25 replies to this topic

[KindredSpirits]

So I made an LRM boat with my Supernova-A, been enjoying it a lot.
However I do not know if it is better to run it with Artemis or not.

Currently, Artemis is the active, because it was Artemis when I decided to make it. (If it's not the default I must have changed it some time ago, I usually run Lights.)

The build is:
4x C-LRM 20 + Artemis & 10 tons of ammo
2x C-ER Med Laser
C-AMS + & 1 ton of ammo
4x Double Heatsink

I'm capped out on slots, but not tonnage (6.5 tons free)
Standard Armor, Double Heatsinks and Endo-Steel Structure.

I know Artemis helps with clustering missiles, but because C-LRM's stream they do not benefit as much. However I can handle the extra tonnage they weigh, but I lose 2 lasers for it. That being said, I so far have not gotten *too* much use from the lasers. I'm not sure what other benefits Artemis give me, should I keep them?

Also, would I be better dropping the endo-steel structure for more slots? I can spare the tonnage, and the extra ammo/laser weapons could be more useful. It would also allow me to get more lasers if I should keep Artemis.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Artemis is very useful for missiles, they lower the spread on them so that more of your missiles are likely to hit the enemy's torso components rather than going around the mech or just hitting arms, meaning you get kills much easier. Artemis lowers spread by 25%, which is a huge boost, especially on Clan LRMs which have a high base spread value.

You could just drop the endosteel for more slots. Getting yourself an XL325 will help alot, as it can hold 3 heatsinks inside of it, netting you a gain of 2 slots, and 1.5 extra tons to use, along with faster speeds.

I'd build it like this for LRMs:
https://mwo.smurfy-n...5dc7b5aafd87f60

Though I'd rather take ATMs over the LRMs, as the build's easier to put together and it puts out way more damage, at least if you're good at positioning in closer ranges.
https://mwo.smurfy-n...95b6782a9175e4d

Note that artemis also helps ATMs but doesn't take up any extra slots or tonnage for ATMs, though the ATMs are already heavier than LRMs.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 23 March 2018 - 04:38 AM.

[Violator]

Why don't you try using TAG? I know, it's rather hard and requires some risk, but it's effective and you dont have to sacrifice the total number of LRMs you can fire. In my opinion, Artemis is more effective when used with SRMs.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Violator, on 23 March 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

Why don't you try using TAG? I know, it's rather hard and requires some risk, but it's effective and you dont have to sacrifice the total number of LRMs you can fire. In my opinion, Artemis is more effective when used with SRMs.

Better yet, TAG and Artemis for extreme accuracy. You need to get your own locks for Artemis to function anyway.

[KindredSpirits]

Violator, on 23 March 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

Why don't you try using TAG? I know, it's rather hard and requires some risk, but it's effective and you dont have to sacrifice the total number of LRMs you can fire. In my opinion, Artemis is more effective when used with SRMs.

I heard TAG doesn't stack with Artemis, but I'm very iffy on anything that doesnt go on light mechs. That being said I believe I only have 4 missile slots, and all 4 are used, so I don't sacrifice anything missile-wise to use Artemis.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

KindredSpirits, on 23 March 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

I heard TAG doesn't stack with Artemis, but I'm very iffy on anything that doesnt go on light mechs. That being said I believe I only have 4 missile slots, and all 4 are used, so I don't sacrifice anything missile-wise to use Artemis.

TAG and Artemis stack.

[Tesunie]

KindredSpirits, on 23 March 2018 - 04:00 AM, said:

However I do not know if it is better to run it with Artemis or not.

Whether to take Artemis or not depends upon the intended role that the LRMs are being taken for.

As already mentioned, Artemis does LRMs a lot of good, but to weight an extra ton and take an extra crit slot per LRM launcher. It also only provides bonuses (besides to missile locking speed) if you have personal line of sight to the target.

If you have the weight, it can be very worth it. If you are "boating" LRMs, then Artemis is likely the way to go, if for nothing else than the faster missile lock speeds.

Personally, I don't boat LRMs. I like taking them as a secondary weapon within a complimentary build. I'll use them as a bombardment/indirect fire weapon as I get my own line of sight. As such, I typically need tonnage to go towards my direct fire weapons and cooling, rather than a subsystem without my mech's planned role. For me, I don't gain as much benefit from Artemis as it's weight and crits would ask for, so I tend not to take it. (Typically, if I'm making a build for line of sight combat, I'd be sparing on the LRMs or even forgo them completely. Thus, Artemis isn't as much of a benefit to me. I also never boat LRMs, and only have a single mech (Summoner) that has only LRMs on it. All others it's only a subsystem within the build as a whole.)


