99 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

AMS is not worth 10 tons of armor. But certainly it can save your team from losing 1.5 tons of armor, which pays for itself.

So I would say AMS is worth taking in any game where you can reasonably expect to encounter LRMs.

[NeoCodex]

Jman5, on 25 March 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

I fully agree. I always bring it with me. It's also very efficient against ATMs, MRMs, SRMs and streaks, missiles of any kind. LRMs are the least of my worries actually. And often it will shoot down missiles locking your teammate, that couldn't get into cover, as well. And if even more people have it, it certainly helps. legs, arms and head to fit in the AMS.

I'm not much for lurming myself, but when I tried ATMs, I found them to be completely useless if anything in the general direction I was ATMing at had some form of AMS. Each of those missiles do a ton of damage but AMS almost completely counters it. So ever since civil war update, I always bring it.

I would never call it 10 tons of armor's worth per se, but I gladly shave off a couple off points of armor from my legs/arms/head for it.

Edited by NeoCodex, 25 March 2018 - 05:25 PM.

[Xiphias]

Jman5, on 25 March 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

If you're not on a comp team or playing in a comp match, I think AMS is worth bringing.

I mostly agree that AMS can be worth bringing for your average pug. I still don't think it's worth taking on fast lights though. You can easily avoid long range missiles and it's not going to do much if you run into a streak boat up close. It also has a tendency to bird dog your position and I doubt the average pug is going to be cognizant enough to keep toggling it off and on to stay hidden. The extra tonnage is also a much bigger deal on lights than on something heavier.

[NeoCodex]

Xiphias, on 25 March 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

I mostly agree that AMS can be worth bringing for your average pug. I still don't think it's worth taking on fast lights though. You can easily avoid long range missiles and it's not going to do much if you run into a streak boat up close. It also has a tendency to bird dog your position and I doubt the average pug is going to be cognizant enough to keep toggling it off and on to stay hidden. The extra tonnage is also a much bigger deal on lights than on something heavier.

Fast lights are different. I don't play fast lights. In my post above I was speaking as a primarily heavy pilot, where I always find some tonnage to spare for AMS.

Edited by NeoCodex, 25 March 2018 - 05:44 PM.

[Xiphias]

NeoCodex, on 25 March 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

Fast lights are different. I don't play fast lights. In my post above I was speaking as a primarily heavy pilot, where I always find some tonnage to spare for AMS.

To be clear, I was addressing JMan's point, not yours.

[NeoCodex]

Xiphias, on 25 March 2018 - 05:52 PM, said:

To be clear, I was addressing JMan's point, not yours.

Yeah I saw the quote. But was he saying it's worth bringing it on a light? I think that's pretty obvious tough, most lights either can't spare the tonnage or don't even have hardpoints to equip it.

Edited by NeoCodex, 25 March 2018 - 05:56 PM.

[Yosharian]

How much damage does your AMS mitigate from my 53 point laser alpha strike?

Also, AMS doesn't just use up tonnage. It also uses up critical slots, which is actually a major problem on many of my mech builds, especially the assaults. If AMS took up no space I would take it without hesitation on a lot more mechs.

So it's disingenuous to say that it's worth X amount of armor. Armor doesn't take up space. AMS does.

Edited by Yosharian, 25 March 2018 - 06:45 PM.

[Xiphias]

NeoCodex, on 25 March 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

Yeah I saw the quote. But was he saying it's worth bringing it on a light? I think that's pretty obvious tough, most lights either can't spare the tonnage or don't even have hardpoints to equip it.

Unclear, but he never limits it so I took it to be all mechs from the way it was phrased. At least on the heavier lights you have tonnage if you drop some heatsinks, still not worth in in my opinion. I can't think of any lights that don't have at least 1 AMS hardpoint though.

