196 replies to this topic

[Bombast]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 23 March 2018 - 08:11 AM.
ad hominem, reply removed

[Vxheous]

Asym, on 23 March 2018 - 06:16 AM, said:

Ah, guys.....what a silly discussion. The data is nice and Jarl's does a good job using.....un-verified and wildly skewed data.

I went to Jarl's just to "see for myself" what this tool produces. I am missing seasons 4 through 7, The data in season 20 is not correct. And, after retiring from corporations that have extreme reliability metrics, ah, MWO could never produce statistics that would ever make it to any of the corporate board rooms I've served in....never. It is that invalid as many in this article and a dozen other articles have laid out... A good try at something that has zero real value.....

Your data on Jarl's list is directly pulled from MWO's leaderboards. Looking at them now, they match up exactly. You said your data in season 20 is not correct, but both Jarl's and MWO's leaderboards match exactly. I'm not going to post them here because I'm not trying to name and shame you by any means. When you say your season's 4 to 7 are missing, there is also no data for season's 4 to 7 on MWO's leaderboards for you.

Edited by Vxheous, 23 March 2018 - 06:26 AM.

[Mystere]

justcallme A S H, on 22 March 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

WLR is an excellent measurement as is KDR and then matchscore. I solo most of my matches and my WLR is above 2.0, counting only the last few seasons (after learning the game/doing more comp/improving) it is much higher.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the HDR and match score parts. They do not measure some things that actually help a team win. The two most obvious ones are "command" and "leading the vanguard".

Yeonne Greene, on 22 March 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

The fact that players with different ratings are mixing together is precisely why you can use average match score for the leaderboard.

I'd argue that W/L is still the best measurement. Even a mascot with a high W/L must be doing something right.

Edited by Mystere, 23 March 2018 - 07:04 AM.

[Krivvan]

Mystere, on 23 March 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

I'd argue that W/L is still the best measurement. Even a mascot with a high W/L must be doing something right.

W/L is going to be quite iffy as long as group queue and solo queue stats are put together. For example, my W/L jumped from the average of 2.4 to 11.50 in one season.

Edited by Krivvan, 23 March 2018 - 07:08 AM.

[Bombast]

Krivvan, on 23 March 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

W/L is going to be quite iffy as long as group queue and solo queue stats are put together. For example, my W/L jumped from the average of 2.4 to 11.50 in one season.

It is iffy because of that, but it's still a good metric.

It's pretty easy to see accounts that are being carried through group if you use MSR and KDR as a secondary stat. Baddies being carried have high WLR, but do absolutely atrocious damage and die all the time. Generally speaking, if someone's WLR is over 2-3, but they have a KDR of 1 or less, they're being group carried.

[Mystere]

Krivvan, on 23 March 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

W/L is going to be quite iffy as long as group queue and solo queue stats are put together. For example, my W/L jumped from the average of 2.4 to 11.50 in one season.

It might be iffy for people who frequent the group queue (I do not know because solos are not allowed in there ). However, for pure solos, it should be more than fine.

[Mystere]

Bombast, on 23 March 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:

It's pretty easy to see accounts that are being carried through group if you use MSR and KDR as a secondary stat. Baddies being carried have high WLR, but do absolutely atrocious damage and die all the time. Generally speaking, if someone's WLR is over 2-3, but they have a KDR of 1 or less, they're being group carried.

I'm not quite sure about some of that.

Someone who has "absolutely atrocious damage" might be effectively commanding from behind the front lines.

Someone who has a tendency to "die all the time" might be leading the vanguard/push that breaks the enemy.

However, it could be reasonably argued that both of those are still reflected in W/L.

[GBxGhostRyder]

The data provided by PGI or any other source is false data period on player data for W/L the reason is any player above 1.2 is

#1 playing on a organized team in QP or FP to attain a high W/L record or
#2 there exploiting the game or
#3 there using hacks to enhance there gameplay.

[Mystere]

GBxGhostRyder, on 23 March 2018 - 07:21 AM, said:

The data provided by PGI or any other source is false data period on player data for W/L the reason is any player above 1.2 is

#1 playing on a organized team in QP or FP to attain a high W/L record or
#2 there exploiting the game or
#3 there using hacks to enhance there gameplay.

<smh>

[Jman5]

Jarl's list is a great tool.