You have the tonnage? Take Artemis.
You are a boat? Take Artemis.
Plan to use LRMs directly as much or more than indirect? Take Artemis.

So far, you are three for three on my "Should you take Artemis" check list...


As a note, TAG and Artemis stack bonuses. TAG and NARC stack bonuses.
NARC and Artemis do not stack (besides being a signal booster to keep the lock without any line of sight).
If you can and have the spare energy crit slot (something I normally don't in my builds), it could be worth taking a TAG as well... TAG with Artemis and direct line of sight can be very deadly with LRMs. Much faster missile lock speeds. Greatly reduced spread. I mean, it's a good combo.

[Throe]

Since you're going to have Clan LRMs, I would honestly also recommend bringing an Active Probe. It can help you target an enemy ECM carrier who is close enough to you to be affecting you with EM interference, which will otherwise almost entirely prevent you from getting a lock on them.

It's not strictly required, since you still have the option of "dumb firing" your LRMs.

Also, if you haven't already considered it, think about ATMs. They're absolutely punishing(3 damage per missile) if you can get yourself into the range sweet spot between 120 and 270m(extends with Range skills), and can still easily get you assists with targets further out.

[Rogue Jedi]

you have already had some excelent answers so I do not have much to add.

if you take Artemus off you do not just have the price of removing Artemus you also have to buy 4 new LRM20s, the Artemus LRM launchers and ammo are treated as seporate inventory items than regular (non artemus) LRM Launchers and ammo.

and just to reinforce what others have already said TAG and Artemus do most certainly stack, as do TAG and NARC, out of the missile specific support equipment only Artemus and NARC do not stack with each other.

[KindredSpirits]

Thanks a ton for the help guys, a lot of what's been said I didn't know.

I'll consider ATM's for brawlers as per a few posts suggesting it, but the SNV-A I wanted to just boat up. I'll be looking into better brawlers when I have the CBills.

I'll fiddle around a little, lose a few tons for a TAG and maybe a Probe. Definitely sounds worth it. I've also specced into radar skills so that should be a lot better. I'm getting 500-600 damage on a good game, so it's definitely doing pretty well.

'Preciate it, again. Super helpful stuff!

[Dragonporn]

Artemis is a must for LRM boats more often than not. I wouldn't recommend TAG for SNV in particular. It stacks perfectly well with any missile boating builds, but energy hardpoint is too low and you'll really need every single backup weapon you can get. Probe is also a MUST.

But keep in mind, LRMs are EXTREMELY situational weapon. You must have inhuman situational awareness and be very sneaky, (yes, in Supernova lol) to survive. But either way, if you don't get sufficient support from your team or will get unlucky map, you'll suck real bad, nothing you can do about it.

[mailin]

Dragonporn, on 23 March 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

Artemis is a must for LRM boats more often than not.

There is one caveat that doesn't apply to your situation, but I wanted to make you aware of it for the future. Artemis has diminishing value with smaller launchers. As the launchers go down, 20>15>10>5 the missile spread also goes down, therefore it reduces the usefulness of Artemis. Additionally, Aretmis costs 1 extra ton and one extra slot per launcher, so the penalty for 1 lrm 20 is one ton and 1 slot, but the penalty for 4 lrm5s is 4 tons and 4 slots. Just some things to remember for the future. Happy hunting.

[Spheroid]

You have two options given no other changes to your loadout:

( A ) 325XL, full armor + 4x mplas

or

( B ) 300 STD, 544/558 armor + 4x mlas or 3x mlas + 1 TAG


I am assuming you are using the stock 270 which is not a particularly good engine. Remember engines can store heatsinks internally equal to their rating divided by twenty five. A 270 stores zero, but a 300 can store a total of two additional internal heatsinks.

That is my recommendation. Shaving armor is not bad. Most mechs do not need the full eighteen points of head armor and most assaults don't need full leg armor as they generally succumb to CT destruction far sooner.

