58 replies to this topic

[PocketYoda]

IS lights as a whole are not easy mode.. some are great fun (Urbanmechs) now Clan lights are whole different kettle of fish though

[Grus]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 22 March 2018 - 10:01 PM, said:

Ok, I can see running XL in a lot of IS mechs, but TDK is not one of them. Here's 4 tons of weapons with the biggest possible LFE engine.

Need more utility? Drop it down to a 225 and you give up 10 kph for 1.5 tons.

yeah not liking that build. I'm much more happy with my 4mpl or 1ll 3ml build with max XL eng.

Edited by Grus, 22 March 2018 - 11:32 PM.

[Grus]

Alexander of Macedon, on 22 March 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

That was pretty clearly directed at the assertion that you can run IS lights with LFE without badly hurting their speed or damage.

Clearly....

Dosnt matter if you think it "damages" anything. The fact remains IS has the OPTION to change eng size and type to fit what they want to do with their light mech's. Clan lights excluding the IIC's don't have that option.

[Curccu]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 March 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

bcuz they ugly!

Bah they are pretty.. compared to original BT model.

[Grus]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 March 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

Bruh, you need to step up your MLX game!

hate that mech so much... falls apart like a wet paper bag.

[Sniper09121986]

Grus, on 22 March 2018 - 11:35 PM, said:

hate that mech so much... falls apart like a wet paper bag.

Yep, totally

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Grus, on 22 March 2018 - 11:27 PM, said:

yeah not liking that build. I'm much more happy with my 4mpl or 1ll 3ml build with max XL eng.

Eh, that's a lot of firepower but you'd be running so hot your sustained dps would be way, way down. I'd rather be faster without the side torso vulnerability and not have to worry about overheats.

[cougurt]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 23 March 2018 - 01:59 AM, said:

Eh, that's a lot of firepower but you'd be running so hot your sustained dps would be way, way down. I'd rather be faster without the side torso vulnerability and not have to worry about overheats.

i find that you typically lose your arms in a commando before anything else, so i think an LFE is a bit of a waste. it's pretty damn tanky for a 25 tonner even with the XL.

[Y E O N N E]

Grus, on 22 March 2018 - 11:35 PM, said:

hate that mech so much... falls apart like a wet paper bag.

Nonsense! Are you torso twisting with it? Because...don't. Face-staring is the answer!

[Krivvan]

Funky Bacon, on 21 March 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

Well my Jenners are in a positive K/D ratio I guess...

The Jenner is one of the better IS Lights now to be honest.

Devilsfury, on 21 March 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

Lights are scouts and their job is just that.

Who says? That doesn't sound like very good game design.

[Lykaon]

Vxheous, on 21 March 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

You can run 6 med lasers and a LFE on IS lights if you're worried about getting XL'ed to death. 30 alpha, 130kph prior to speedtweak: WLF-2

Arctic cheetah does this at 5 tons lighter w/ ECM and 6 clan ER-mediums. same speed jumpjets and higher firepower,much longer reach at a cost of heat efficiency with only 5 points lower armor value.

It's a tough sell I think I would take the Cheetah due to the ECM and jump jets (vastly improves survival) and the longer reach (more diversity of targets in reach)

Edited by Lykaon, 23 March 2018 - 01:28 PM.

[Krivvan]

Lykaon, on 23 March 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

Arctic cheetah does this at 5 tons lighter w/ ECM and 6 clan ER-mediums. same speed jumpjets and higher firepower,much longer reach at a cost of heat efficiency with only 5 points lower armor value.

The Cheetah does that with significantly less HP. 6 cERML is also extremely hot in comparison to 6 ML.

If you try to do a fight between a Wolfhound and a laser Cheetah, you'll find that the Wolfhound wins it every time due to simply having more HP and sustained DPS.

Cheetah: https://mwo.smurfy-n...c86ae1e72bd0fd7

• Maximal possible dps: 7.30 dmg/s
  
• Sustained dps (without overheating): 2.48 dmg/s
  
• Total HP Pool: ~380

Wolfhound: https://mwo.smurfy-n...77b1f57a7c2c2f1

• Maximal possible dps: 6.82 dmg/s
  
• Sustained dps (without overheating): 3.48 dmg/s
  
• Total HP Pool: ~475

For comparison the Urbanmech has a Total HP Pool of ~537, the Assassin has ~504, the Mist Lynx has ~445, and the Piranha has ~285.



