179 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

Machine guns...which are along the lines of the PPCs and Laser weapons we make today. Also strangely designed artillery shells that decrease in range as the calibre increases to the point that they have just a couple multiples the same range as someone throwing a javelin. And where the range of a Napoleonic era cannon is considered extreme.

Edited by Krivvan, 23 March 2018 - 04:30 PM.

[Duncan Aravain]

kuma8877, on 23 March 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

Just FYI, the M230 is a 30mm single barrel weapon system, that unlike the Gau, the Phalanx or Vulcan, would look an awful lot like an MWO MG if wrapped in a cooling jacket (and would be plenty small enough to mount on anything you wanted to). Where are your caliber comparisons coming from? Book or chart?

For RL, based on the gun's wikki and DoD website.
For BT values, core TT BT source books and rules. (Been playing since they were called BattleBots)
For the understanding of BattleTech lore, the source books,Sarna, and all the novels.

If one doesn't want to follow the lore or balance set up in the original game,that's on PGI. There was a huge technological loss during the wars (people piloted mechs hundreds of years old) and it wasn't until The Grey Death Legion recovered the Data Core and at least a generation passed before we got to the present state of MWO. Even then the TT system didn't boost certain weapon systems to MWO levels, Clan or not. The problem is if someone argues that mgs are OP, someone throws back that they are like a GAU-8 and are fine. The lore says that they are not. The TT game says they are not. Hell, proper game balance says they are not. If PGI makes them so, that's on PGI and deviates from Canon. Of course, PGI has been doing that for years..........

[Brain Cancer]

Duncan Aravain, on 23 March 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

One last call for sanity; the mgs of BT are NOT like the GAU-8. They are not even equivalent to the M61 Vulcan ( a 20mm multi barrel). As per the MWO illustration for the module stats, it is a single barrel weapon. The heavy machine gun in MWO was based on the M2 (.50 caliber) or the Soviet 12.7mm, the LMG based on the M60 (.30 caliber). Yes they effect Mechs.No, they weren't designed in the BT game to be used at over 270 meters or having a reasonable chance to hit any mech if the attacker had used full movement to get behind a moving mech and was over 90 meters away from the target.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion; you are not entitled to your own "facts". Except, it appears, in the MWO forums.

I'd be more inclined to follow that if it wasn't for the high ROF rules. That tends to point towards something that at least is multibarrel and can be spun up, though like AC's an MG in Battletech actually covers a fairly wide range of both round size and ROF.

[Y E O N N E]

Krivvan, on 23 March 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

Machine guns...which are along the lines of the PPCs and Laser weapons we make today. Also strangely designed artillery shells that decrease in range as the calibre increases to the point that they have just a couple multiples the same range as someone throwing a javelin. And where the range of a Napoleonic era cannon is considered extreme.

From what I understand, the loss of range for ACs in the TT rules is supposed to represent the effects of recoil firing so many shells at once; you are unlikely to hit the entire volley's worth of an AC/20 at the same 540 meters that an AC/5 operates at. In TT, it's just an obnoxiously high to-hit penalty. MWO is where it gets weird and is just noted as a loss of damage.

Brain Cancer, on 23 March 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

I'd be more inclined to follow that if it wasn't for the high ROF rules. That tends to point towards something that at least is multibarrel and can be spun up, though like AC's an MG in Battletech actually covers a fairly wide range of both round size and ROF.

Even conventional MGs are typically fired in bursts for cooling reasons (e.g. the water-cooled M1917 Browning can fire for much, much, longer than the air-cooled M1919 Browning). The Rapid Fire rules could be looked at as a prolonged burst over the interval in which a turn takes place.

[Brain Cancer]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 March 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

Even conventional MGs are typically fired in bursts for cooling reasons (e.g. the water-cooled M1917 Browning can fire for much, much, longer than the air-cooled M1919 Browning). The Rapid Fire rules could be looked at as a prolonged burst over the interval in which a turn takes place.

The reason it feels off is because an MG has to be set to high ROF or low ROF before a battle starts- and can't be switched during it. But sure.

[Y E O N N E]

Brain Cancer, on 23 March 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

The reason it feels off is because an MG has to be set to high ROF or low ROF before a battle starts- and can't be switched during it. But sure.