Also feel free to breakaway from the bonds of LRM80, it doesn't have to be the full eighty tubes. The damage is from the stored ammo delivered over time. I believe I am currently only running ALRM60 with three launchers at the moment, but obviously I have utilized the slots and tonnage in other areas. You can play around a lot even if we don't touch either the artemis or the endo. Definitely play around with the engine rating though.

Edited by Spheroid, 24 March 2018 - 07:50 AM.

[Dragonporn]

mailin, on 24 March 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

There is one caveat that doesn't apply to your situation, but I wanted to make you aware of it for the future. Artemis has diminishing value with smaller launchers. As the launchers go down, 20>15>10>5 the missile spread also goes down, therefore it reduces the usefulness of Artemis. Additionally, Aretmis costs 1 extra ton and one extra slot per launcher, so the penalty for 1 lrm 20 is one ton and 1 slot, but the penalty for 4 lrm5s is 4 tons and 4 slots. Just some things to remember for the future. Happy hunting.

I wholly agree with you, but there's one detail. Since topic is about "LRM boats", that means such average build supposed to have couple or more of 15s or 20s. If you have few 5s, it's just a support weapon for you, and you can't call this thing an LRM boat in all seriousness. So yes, Artemis would be quite necessary to have.

[Rogue Jedi]

Spheroid, on 24 March 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

I am assuming you are using the stock 270 which is not a particularly good engine. Remember engines can store heatsinks internally equal to their rating divided by twenty five. A 270 stores zero, but a 300 can store a total of two additional internal heatsinks.

just to clarify the above
engines have a number of fixed ^{(unremovable)} internal heatsinks the number is engine rating divided by 25 rounded down to a full number, with a limit of 10 of those internal fixed heat sinks, so a the Urbanmechs stock 60 engine has 2 internal heatsinks, a 100 engine has 4, a 245 has 9 and a 250 or higher rated engine has 10. your Mech must have at least 10 heatsinks to launch so if you have an engine smaller than a 250 you have to add external ^{(out of engine)} heatsinks, an Urby with its stock 60 engine needs 8 extra heatsinks, a Hunchback with its stock 200 engine needs an extra 2 sinks.

if you are using double heat sinks ^{(and there are very few cases where DHS are not far far more effective)} those fixed in-engine heatsinks are better than out of engine or optional in engine heat sinks because they offer more heat disipation and heat capacity ^{(if I remember corectly it 2.0 capacity and 0.2 disipation per second for the fixed heat sinks compaired to 1.4 and 0.14 disipation per seconds for IS and 1.1 cap and 0.15 disipation for clan regular DHS)}.

Mechs with an engine rating above 270 get an extra heatsink slot for each 25 of engine rating over 250, so the 270 just has the fixed 10, the 275 has the 10 fixed and 1 extra heatsink slot, the 300 gets 2 extra heatsink slots, the 395 has 5 and the 400 gets 6.
if you are running a Mech with a 400 engine with double heatsinks in a Clan Mech that is effectively 12 "free" ^{(you would have to use 12 slots on the Mech to get that ammount of extra cooling)} crit slots which you can use for something else, and 18 "free" slots for IS

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 25 March 2018 - 04:21 AM.

[mailin]

Dragonporn, on 24 March 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

I wholly agree with you, but there's one detail. Since topic is about "LRM boats", that means such average build supposed to have couple or more of 15s or 20s. If you have few 5s, it's just a support weapon for you, and you can't call this thing an LRM boat in all seriousness. So yes, Artemis would be quite necessary to have.

I must respectfully disagree. I have a Stalker 5m with 5 lrm 5s. I chain fire them and provide a steady stream of lrms on the target. I also do a similar thing with an Archer (I think it has 7 lrm 5s). A boat doesn't necessarily only have to have lrm 20 or 15s.

Edited by mailin, 25 March 2018 - 05:38 PM.

[BTGbullseye]

mailin, on 25 March 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

I must respectfully disagree. I have a Stalker 5m with 5 lrm 5s. I chain fire them and provide a steady stream of lrms on the target. I also do a similar thing with an Archer (I think it has 7 lrm 5s). A boat doesn't necessarily only have to have lrm 20 or 15s.

Sounds like dinner for my Sunspider Vanguard... It has a pair of 20's and a 15. 25 damage constant fire vs 55 in a similar amount of time. Add in AMS, and your fire is about 50% as effective as mine.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 25 March 2018 - 11:59 PM.

