196 replies to this topic

[RustyBolts]

So I finally went out the "Famous" Jarls list. So what I am I missing? I fail to see the big deal as to why this list is being used to justify how good or bad a player is.

[FupDup]

We gotta measure our e-peens somehow, bro.

[Brain Cancer]

RustyBolts, on 22 March 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

So I finally went out the "Famous" Jarls list. So what I am I missing? I fail to see the big deal as to why this list is being used to justify how good or bad a player is.

People seem to hate it when annoying things like actual game data fails to prove what they're posting is actually right.

Honestly, I'd rather have all game data available. I mean, it's clearly being recorded since there's end of match and contests that use it, just put it all out there and we'll have a better idea of how well X build or player tactic is working across the entire game.

[Bombast]

It's a leaderboard that displays tracked stats, including WLR, KDR, and Average MS. That's typically how you show if someone is good or not - By their stats.

There's inherit problems in the data Jarl's uses that means it shouldn't be used as an absolute metric, but generally speaking, 1.2 or better WLR Good, 0.8 or worse WLR Bad. And so on.

[RustyBolts]

I fail to see how a WLR is a viable measurement. The WLR depends solely on the team you are on. If you end up pugging, your WLR will be lower vs an organized team. This means you can still be a very good player, just a pug player. I also see he has a formula that determines adjusted match score. Anyone can make up a formula and use that as a measurement, but it does not really mean anything, unless you believe in that formula. What is the Percentile supposed to mean?

[EnochsBook]

RustyBolts, on 22 March 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

I fail to see how a WLR is a viable measurement. The WLR depends solely on the team you are on. If you end up pugging, your WLR will be lower vs an organized team. This means you can still be a very good player, just a pug player. I also see he has a formula that determines adjusted match score. Anyone can make up a formula and use that as a measurement, but it does not really mean anything, unless you believe in that formula. What is the Percentile supposed to mean?

WLR is a good measurement because over hundreds of games, you will have been teamed with a lot of different players, whereas you have stayed the same, therefore being the only constant.
Nobody consistently gets bad teams or good teams for 200 games straight, so your team's ability is irrelevant once the list has looked at enough games. All there is left is your ability, as a player, to win more games than someone else, be it by hard carrying, killing people off early, being a very good caller/commander, etc...

The main issue with the leaderboards we have now is that they don't make the difference between solo queue and group queue, so there is the possibility that someone's great stats are a result of being carried or of always grouping with much better players.

[Edustaja]

RustyBolts, on 22 March 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

I fail to see how a WLR is a viable measurement. The WLR depends solely on the team you are on. If you end up pugging, your WLR will be lower vs an organized team. This means you can still be a very good player, just a pug player. I also see he has a formula that determines adjusted match score. Anyone can make up a formula and use that as a measurement, but it does not really mean anything, unless you believe in that formula. What is the Percentile supposed to mean?

https://en.wikipedia...Percentile_rank ; eg. [color=#000000]92% means that 92% of the population have a lower adjusted score than you.[/color]

[Sjorpha]

RustyBolts, on 22 March 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

I fail to see how a WLR is a viable measurement. The WLR depends solely on the team you are on.

Not true.

The impact of teams in solo queue averages out over time as the teams are random, the long term trend to your WLR is from your own impact on the matches. A hundred or so matches is where it starts being a useful stat, so for most people playing the game it's fairly reliable.

If you play more group queue than solo and drop in fairly large groups that can certainly skew your WLR quite a bit if the team you're playing with have very consistently high or very low WLR, so it would definitely be good if we could track only solo Q WLR for the purpose of ranking.

So yeah you have to look at a little context, but it's actually the most useful stat for measuring overall skill. Much more useful than secondary things like damage, KDR etc.

Very good players tend to have very good stats all over though, from WLR to damage and MS.

[Edustaja]

EnochsBook, on 22 March 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

The main issue with the leaderboards we have now is that they don't make the difference between solo queue and group queue, so there is the possibility that someone's great stats are a result of being carried or of always grouping with much better players.

Yeah, only the solo QP should be counted. I guess Solaris will rectify part of the issue then

[RustyBolts]

@ Enoch, your last point was my point. If you take an average player and put him on a good team consistently, then this list will show him as being better.

[Sjorpha]

RustyBolts, on 22 March 2018 - 02:03 PM, said:

@ Enoch, your last point was my point. If you take an average player and put him on a good team consistently, then this list will show him as being better.

People actually dropping more group than solo is quite rare though, even among players in active units. People doing so with consistently overperforming teams is even more rare. So for most players WLR is fairly accurate.

[K O Z A K]

You can see how the formula works described at the bottom of the jarls list page. It weighs later seasons more (as they are more representative of your current skill level) and also makes a small adjustment based on whether you play lights/mediums/heavies/assaults as on average assaults should yield you a higher match score then lights

The solo/group que argument is well known and pretty legit

for stronger players teamed up in group que with other strong players will result in very high kdr/wlr since you will more rarely get killed/lose but lower avg match score as you're competing for damage, playing mostly solo will produce a much lower kdr/wlr but higher match score

[Xmith]

RustyBolts, on 22 March 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

So I finally went out the "Famous" Jarls list. So what I am I missing? I fail to see the big deal as to why this list is being used to justify how good or bad a player is.

It's easier to use. I can get my stats at a glance. You can get everybody's at a glance. MWO and Jarls leaderboard have the same info. Digger up dirt on someone by using their stats on Jarls is just easier than MWO.

Edited by Xmith, 22 March 2018 - 02:50 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

I've seen posts on this forum somewhere complaining about the matchmaker, saying how they took many games, calculated the average Jarl's list ranks of all the players on them, and it turned out to be a fairly accurate predictor of who would win and lose. If Jarl's list was worthless, that wouldn't be the case.

[RustyBolts]

Xmith, The stats, at least mine are not even close to what MWO says. How often does it update?

[Bombast]

RustyBolts, on 22 March 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

Xmith, The stats, at least mine are not even close to what MWO says. How often does it update?

They get updated every month, first couple of days. After a season ends, basically. Jarl's does not have the current season you are probably looking at.

[Jay Leon Hart]

RustyBolts, on 22 March 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

Xmith, The stats, at least mine are not even close to what MWO says. How often does it update?

It updates around the start of every new Season (so around the 1st of each month)

It only includes data starting from Season 1, anything from before then is not publicly available so cannot be included.

[Grus]

I don't know if you've ever heard of "The Law of Large Numbers" but that's what this is.

[MischiefSC]

There are no words for how much it does my heart good to see the consistent, correct and reality based response to 'but QP w/l just shows your team is bad' sort of arguments.

Jarls list is good because of how many sorting options and comparison tools it has. It's the best source for metrics data we have. The 'rankings' part is no more relevant than people make them out to be. The stats themselves however are very useful for looking at how you perform.

[LordNothing]

i like it because it gives you an at a glance look to see if you are getting gud or not.