[IllCaesar]

A lot of talk about positioning but often when one mech can position to avoid missiles another can't. Also just because you broke a lock doesn't mean those missiles aren't still coming - its not uncommon for missiles meant for you to hit the guy you just walked past. Pssst, LRMers, this is why you have to be very careful about LRMing any targets that are brawling with an ally. AMS isn't just for you, its for the team. You should place it based less on weight class or weapon loadout and more on your role. For example, in one of my Locusts or Commandos I can fit an AMS but it doesn't really help much. In fact it often gives away my position and it won't be of much help to my allies. If I'm lugging around in a slower Panther or Kit Fox and am frequently around allied mediums or heavies then an AMS is a fairly good investment. Running around at 105 KPH in a Blackjack? Not necessarily a good choice. Slugging it out alongside an allied Roughneck in my 81 KPH Hunchback? AMS works pretty well. Even some of the faster heavy and assault mechs are often better off with more ammo or heatsinks than AMS.

Edited by IllCaesar, 25 March 2018 - 08:04 PM.

[Jman5]

I was mostly talking in generalities. There are lots of specific builds where it's hard for me to justify AMS. Like if I have to sacrifice a good omnipod for it, if slot space is an issue, if I already have ECM equipped, if I really need more ammo and there is just nothing else left to cut, or if I'm cutting critical armor already.

Still, I think for most builds not running them, it's trivial to find room for at least half-ton AMS. Engine downgrades for IS and some Clan mechs is often a no-brainer. -2kph or whatever is meaningless and there is no longer added agility for bigger engines. I also think you can hardly notice the difference with 1 less external heatsink.

As for Lights bringing AMS, I'm not sure there is one right or wrong answer here. I think out of all the weight classes lights have the easiest time dodging missiles. At the same time, their speed also makes them the best at quickly supporting teammates when they're being targeted by missiles. Yet their weight makes it tougher to fit. I guess my feeling is if all you need to do is downgrade your engine, it's probably a good trade. If your build isn't ludicrously hot, losing 1 heatsink probably wont make much of a difference. All the small laser class of weapons are running way cooler since the last two patches hit, so for light mechs using those weapons, the extra heatsinks you're running may no longer be as critical as they once were.

I dunno guys. I get hit by truck load of missiles in the solo queue no matter what mech I'm playing. So I'm pretty happy if I can find a way to squeeze an AMS in there somewhere.

Edited by Jman5, 26 March 2018 - 07:58 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

NeoCodex, on 25 March 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

I fully agree. I always bring it with me. It's also very efficient against ATMs, MRMs, SRMs and streaks, missiles of any kind. LRMs are the least of my worries actually. And often it will shoot down missiles locking your teammate, that couldn't get into cover, as well. And if even more people have it, it certainly helps. legs, arms and head to fit in the AMS.

Wait a second.

A fully skilled AMS kills:

SRMs (270m): 2 missiles (4.3 dmg)
S-SRMs (270m): 4 missiles (8 dmg)
MRMs: 2-3 missiles (2-3 dmg)
ATMs: 5-7 missiles (10-21 dmg)
LRMs: 5 missiles (5 dmg)
C-LRMs: 7-8 missiles (7-8 dmg)

Effective against MRMs, it is most certainly not. And the closer someone gets with SRMs, the worse AMS becomes thanks to short flight times. As you can see, it tends to maul ATMs and LRMs most effectively in terms of how much damage it stops. Note, this is assuming your AMS isn't already engaging and they don't slip a shot in between the 0.5 intervals AMS takes to check if a new launch is within it's reach.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 25 March 2018 - 09:21 PM.

[NeoCodex]

Oh nice, I was actually looking for some info on how much missiles it takes down per class.

The ATM damage reduction is just insane, it almost completely denies them, that's why I started to love it. Why is it so weak against MRMs though? Only 2 missiles... from medium range? Seems odd. What about MRM40 and tube limit?

The part of the question - is it worth it's weight - the value of AMS weight changed over the years, weight works differently now with the new tech, and also let's not forget - engine decoupling.

