58 replies to this topic

[LT. HARDCASE]

Grus, on 21 March 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

IS doesn't "Have to" run a XL if they dont want to. Claners HAVE to run what the omni mech has... no option.

Now i will say the best mechs to run a ISXL is the lights and some meds. other than that, LFE. As with the drawbacks of using a XL well you have to take the good with the bad. understand that if you lose a ST you're toast... so dont stop moving and keep that twist alive.

It's easy to say you don't "have to", but most mechs below Assault class "have to" if they want to compete with their Clan counterparts.

[Grus]

LT. HARDCASE, on 21 March 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

It's easy to say you don't "have to", but most mechs below Assault class "have to" if they want to compete with their Clan counterparts.

A hard lesson i had to learn was to stop tring to do what a IS mech can do with a Clan mech. that's not how it works, you need to play to the strong points of the mech and the class. otherwise you're doing a disservice to the build. you have to weigh that in when you decide what you're wanting to do with said mech and not just throw it on just because. brawler Cent? might not want to bring a XL.. Brawler Bushwacker? maybe..

[Vxheous]

Step 1: Wolfhound 2
Step 2: Not be a sh*tter at this game
Step 3: Profit.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Grus, on 21 March 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

IS doesn't "Have to" run a XL if they dont want to. Claners HAVE to run what the omni mech has... no option.

Okay so you don't know what you're talking about, thanks for clarifying.

Grus, on 21 March 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

Now i will say the best mechs to run a ISXL is the lights and some meds. other than that, LFE. As with the drawbacks of using a XL well you have to take the good with the bad. understand that if you lose a ST you're toast... so dont stop moving and keep that twist alive.

IS lights, almost all mediums, and a good chunk of heavies need to run XL. Not running XL means you're also drastically undergunned compared to clan equivalents, as opposed to just being moderately undergunned thanks to clan ES, FF, and two-slot DHS.

That's why any argument that IS lights have it easy is BS. IS lights require constant erratic movement and excellent situational awareness to not die quickly. If you don't run XL, you're more likely to die fast. Speed is life, to the point that dying on ST loss is still less dangerous than being slower.

Now, if you want to explain how to run LFE on IS lights without losing most of your damage or a good chunk of speed, be my guest. Here are some examples to work with.

LCT-1E XL
LCT-1E LFE -- 33% less firepower.

SDR-5K XL (already a fun build with low raw damage).
SDR-5K LFE -- LOL

COM-2D XL (already too tight on tonnage)
COM-2D LFE -- uh

RVN-3L XL; here's a classic, and you already have to strip 30pt of armor to fit it.
RVN-3L LFE -- what a tremendous upgrade...

Get the point? If you drop IS lights to LFE, either they have to go way down the engine grade and are slow enough to get splattered easily, or you drop anywhere from a third to half of your firepower to maintain the same speed. XL is the only viable option for IS lights and suggesting otherwise is astonishingly detached from reality.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 21 March 2018 - 06:15 PM.

[Vxheous]

Alexander of Macedon, on 21 March 2018 - 06:14 PM, said:

Okay so you don't know what you're talking about, thanks for clarifying.


IS lights, almost all mediums, and a good chunk of heavies need to run XL. Not running XL means you're also drastically undergunned compared to clan equivalents, as opposed to just being moderately undergunned thanks to clan ES, FF, and two-slot DHS.

That's why any argument that IS lights have it easy is BS. IS lights require constant erratic movement and excellent situational awareness to not die quickly. If you don't run XL, you're more likely to die fast. Speed is life, to the point that dying on ST loss is still less dangerous than being slower.

Now, if you want to explain how to run LFE on IS lights without losing most of your damage or a good chunk of speed, be my guest. Here are some examples to work with.

LCT-1E XL
LCT-1E LFE -- 33% less firepower.

SDR-5K XL (already a fun build with low raw damage).
SDR-5K LFE -- LOL

COM-2D XL (already too tight on tonnage)
COM-2D LFE -- uh

RVN-3L XL; here's a classic, and you already have to strip 30pt of armor to fit it.
RVN-3L LFE -- what a tremendous upgrade...

Get the point? If you drop IS lights to LFE, either they have to go way down the engine grade and are slow enough to get splattered easily, or you drop anywhere from a third to half of your firepower to maintain the same speed. XL is the only viable option for IS lights and suggesting otherwise is astonishingly detached from reality.

You can run 6 med lasers and a LFE on IS lights if you're worried about getting XL'ed to death. 30 alpha, 130kph prior to speedtweak: WLF-2

[Devilsfury]

Ever since this game came out there have been broken, "easy mode" lights. It has been on both sides. It seems like the same 10 or so guys over the last few years always come to make posts saying that everyone else is stupid. Lights are scouts and their job is just that. IS or Clan, there is no way that a light should be putting up assault damage numbers and the game creators just dont get that through their heads. Its sad and stupid. But to stick to the subject, yes, there are several op easy mode lights.