My only critique is that I don't think it should weigh a recent season with very few games as much as it does. For example, last month I didn't play very many games, but I moved up the ranking quite a bit. I didn't feel like I deserved it because my stats probably would have gone down a little if I had continued to play more. The opposite could also be said for some people who just happen to have some unusually lousy games in low volume season.

I suppose after a few months it corrects, but in the meantime it gives you wonky results.

Edited by Jman5, 23 March 2018 - 07:43 AM.

[Ghogiel]

RustyBolts, on 22 March 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

I fail to see how a WLR is a viable measurement. The WLR depends solely on the team you are on.

And you are part of that team. Over time your personal ability to affect a games outcome will show statistically, if you are a detriment to your teams ability to win, you will be proven unequivically a baddie at mechs. If you are a force that can drive wins for your team, you will prove that as fact in your stats.

Quote

If you end up pugging, your WLR will be lower vs an organized team. This means you can still be a very good player, just a pug player. I also see he has a formula that determines adjusted match score. Anyone can make up a formula and use that as a measurement, but it does not really mean anything, unless you believe in that formula. What is the Percentile supposed to mean?

Not sure what you mean by pugging vs organised team. The jarls list ignores FP for good reason. So there is no solo pugging vs organised teams in those stats. However the stats are quite Fubar because they lump group and QP stats together, If those were separate they'd be much more useful for statistical analysis.

[Krivvan]

Ghogiel, on 23 March 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

Not sure what you mean by pugging vs organised team. The jarls list ignores FP for good reason. So there is no solo pugging vs organised teams in those stats. However the stats are quite Fubar because they lump group and QP stats together, If those were separate they'd be much more useful for statistical analysis.

It does also help a bit that the larger a group gets in group queue, the more restrictions that group gets and the harder time they generally end up having.

[El Bandito]

Good thing I stayed out of this thread. Otherwise trying to correct some truly clueless forumers in this thread would have taken me hours.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 23 March 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

I'd argue that W/L is still the best measurement. Even a mascot with a high W/L must be doing something right.

There does appear to be a correlation, at least.

[JC Daxion]

I kinda find the list fairly pointless over all.. There are folks that try every match.. and there are folks that just screw around 90% of the time.. the one month i actually tried on leader boards in one mech i did pretty well.. the rest is just a mix/match of screwing around or leveling mechs, or trying new things or playing the worst mech i can find just to see how things go for the night.

I will say it does show i am better screwing around in my IS account over my clans.. i'll give it that, everything else.. who knows..

[Ghogiel]

Krivvan, on 23 March 2018 - 07:34 AM, said:

It does also help a bit that the larger a group gets in group queue, the more restrictions that group gets and the harder time they generally end up having.

after 9 maybe it makes a difference and you run into a cobbled up pug team with 9 assaults, but then match score will be pretty big to compensate for a struggle with a possible L. But taking an L is irrelevent as match scroe is all jarls cares about.

But besides those outlier cases where people run 8 or more and run into a fap ton of assualts, group queue in general pretty significantly damages match score due to higher team precision at deading a mech, way shorter match times, competeing against other kilo droppers against the avg group drop player. RIP match score.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

The data provided by PGI or any other source is false data period on player data for W/L the reason is any player above 1.2 is

#1 playing on a organized team in QP or FP to attain a high W/L record or
#2 there exploiting the game or
#3 there using hacks to enhance there gameplay.

[redacted]




(KH is regularly streaming and I've watched him play/played with him/spectated. Neither #1, #2, or #3 apply.)

Edited by McValium, 24 March 2018 - 01:14 PM.
cleaned up nonconstructive

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 March 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:

There does appear to be a correlation, at least.

There is a correlation. No one is saying otherwise.

However, how do you explain those rare individuals who have W/L >= 1.5 and below 200 MS?

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 23 March 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

There is a correlation. No one is saying otherwise.

However, how do you explain those rare individuals who have W/L >= 1.5 and below 200 MS?

Group play and being carried.

From my experience with the game, I would say the number players who lead game-winning charges and die early or die early and command effectively from the rear is so small that you can discount them. Which leaves group play and getting carried as the most likely explanation.

[Brain Cancer]

Since the data includes group play, that's generally a dead giveaway for a sidekick to a more successful bunch of players. They may not do much, but they learn to stay out of the way and be carried.