I used to be a strong anti-ams believer back in the day, I never put it on any of my mechs, in times before the srm fix in the poptart meta when highlanders, victors and cataphracts, it made little sense to equip AMS, most often not worth it. But with the addition of clans, fixed srm, civil war tech, nerfed ecm, there's just more and more types of missiles, builds and finally, situations, where it's becoming handy. And when more people start thinking "hey it's actually very good against ATMs" and start bringing it, it further stacks it's effectiveness in the team. From the games I play, it really seems worth it to me.

Civil war tech really expanded options with the builds and it's easier to find room now: light engines, light ferro, more types of weapon options and finally - engine decoupling; going with a slightly smaller engine won't reduce your agility anymore, creates valid questions - do I really need exactly a 350 in this build? Every time I go back to update one of my old builds there's really no problems finding room for AMS these days which means it takes less away from the build effectiveness as it did before, you can simply slap on light ferro or reduce engine size by one step - free AMS - why not? I just see no reason not to take it.

Edited by NeoCodex, 25 March 2018 - 11:58 PM.

[Athom83]

El Bandito, on 24 March 2018 - 01:46 AM, said:

From my old old thread of 2014. With AMS RoF nodes it should become even more efficient, at least 40% more efficient.

Plus AMS range buffs since then, and AMS range getting effected by skill tree.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Krivvan, on 25 March 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

Using up ammo doesn't mean it's useful. Only if the ammo was used to shoot missiles that were actually going to hit anything, which is rarely the case.

You are in control of the device. If you arent paying attention and toggling it on and off, that is your fault.

[NeoCodex]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 26 March 2018 - 05:27 AM, said:

You are in control of the device. If you arent paying attention and toggling it on and off, that is your fault.

But also to be honest, I can count maybe 1 or 2 times in my MWO career where ams actually ran out of ammo (since the 2.000 rounds buff).

[Jman5]

NeoCodex, on 25 March 2018 - 11:47 PM, said:

Why is it so weak against MRMs though? Only 2 missiles... from medium range? Seems odd. What about MRM40 and tube limit?

I have never tested MRMs vs AMS myself so I can't vouch for the numbers, but MRMs have the fastest projectile speed of any missile. Also it gets 1 missile per point of damage so it has lots of missiles to spare. I suppose the staggered fire should work in AMS' favor so maybe different sized MRMs are more or less effected by AMS.

The wildcard is how many hitpoints individual missiles have. Apparently they're different from one missile weapon to another, but PGI doesn't release these numbers and I have no clue where to find them.

[El Bandito]

Yosharian, on 25 March 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

So it's disingenuous to say that it's worth X amount of armor. Armor doesn't take up space. AMS does.

You can bring both. You do not have to shave armor for AMS.

Jman5, on 26 March 2018 - 06:29 AM, said:

I have never tested MRMs vs AMS myself so I can't vouch for the numbers, but MRMs have the fastest projectile speed of any missile.

Technically NARC pod has the fastest velocity at 500 m/s. MRM is 475, and SRM is 400. Of course, when my MRM100 Cyclops alphas its load, it overwhelms AMS easily.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 March 2018 - 08:38 AM.

[Dee Eight]

The "meta" is scouting is predominately short range missiles or streaks and while AMS has less time to deal with them (since they move faster than LRMs) they can still exceed their tonnage in protection value. I do all my scouting matches in a either a streak/mg bushwacker or a streak/mpl huntsman and both carry AMS. Even just facing off alone against a griffin 2N with quad SRM6+artemis yesterday on one match... I stopped 26 of his missiles... that's 52 damage... or... put another way... 1.33 tons of the FF armor on my huntsman saved which let me hang in the fight longer. I eventually got the better of him because like many IS mediums... he packed in a lot of weapon and not much heat sinkage. Kintaro players seem to be the worst this event with stuffing in multiple streak 6s which then quickly overheat themselves.

I'm about to drop a ten match string of scouting... let's see what happens...