[FupDup]

Devilsfury, on 21 March 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

Ever since this game came out there have been broken, "easy mode" lights. It has been on both sides. It seems like the same 10 or so guys over the last few years always come to make posts saying that everyone else is stupid. Lights are scouts and their job is just that. IS or Clan, there is no way that a light should be putting up assault damage numbers and the game creators just dont get that through their heads. Its sad and stupid. But to stick to the subject, yes, there are several op easy mode lights.

Enforcing specific damage numbers is hard because of the fact that people can fire a potentially infinite number of shots per match, the only limits being heat and ammo.

For example, if I have a Warhawk that shoots quad ERPPCs ten times, and an Adder that shoots dual ERPPCs twenty times, that should equal the same damage yes? Total of forty hits, the difference is just how much time it takes. How the heck would you stop an example like that?

Would you impose some kind of "Ghost Damage" limit where your guns stop doing damage after you reach a certain point? This "Mech Class X should only ever do X damage" is impossible to actually enforce in real gameplay without doing something stupid like that.

Edited by FupDup, 21 March 2018 - 07:38 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Besides, a lot of the damage on Lights is coming from strikes anyway.

[ThreeStooges]

Devilsfury, on 21 March 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

Ever since this game came out there have been broken, "easy mode" lights. It has been on both sides. It seems like the But to stick to the subject, yes, there are several op easy mode lights.

And exactly which ones are those? How many are clan? This thread isn't about the raven I only used it as an example as it is one of the most common IS lights. The cost of all those upgrades in not just c-bills but in having to intentionally remove equipment, and use other equipment was one point of the thread. Clans have all those nice clan features such as the often touted cxl which has no side torso instant death.

IS lights must often be forced to use XL just to be sub par and semi competitive to clan lights and other clan mechs such as the viper or shadow cat. Many assaults love to claim Is lights or any light that kills them is OP. IS lights also have low or lower armor. As for the URbie it is an outlier and can't not represent the entire IS light weight class.

[Y E O N N E]

IS lights usually have more hitpoints than their same-weight Clan counterparts, even discounting outliers like the UrbanMech and Wolfhound. The only Clan Light builds worth a damn at the moment are the three MG boats, otherwise the Javelin 10P is the best SRM bomber and basically anything that can bring 6x Medium Lasers and run at 130+ is better than any Clan energy Lights.

[Lethe Wyvern]

For me Osiris 4D is easiest light mech to play QP atm. It have all you need: speed and agility, jj, good hardpoints, good hitboxes. Just wonder why so few players ride it.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Devilsfury, on 21 March 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

Ever since this game came out there have been broken, "easy mode" lights. It has been on both sides. It seems like the same 10 or so guys over the last few years always come to make posts saying that everyone else is stupid. Lights are scouts and their job is just that. IS or Clan, there is no way that a light should be putting up assault damage numbers and the game creators just dont get that through their heads. Its sad and stupid. But to stick to the subject, yes, there are several op easy mode lights.

Its sad when there are people who actually think what this guy does.

You're wrong from a lore standpoint and an ingame standpoint. Things like the Adder, totally a scout right? The Panther going 64 kph stock? Totally a scout!. I should check through lights at some point and see how many of them are actually designated as scouts compared to non scouts.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 21 March 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

Its sad when there are people who actually think what this guy does.

You're wrong from a lore standpoint and an ingame standpoint. Things like the Adder, totally a scout right? The Panther going 64 kph stock? Totally a scout!. I should check through lights at some point and see how many of them are actually designated as scouts compared to non scouts.

UM-R60L: because nothing says "scouting" like a 32.4kph AC20 with legs.

[Grus]

Alexander of Macedon, on 21 March 2018 - 06:14 PM, said:

Okay so you don't know what you're talking about, thanks for clarifying.

Right.... Because we can change the eng in a omni mech now? good to know.

Alexander of Macedon, on 21 March 2018 - 06:14 PM, said:

IS lights, almost all mediums, and a good chunk of heavies need to run XL. Not running XL means you're also drastically undergunned compared to clan equivalents, as opposed to just being moderately undergunned thanks to clan ES, FF, and two-slot DHS.

That's why any argument that IS lights have it easy is BS. IS lights require constant erratic movement and excellent situational awareness to not die quickly. If you don't run XL, you're more likely to die fast. Speed is life, to the point that dying on ST loss is still less dangerous than being slower.

Now, if you want to explain how to run LFE on IS lights without losing most of your damage or a good chunk of speed, be my guest. Here are some examples to work with.

LCT-1E XL
LCT-1E LFE -- 33% less firepower.

SDR-5K XL (already a fun build with low raw damage).
SDR-5K LFE -- LOL

COM-2D XL (already too tight on tonnage)
COM-2D LFE -- uh

RVN-3L XL; here's a classic, and you already have to strip 30pt of armor to fit it.
RVN-3L LFE -- what a tremendous upgrade...