Keep in mind that Smurfy isn't including the 5% energy heat and 8 to 11 armor quirks per component (which translates to 10 to 14 additional armor per component after the skill tree) that the Wolfhound gets. It's not 5 extra armor that the Wolfhound gets per component compared to the Cheetah, it's up to 19 more. The Wolfhound just utterly out-classes the cERML Cheetah. Also keep in mind that the Cheetah build there isn't even using an ECM, and taking it would cut down its sustained DPS even more.

Also keep in mind that the Wolfhound is doing more sustained DPS while having shorter laser durations too. The only true advantages that Cheetah has are the ~450m optimal range versus the ~310m optimal range of the ML, its JJs, and its two high mounts.

The MG Cheetah is a different story though.

EDIT: Fixed Wolfhound

Edited by Krivvan, 23 March 2018 - 03:23 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Lykaon, on 23 March 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

Arctic cheetah does this at 5 tons lighter w/ ECM and 6 clan ER-mediums. same speed jumpjets and higher firepower,much longer reach at a cost of heat efficiency with only 5 points lower armor value.

It's a tough sell I think I would take the Cheetah due to the ECM and jump jets (vastly improves survival) and the longer reach (more diversity of targets in reach)

Wolfhound still has an advantage in 72% burn times on the lasers and having a little under 68% of the heat per shot as the Cheetah while still retaining over 71% of the damage per shot. Ontop of this you also have super armor because of armor quirks being massively scaled up on light mechs when you get the armor nodes from the skill tree for them and from being a bit heavier than the Cheetah. The builds are 51% cooling efficiency vs 32% in the Wolfhound's favor.

Wolfhound basically wins hands down in any 1v1 scenario, and is exceptional at killing off any lights it needs to to then move onto killing big mechs in flanking attacks while the Cheetah has lost its bite against lights with the nerf of CSPLs and the move over to ERML which now have even longer durations, even longer cooldowns, and even more heat per shot.

[Krivvan]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 23 March 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

Wolfhound basically wins hands down in any 1v1 scenario, and is exceptional at killing off any lights it needs to to then move onto killing big mechs in flanking attacks while the Cheetah has lost its bite against lights with the nerf of CSPLs and the move over to ERML which now have even longer durations, even longer cooldowns, and even more heat per shot.

The Laser Cheetah has lost its bite, but the 6xMG + 3xcERML (or 2xHML) Cheetah still can fight other Lights decently well. Not as well as a Mist Lynx can though.

[Y E O N N E]

3x ERML or 2x HML? 3x HML, all the damage or bust!

[Lykaon]

Krivvan, on 23 March 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

The Cheetah does that with significantly less HP. 6 cERML is also extremely hot in comparison to 6 ML.

If you try to do a fight between a Wolfhound and a laser Cheetah, you'll find that the Wolfhound wins it every time due to simply having more HP and sustained DPS.

So do you stick around and fight to the wolfhound's strengths or do you utilize the Cheetah's strengths?

The cheetah doesn't need to even get into the wolfhounds optimal range because the clan ER- mediums have a 400m optimal the I.S. medium is 270m.

The ECM on the Cheetah can be heavily leveraged to get the first strike and to escape before effective pursuit can be mustered. You don't play a sustained DPS game because the Wolfhound does it better. You fight to cripple the wolfhound at ranges idealy outside 270m. Take that Wolfhound's arm and it's down 2 lasers,take a leg and that wolfhound can be picked apart at range. Or...just keep the Wolfhound locked up for LRMs if that is an option and don't fight the wolfhound at all and instead find something that is an even more unfair fight in your favor.

Utilizing terrain allows you to leverage the vertical mobility of the cheetah's jets. How well does a Wolfhound track targets with only using torso pitch? Remember the Cheetah has two thirds of it's lasers in arms so that is another advantage to be leveraged.

Battles are not won with spreadsheets they are won with properly applied tactics.