Honestly, like most things in TT that's really just a balance thing more than anything else. I have the current rulebook and it doesn't even provide any technical reason why this is, it just is. Even a lot of the items that do have given technical reasons for behaving the way they do...it's really just to prop up a game rule.

[kuma8877]

Duncan Aravain, on 23 March 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

For RL, based on the gun's wikki and DoD website.
For BT values, core TT BT source books and rules. (Been playing since they were called BattleBots)
For the understanding of BattleTech lore, the source books,Sarna, and all the novels.

If one doesn't want to follow the lore or balance set up in the original game,that's on PGI. There was a huge technological loss during the wars (people piloted mechs hundreds of years old) and it wasn't until The Grey Death Legion recovered the Data Core and at least a generation passed before we got to the present state of MWO. Even then the TT system didn't boost certain weapon systems to MWO levels, Clan or not. The problem is if someone argues that mgs are OP, someone throws back that they are like a GAU-8 and are fine. The lore says that they are not. The TT game says they are not. Hell, proper game balance says they are not. If PGI makes them so, that's on PGI and deviates from Canon. Of course, PGI has been doing that for years..........

I meant the correlation between what is represented in TT and it's supposed IRL caliber. I don't recall them being that specific anywhere. TT rules are 2 damage at range against a mech with bonuses against infantry, which in and of itself points towards the mech mounted MG being overkill against troops (a higher caliber than needed to kill them). Any idea what a 20mm will do to the human body? The round doesn't even need to hit the person, just pass close to them and it's game over.

The idea of a mech having to potentially face infantry, armor and other Mechs on a given mission means that to be combat effective, those MG's can't be useless against any combo of the above. And according to the rules (the basis for all the fluff and fiction) they are effective against all three, which again points to the rounds used to be of significant caliber to damage and potentially kill a mech, the hardest target of the three.

I'll take fluff with a grain of salt, and refer to the base rules otherwise we have to keep Stackpoling...

[dario03]

Devilsfury, on 23 March 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

You would have to be blind, stupid or a liar to not admit that the Piranha is crazy op broken. My bud and I recently came back after a 9 month break. He bought the piranha and said that it was pure garbage. About a week later he spent his GXP and and skilled out that mech. You should have heard the laughter. He is now putting up 550+ every match and several kills. Ive seen him do over 1200 with 7 kills in a match. Why should a light be able to put these numbers out? Hell, how can that light carry more firepower than most medium and heavy mechs? Its broken and most people know it. Its just that people paid real life money for it and want to keep their op mech. /case closed

Why shouldn't a light be able to put those numbers out? Nobody seems to care when bigger mechs do it, and you don't get to bring extra mechs if you go light.

Edited by dario03, 23 March 2018 - 06:23 PM.

[Rocket2Uranus]

Darian DelFord, on 21 March 2018 - 07:12 PM, said:

So here is a video of a match I had about 3 hours ago. In it I scored over 1k damage. Now there are many pilots on here who say that it is OP and no light should be able to score that high and it must be an OP mech. People see scores like this and lets face it.... they lose their crap and come to the forums and scream NERF NERF NERF.

So with that said.... here is the video.....Judge..... just flat out OP..... or Skill and luck?

I once piloted my Artic Cheetah for1k dmg. This was prior to new tech.

[Brain Cancer]

And as noted, he didn't get all that with the MGs, it includes an almost perfect arty strike on a cluster of opponents.

[Krivvan]

A response to those who keep saying that an Assault just has no hope killing a Piranha: https://clips.twitch...eCattleOSkomodo

[razenWing]

Krivvan, on 24 March 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:

A response to those who keep saying that an Assault just has no hope killing a Piranha: https://clips.twitch...eCattleOSkomodo

To be fair, proton can kill a piranha with 1 small laser.

[Krivvan]

razenWing, on 24 March 2018 - 05:01 PM, said:

To be fair, proton can kill a piranha with 1 small laser.

The actual lesson to learn there is that a Light mech should never want to engage a mech that is actively trying to kill it unless some very specific circumstance makes them sure that they'd come out winning.