Get the point? If you drop IS lights to LFE, either they have to go way down the engine grade and are slow enough to get splattered easily, or you drop anywhere from a third to half of your firepower to maintain the same speed. XL is the only viable option for IS lights and suggesting otherwise is astonishingly detached from reality.

Ok im not disagreeing with you about IS lights i run a XL in every one of mine. After that though it really comes down to what im going to be doing with the mech and its geometry. if its got hard to hit ST's and i might brawl with it then sure. If im going to brawl or find myself sub 200m all the time, I might go with a LFE. But thats not the subject. Even with the XL my Deathknell will and does survive WAY more damage than it should. Let alone comparison to my clan mechs.

THE DEATH'S KNELL 182 102 79 1.29 207 72 2.88 62,814 207,821
1 day 00:28:11
MIST LYNX MLX-PRIME 156 77 76 1.01 123 81 1.52 33,182 158,831 1 day 11:15:28

for comparison

[Y E O N N E]

Bruh, you need to step up your MLX game!

[Alexander of Macedon]

Grus, on 22 March 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

Right.... Because we can change the eng in a omni mech now? good to know.

That was pretty clearly directed at the assertion that you can run IS lights with LFE without badly hurting their speed or damage.

Comparisons of you playing two 'mechs don't prove anything. Everyone has 'mechs that fit them like a glove and 'mechs that they couldn't play well if their life depended on it. I do monstrously well with my RVN-4X on a regular basis and suck with my Wolfhounds. Does that mean that the Raven 4X is objectively superior to them? Hell no, it means that I play it better.

[InspectorG]

Devilsfury, on 21 March 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

Ever since this game came out there have been broken, "easy mode" lights. It has been on both sides. It seems like the same 10 or so guys over the last few years always come to make posts saying that everyone else is stupid. Lights are scouts and their job is just that. IS or Clan, there is no way that a light should be putting up assault damage numbers and the game creators just dont get that through their heads. Its sad and stupid. But to stick to the subject, yes, there are several op easy mode lights.

Thats why the % of Lights in que is so high...


Pro Tip:
Medium skill required. Ability to hold aim for 1.5 sec required.
6ERML AC + ECM

Hide till mid to late match, circle out near edge border of map.
Wait till the reds are all murder frenzy and leaving their assaults behind/wandering around looking for you.
Pick off the crippled. How? Alpha, run till cool. Repeat.
Hide from those with fresh armor.
YMMV depending on how well you can solo an enemy light/how well you can keep them at 450m+

Bonus tip: potatoes dont look up.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

JackalBeast, on 21 March 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

My favorite thing to do is stare at awe as a commando stomachs multiple dual gauss rounds

My favourite thing to do is play lights and dance around assault players who can't aim because they spend most of their time complaining about lights on this forum instead of learning to aim.

[IllCaesar]

Grus, on 22 March 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

Right.... Because we can change the eng in a omni mech now? good to know.



Ok im not disagreeing with you about IS lights i run a XL in every one of mine. After that though it really comes down to what im going to be doing with the mech and its geometry. if its got hard to hit ST's and i might brawl with it then sure. If im going to brawl or find myself sub 200m all the time, I might go with a LFE. But thats not the subject. Even with the XL my Deathknell will and does survive WAY more damage than it should. Let alone comparison to my clan mechs.

THE DEATH'S KNELL 182 102 79 1.29 207 72 2.88 62,814 207,821
1 day 00:28:11
MIST LYNX MLX-PRIME 156 77 76 1.01 123 81 1.52 33,182 158,831 1 day 11:15:28

for comparison

The TDK has four hardpoints. The Mist Lynx can have twelve, it has lighter missle and ballistic weapons, it has heavy and micro lasers, it has smaller heatsinks, and the Mist Lynx has a safer engine. Seems perfectly fair to me that the TDK is relatively durable considering that Clan lights can easily bring two to five times the firepower of their IS weight counterpart. The Mist Lynx can bring four HMLs and two ERMLs and have 54 damage to the Commando's 20 damage, which is for my money the best Commando overall. That's with six jump jets installed on the Mist Lynx too. I can't even put JJs on my TDK. IS lights generally don't stand a chance against clan lights because of that huge firepower disparity. I think its a bit fair that IS mechs, especially the oldest ones who have had to withstand against the slow creep of hardpoint inflation, are a little bit more durable.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Grus, on 22 March 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

Even with the XL my Deathknell

Ok, I can see running XL in a lot of IS mechs, but TDK is not one of them. Here's 4 tons of weapons with the biggest possible LFE engine.

Need more utility? Drop it down to a 225 and you give up 10 kph for 1.5 tons.

Edited by DerHuhnTeufel, 22 March 2018 - 10:02 PM.