotest empirical experience in common with the assertion that the Timber is some OP monster, but PGI and apparently Abisha know the truth of the matter: The Timber is OP and is deserving of a good nerf any day now (I'm actually shocked that this hasn't happened yet based on Chris' comments if it truly is OP over ALL IS 75 tonners and the most meta of clan heavies,than why haven't those poor sad mech been buffed or the apparently OP timber nerfed?).

Now all of you apologize for your ignorance and general e-peening meanness. For shame.
(either that or keep encouraging bads to take the Timber, so Chris leaves the Ebon and Hell bringer alone)

Oh, shut it!

I want the Timber restored to it's rightful glory. <shrugs>

Edited by Mystere, 18 March 2018 - 02:58 PM.

[K O Z A K]

Wingbreaker, on 18 March 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

I have more time in the timberwolf than you've spent in game, in all likelihood. I'd put Solitude and Jager as the probable two pilots with more time in the thing than myself. Soli doesn't really play it anymore, and Jager just doesn't play. But if you were to ask either of them, I'm pretty sure they'll agree with the below reasoning. I'm not the best, but I'm a fairly decent heavy pilot and the timber for a long time has been my specialty.

Why is the Ebon Jag better, in every conceivable fashion, than the Timberwolf in its current state (since engine desynch)?

Simply put, mobility due to mech weight instead of engine and a distinct bias on PGI's part.

The 65 ton EBJ runs a 325XL, taking up 19+3 tons of its podspace (29%, 33.85% with heatsinks).

The 75 ton TBR runs a 375XL, taking up 26.5+5 tons of its podspace (35.3%, 42% with heatsinks).




Therefore for an overall decrease of 8% of total usable weight of the mech with a corresponding 13% increase in total weight the Timber suffers:

-4.61 kph/s Acceleration (20.64% decrease)
-15.0475 kph/s Deceleration (21.36% decrease)
-5.34 Deg/s Turnrate (10.85% decrease)
-9 Deg/s Torso Twist rate (10.53% decrease)
-5 Deg/s torso pitch traversal rate (9.43% decrease)
-23 Deg/s arm pitch traversal rate (10.75% decrease)
-5 degrees of total torso pitch (20% decrease)
-9 deg/s of torso yaw traversal rate (10.47% decrease)
-23 deg/s of arm yaw traversal rate (10.75% decrease)
And it has the same base yaw angle.

All of this is prior to any particular customization of the mech in terms of omnipods, which is where the Timber gets hit further.

To equal the hardpoint capabilities of the Ebon Jaguar without use of hero omnipods(9 energy), the Timberwolf must take the A left torso and the S right torso.

For this equal point of damage capabilities, the timberwolf is reduced a further:
-20% Torso yaw speed
-5% acceleration rate
-5% deceleration rate
-10% reverse speed
-10 torso yaw angle
and is reduced in total weight capacity by 2 tons due to locked JJs in the S right torso.

Putting the timberwolf before skill tree additions at:



Do you see why this is a problem, now? A 10 ton lighter mech with almost identical mechanical capabilities (exception of no jjs), with a similar body profile, is almost 25% more maneuverable in key areas that directly affect survivability.

I fail to see how you could argue the Timberwolf is better than the Ebon Jaguar. The Engine Desynch nerfs atop of the specific negative quirks on this one chassis are an example of the distinct bias against it: A mech that was the top of its class once and had since been usurped when the balance decisions against it came in. Even within the 75 ton bracket (the terminology used by PGI staff) it is on the losing end of setups. The IS marauder can run and jump circles around the Timberwolf with a similar archtype (Noting, in fairness, the dissimilarity of IS vs Clan).

This isn't even touching on the Timberwolf's erroneous hero pods that now circumvent the problems introduced by the S right torso in some builds or the fact that the Ebon Jaguar can run certain specific builds that the Timberwolf cannot due to critical slot limitations.

math OP

and on top of that the ebj has better weapon layout/higher mounts

I have just shy of 2k games in timber and ebj each, and they are my most played mechs historically, since engine desync I never use the timber anymore. It's main strength used to be the fact that although it was a jack of all trades master of none, but having the mobility of a medium allowed it to bring quite a bit of firepower quickly from weird angles, and just as quickly bail out, it's current mobility has largely killed that. The linking of gauss/ppc ghost heat was a final nail in the coffin

[Wingbreaker]

For the record, if you want to **** on my stats, OP, go ahead and check my jarl's list. You'll see the distinct point where the Timberwolf got dragged behind the shed to be given the Old Yeller treatment.

It's even got pretty graphics now to show the ENORMOUS DROP.

Oh, and they're still better than yours, OP.

[Krivvan]

TLBFestus, on 18 March 2018 - 01:52 PM, said:

All of this balance between mechs wouldn't matter so much if PGI had actually included anything resembling ROLE warfare and appropriate rewards into place.

Roles are very alive and well, it's just that people don't really recognize what those roles are. Spotting and scouting alone isn't a role that makes sense for example.

Real roles include Brawler, Overwatch, and Anti-Light, for example.

razenWing, on 18 March 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

That's the bible of light mech combat. If there's a top 3 light pilot in the world, Krivvan is one of them.

I'd call myself maybe top 15 or top 10 instead.

Edited by Krivvan, 18 March 2018 - 07:40 PM.

[PocketYoda]

They are all garbage clan mechs.

[sycocys]

Abisha, on 18 March 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

the quirky system can have worked if they keep it to the basics, like speed, agility, tonnage, armor etc, i think it failed when they

It failed because they didn't fix the underlying problems that caused huge imbalances in the first place.

Just looking at two mechanics in particular - Heat Penalty Scale and Energy Draw - solve a wide array of the imbalance problems.

If they roughly followed the TT's outline of the heat penalty system, the alpha vomit + hardpoint inflation problems are drastically limited to how out of control they could be.

And the energy draw system furthers that by adding an actual useful mechanic to balance out Guass, fast cycle weapons, and loaded tech (ecm/masc/JJ/stealth armor and computers).

-- Then if you take that a step further and add a loadout cost to the mech nodes (be honest they aren't skills, just magical mech upgrades) - you eliminate the balance disparity that for some reason they think is okay to have between two of the exact same mech.
This is where a huge part of the game's imbalance has come from for years but never got addressed because people were so hung up on having to buy 3 mechs before the change and how lazily designed it is in the second iteration.

Add a load out cost and you actually start to see a baseline balance for the game.

Edited by sycocys, 19 March 2018 - 02:00 AM.