BSW-X1(S), 300XL, BAP, Endo, AMS, LL, 4xMG, 3xSSRM2, 368 armor, 15DHS, double strikes, double cool, 30 nodes firepower, 21 survival, 11 op, 19 sensors (I chased all the radar dep nodes), 10 aux. All the survival nodes and quirks add up to 127 pts of bonus armor.

So...matchup has four bushies, mine, a pair of P1s and another X1. We're on protection duty. The pair of P1s were from a unit called MXM' whoever that is. So... two huntsman with just SSRM6s, a cheetah with MGs mainly and a UAC/10 & 6 small laser crow. My AMS only destroyed 8 missiles in a close range furball river city, Fox side of the citadel in the water with the rocks and bridge. Team lost and I had the only kill and also the only AMS.

Second matchup... got my bushy, an X2 bushy, an Assassin hero, and a wolverine 7D on terra therma protection duty. two crows and two huntsman, mix of srms, ssrms, lasers and I think I saw an LB20 on one crow. One sec I'll review the shadow play... 53 missiles destroyed using 763 AMS rounds. Another tight furball next to one of the lava flows. Team won 4 to 2 and I had 3 of the kills.

Third matchup... me, another X1, Kintaro 18 and Griffin 2N on polar protection duty vs two huntsman heros, a cheetah and an arc wolf. One huntsman was 5 streak 6s, a streak 4 and a tag and I killed him first. Second huntman was four streak 6s, 2 streak 2s, 2 mPL and I killed him second. The ArcWolf had ECM, 2 ERML and 2 ATM-9s and died third. The cheetah was 4 ERML and I killed him as well after her turned back to engage us. 110 missiles were destroyed by my AMS (and only I had one of the four of us) for 824 rounds expended with more open terrain (where my AMS wasn't hitting terrain instead of missiles) and it was a perfect 4 to 0 game. Now since the whole match occurred across 500m or less of the map...that meant every missile was worth at least 2 pts of damage prevent (since the ATMs were in the 3 or 2 pt range bands), so that's 220 damage prevented. I got good shadowplay results of the terra and polar if its desired I youtube 'em. Now I deliberately engaged the missile mechs first...if I'd started with the cheetah my AMS likely would have intercepted more missiles, because every one of them I killed there were less missiles being launched for it to intercept.

Fourth match... me, bush P1, Griffin 2N, Griffin 5M(L), frozen city protection vs 3 streak arctic wolves... a prime with quad Streak 6s, a pair of 1s that were boating Streak-2s, and a piranha 3 loaded mostly with micro lasers. I killed the piranha myself and one AW killed another via missplaced strike. two of my team each claimed another wolf as a kill. 2:43 battle time near the dropship. 98 missiles destroyed on 927 AMS rounds expended. There was a lot of missplaced strikes...one of my team hit the top ridge of the back map at the start of the fight...quite the thing to watch on the replay. Again I had the only AMS.

Fifth match... forest protection...me, CN9-AH(L), TBT-7M with dual MRM40s (and not enough ammo apparently), KTO-18 vs SCR-A with 5xSRM6, SCR-D with 5xSRM6 & 1 ERLL, HMN-Prime with 6xSSRM6, and i didn't see the contents of the last crow before he went boom.The whole fight basically happened at G6 in a 200 meter area between the ridge and all those large shipping containers/crates. Came down to the all srm crow and the trebuchet and both ran out of ammo. 714 AMS rounds expended to stop 76 missiles and I got one of the 3 kills (the TBT got a pair). Enemy won since of course the crow just needed to get to the dropship.


Next five are using my double AMS bushwacker S2, if 1 AMS is good...then 2 must be better right ? 280XL, Endo, 352 armor, BAP, 2xAMS, 4xSSRM2, 1xLB5, 2xSL.42 FP, 15 Survival, 9 Op, 15 Sensor and 10 Aux nodes.