[Devilsfury]

Ive been tier 1 for...forever but Im more of a casual with decent stats. Do 20 matches and then compare the numbers you see for the piranha, mist lynx, and the urbie. Usually they are almost always in the top 3 for damage with artic cheetahs not far behind. I understand some people have a magic button and kill these lights like nothing. Ive personally had 2 of my clan mates watch me after they died and hit a Cheetah point blank in the CT with a 69 alpha while it was stuck in a corner. Guess what? It ran off with light damage. Other times, ive shredded them but the hit reg is def way worse on lights than other mechs. (especially moving) Then again ive one shot a few with dual heavy gauss. One suggestion would be to put massive ghost heat penalties to machine guns. Its crazy a mech can carry 8-12 and literally shoot your ammo dry with little to no heat. The other is to relook at hit boxes for those mechs. Some seem to not take much damage at all. But then again, most people know and understand this already. As far as the light que being lower than the rest, its because some pilots want to run them like assaults and think they can just stand and shoot forever. The good pilots with the ez mode mechs (mentioned before) are putting up huge numbers to that of their assault buddies. You know it, I know it but the guys who love their op mechs never want to admit it and all the facts, pic, vids, etcs will never change their mind.

[Xiphias]

Lykaon, on 23 March 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

Battles are not won with spreadsheets they are won with properly applied tactics.

You're really going to lecture Krivvan about light tactics? Seriously?

It's not about getting in optimal Wolfhound range or not. You can't outrun the Wolfhound. It will close the distance.

You overestimate the importance of ECM and you neglect the significant skill tree investment required to make ECM useful, points you aren't spending on fighting better. ECM is in general a pugging tool these days. It's not hard for good pilots to see you when you're using it.

'Just' take the Wolfhounds arm (wasting DPS on an easily shielded arm). Taking a leg is easier said than done with terrain and piloting and the idea of locking a target for LRMs has no bearing on which light is better. It's like saying a Narc Raven is the best light because it can call in 100's of LRMs.

The idea that you're going to be jumping around against a light mech with MLs and avoiding significant damage due to terrain is unlikely. JJs generate a decent amount of heat and there really aren't that many maps that actually have spots you could even try this.

Krivvan has far more applicable experience in light mechs than you do. He's giving you spreadsheets to back up experiences on the battlefield. Not conjuring hypothetical scenarios where one mech has the advantage.

Krivvan, on 23 March 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

Wolfhound: https://mwo.smurfy-n...c511fd72074a47c

• Maximal possible dps: 6.82 dmg/s
  
• Sustained dps (without overheating): 2.86 dmg/s
  
• Total HP Pool: ~475

Small note, you're missing ferro so you can actually take another heatsink for 3.07 sustained DPS.

[Krivvan]

Lykaon, on 23 March 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

Battles are not won with spreadsheets they are won with properly applied tactics.

Trust me, I've played every single Light vs. Light matchup dozens to hundreds of times. I've had experience with it far beyond spreadsheets. The Cheetah is not appreciably fast enough to actually kite a Wolfhound, nor does it have the torso twist to do it. ECM to leverage a first strike isn't a thing that exists when dealing with good players. Under your logic, the ERLL Jenner beats every other Light in the game.

But the point wasn't to argue that the Cheetah was an inherently worse mech than the Wolfhound. It was that it's hardly an obviously better choice, and especially in a 1v1 head-on situation (such as on a Solaris map) the Cheetah ends up losing with little to no chance.

Although again, the MG Cheetah has a far better chance. There's a reason the MG Cheetah is popular whereas the laser Cheetah is all but extinct.

Xiphias, on 23 March 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

Small note, you're missing ferro so you can actually take another heatsink for 3.07 sustained DPS.

Crap. Never mind I'm an idiot, I forgot endo too.

I did it a bit rushed, fixed it now, thanks.

Devilsfury, on 23 March 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

The good pilots with the ez mode mechs (mentioned before) are putting up huge numbers to that of their assault buddies. You know it, I know it but the guys who love their op mechs never want to admit it and all the facts, pic, vids, etcs will never change their mind.

To be honest, my recent stats with the Urbanmech and Jenner are better than my Piranha stats. Although that may just be because I prefer the Piranha in group queue rather than solo.

Edited by Krivvan, 23 March 2018 - 03:26 PM.