[Tesunie]

BTGbullseye, on 25 March 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

Sounds like dinner for my Sunspider Vanguard... It has a pair of 20's and a 15. 25 damage constant fire vs 55 in a similar amount of time. Add in AMS, and your fire is about 50% as effective as mine.

Those two designs have different roles from their loudouts.

The Stalker is designed as a suppression and DPS build, knocking the target around and keeping damage going over a longer course of time. If it comes across AMS, it also is intended to drain that system faster or be alphaed (with ghost heat sadly) to try and punch through.

The Sun Spider you use is intended to do bursts of damage per volley, dealing damage with shorter lock times. It has the added benefit of enough missiles in the air to possibly cut through AMS to deal damage upon a single volley. It's shaking and suppression benefits are still there, but more as much as the Stalker build might.

Meanwhile, my own Sun Spider build has two LRM15s, two UAC5s and a HML. It's designed to deal smaller bursts of damage from short lock times like your design but not as well, but also has the direct fire weapons to do a little pin point shooting. A different intended role (actually it fills in two roles compared to a boat, giving it some extra tactical flexibility) than either previous mentioned designs.

A lot of things just depend upon how you intend to use it. I've seen massed LRM5s work really well. I've also seen large launchers work well. Just depends upon how you play and what you intend to do. Each can be effective tactics (though I do tend to find the larger launchers more effective for dealing damage).

I will comment that at one time smaller launchers was the way to go due to cool down speeds and tighter spreads. Recently (relatively speaking) that's changed, placing larger launchers into a more favorable position than previously. Massed LRM5s still can work, but I have a suspicion that the Stalker build may be an older design loudout (which doesn't mean it isn't still effective).

[Kroete]

KindredSpirits, on 23 March 2018 - 04:00 AM, said:

The build is:
4x C-LRM 20 + Artemis & 10 tons of ammo
2x C-ER Med Laser
C-AMS + & 1 ton of ammo
4x Double Heatsink

I'm capped out on slots, but not tonnage (6.5 tons free)
Standard Armor, Double Heatsinks and Endo-Steel Structure.

Artemis is more for the fast locks then the spread,
if you take mostly your own locks, take it.

Had also problems filling the tons for my snv-a,
after some trys i find the following (a little less lrms, but more secondary firepower, cooling and speed then yours):

Standart armor and endosteel structur,
XL 325 with 3 heat sinks,
4x alrm15 (with 12 tons of ammo (10 is enough)),
ams with 1 ton ammo,
4 mpl,
cap,
another 3 heatsinks,
and 1 jumpjet to fill tonnage and slots (i dont use it often, but i also dont need more ammo...).
0,5 tons and 0 slots left. (If you want 0/0 take only 10,5 tons ammo and two jumpjets)

Edited by Kroete, 01 April 2018 - 07:40 AM.

[Tesunie]

Kroete, on 01 April 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

Had also problems filling the tons for my snv-a,
after some trys i find the following (a little less lrms, but more secondary firepower, cooling and speed then yours):

It sounds like the Supernova (at least the way you guys are building it) has crit space problems much like the Huntsmen. Consider when you are building it to look at equipment that has higher tonnage to crit slot taken.

For example, MLs and MPLs each take up 1 ton per crit slot, despite the MPL being heavier. However, the ERLL weight 4 tons, meaning it occupies 4 tons per crit slot, helping to fill in that weight. Meanwhile, a DHS takes up two slots and weights 1 ton, meaning it's light per crit slot at 0.5 tons per crit, leading to filling a lot of crit slots for very little weight.

When I build my Huntsmen, I often times have to plan on at least one weight heavy per crit slot equipment, such as a PPC, LPL, ERLL, UAC10, LRM10s (ish), etc. Then, I'll fill in complimentary weapons, ammo and sinks as needed to finish the build. This leads to builds such as my LPL and four MPL Huntsmen, instead of a more unified six MPL with additional cooling (which you can't exactly do as you run out of crits long before you run out of space...)

If you wished to try, you could (for example) mix LPLs and ERMLs to try and fill more tonnage (instead of taking JJs possibly). Or even two ERLL and two ERMLs, with four LRM15s. All else basically the same excluding the JJ. (Not sure how the heat on that might be.) Just as examples of using weightier components to fill in tonnage over crits. (It can be a bit confusing to explain...)