[razenWing]

Krivvan, on 24 March 2018 - 05:46 PM, said:

The actual lesson to learn there is that a Light mech should never want to engage a mech that is actively trying to kill it unless some very specific circumstance makes them sure that they'd come out winning.

learning from that video... i also see that because the hitreg is so bad against light in this game, it's actually advantageous to use impact weapons (in proton's case lbx), single slug ac, gauss rifle, and the such against light.

Because in those case, if it registers as a hit, it's all the damage, thus, ending the 20 armor on a PIR really quickly. However, if you try to use stream weapons like mrms, lasers, and such... you can yourself dragging 90 damages across the body and won't dent the armor.

[Mawai]

Curccu, on 22 March 2018 - 01:37 AM, said:

Then let's see how long it takes a dual gauss Direwolf to kill a Piranha ? If it's on it's back - split second. How is that ok?

LOL ... a 100 ton mech vs a 20 ton mech ... I would hope it wouldn't be any other way. If you take a wrong turn in a light mech an assault SHOULD be able to finish you in one well placed hit. I had a quad gauss direwolf do that to my spider when I tried placing a UAV in a bit of an exposed location.

On the other hand, a 20 ton light mech shouldn't be able to kill an assault in a few seconds. I haven't seen a piranha in action so I can't tell if the comments are exaggerated but if there is an issue with the piranha then the problem is not the mech but the boated machine guns and perhaps some tweaks to machine guns are required.

[Krivvan]

Mawai, on 24 March 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

LOL ... a 100 ton mech vs a 20 ton mech ... I would hope it wouldn't be any other way. If you take a wrong turn in a light mech an assault SHOULD be able to finish you in one well placed hit. I had a quad gauss direwolf do that to my spider when I tried placing a UAV in a bit of an exposed location.

And a 20 ton mech should be able to kill the 100 ton mech if caught unawares or out in the open where the Light mech can out-maneuver it.

Mawai, on 24 March 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

On the other hand, a 20 ton light mech shouldn't be able to kill an assault in a few seconds. I haven't seen a piranha in action so I can't tell if the comments are exaggerated

It takes 10 seconds for a Piranha to kill the leg of an Atlas. It takes about 18 full seconds for a Piranha to go through the CT of an Atlas from the front. It takes about 5 seconds to go through the CT of an Atlas from the back. The 12 MGs still only do average damage against armor. Their extreme DPS only comes into play against open structure.

Edited by Krivvan, 24 March 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[QoS]

You can do 1000+ damage on any mech with a pair of good arty strikes.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

eh..

on piranha being op - just wait to the day they are out for cbills.
my prediction:

most people moaning that the fish is op and their assaults are just food will be the ones who'll say it's too squishy and not usable.
it lives and dies by map-awareness. and the lack of that.

yes, it's a good mech, but it requires a metric ton of work to be good - mostly from their prey. those assaults that get chewed up all the time are out of position all the time, else there wouldn't be an opportunity for the fish to eat it in the first place.

walk with the team, talk to the team - and the fish will have a hard time doing anything meaningful at all.
but I guess complaining is the easier route, right..?

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 25 March 2018 - 03:47 AM.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 25 March 2018 - 03:47 AM, said:

eh..

on piranha being op - just wait to the day they are out for cbills.
my prediction:

most people moaning that the fish is op and their assaults are just food will be the ones who'll say it's too squishy and not usable.
it lives and dies by map-awareness. and the lack of that.

yes, it's a good mech, but it requires a metric ton of work to be good - mostly from their prey. those assaults that get chewed up all the time are out of position all the time, else there wouldn't be an opportunity for the fish to eat it in the first place.

walk with the team, talk to the team - and the fish will have a hard time doing anything meaningful at all.
but I guess complaining is the easier route, right..?

Hmmm I’ve not really seen anyone say the Piranha is OP, just a certain loadout with 12MG’s that only it can wield.

[Curccu]

DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley, on 25 March 2018 - 04:32 AM, said:

Hmmm I’ve not really seen anyone say the Piranha is OP, just a certain loadout with 12MG’s that only it can wield.

Ohhh yes people have called it OP, read more post and you will see. If you could put 12MG's to Direwolf would it become the best assault in the game (again).