Sixth match...myself, pair of GRF-2Ns and a CDA-X5 on terra therma collection versus ACW-1 with 5xSRM4+artemis, SCR-Prime(C) trial build, HBK2C with UAC/20 and 3xHMG and i didn't see what the 4th had before it was killed at virtually the same moment I was but it was LRMs or ATMs that had come out of it. I was the only casualty but still 826 AMS rounds stopped 125 missiles before dying. Again the pattern continues of I'm the only one with AMS installed.

Seventh... Rubellite protech with CN9-A, GRF-2N, GRF-5M(L) versus HBK-2C-A with 2xHLL,4xMPL , HBK-2C-B w/2xERML & 4xSSRM6, HMN-PA w/4xSSRM6, 2xSSRM2 and 2xERML, NVA-Prime w/12xERSL. Stopped 49 missiles with 310 rounds of AMS and got 2 out of our 4 kills in a 4 to 0 match. Two of the enemy didn't make 100 match score (the HMN and the Heavy Laser HBK). The centurion also carried an AMS.

Eigth...HBK-4SP, ASN-101, BSW-X2 and myself doing a frozen city gathering versus WELL...four not coward crows apparently...as the other thee members of my team ran from the initial encounter leaving myself alone against the 4 crows. The HBK was dual MRM30s and I didn't see what the other two head before they died. I got the first of two kills. Two crows were identical prime specials with Triple SRM6+Artemis and an LB20, 1 was a crow-D with 4xSRM6+Art and 6xSPL, and I didn't see the 4th's loadout. 185 rounds of AMS stopped 15 SRMs and I died first. No other AMS present.

Ninth... 3 guys from CWCG...a JVN-10P, CRB-27, BSW-S2 and my S2 again and the crab had an AMS and the S2 had a double AMS like me gathering on Crimson versus 4 soon to be dead clan mechs. I used 220 AMS to stop 26 missiles but I don't know what the other two claimed but i had hardly any damage. Fighting happened near the mid tunnel exit and the ramp. A SHC-A with 3xSRM6 and 2xMPL who got died first and then a nova-prime with 12xERML died second, A Crow-B with 4xSSRM6+Art & 5xERSL who died 3rd to me, and the fourth was a HMN-P w/4xSRM6 and a UAC/5. At the end I was at 86% the other bushwacker 88% and both the crab and javelin were at 72%. The whole battle was over in 1:38 and we forced combat at the pickup point by claiming a quick 12 intel points (smoke was in the valley outside the mid tunnel gate).I had 2 kmdd, 5 components and top damage at 417 of the four of us. Everyone got a kill and 3 assists.

Now that game is pretty telling since people keep making the argument "well none of the top comp players or streamers carry AMS" to justify not doing it themselves well... here we had 3 from Clanwacht Clan Geisterbaer who are currently the 55th rank loyalist unit in the FP leaderboard with only 17 members. The players in question...the guy in the Javelin, 89% overall on jarl's, and 5.33 WLR and 2.58KDR from 38 matches in FP so far this current season. The guy in the crab 84% overall on jarl's, and 4.19 WLR/1.76 KDR over 190 FP matches. And the guy in the other Bushwacker is 86% on jarls and 2.98WLR/2.14KDR over 183 matches in FP. Now that would seem to be to be pretty good results by people carrying AMS instead of more heat sinks or ammo.

Anyway back to my testing...tenth match..three bushwackers, mine, an P1 and a HR along with a SHD-GD on polar protection versus a crow, ice ferret, and two hbk2c's and they were all ballistic/energy so my AMS didn't fire at all. So 1 match in 10 it didn't get used. All ten matches resulted in 100+ match scores so 20 more loot bags.

Edited by Dee Eight, 26 March 2018 - 09:02 AM.

[Dogstar]

I'm always impressed with Dee Eight's attention to detail and stats. Well done!

[yrrot]

2 slots and 1 ton (AMS + 1/2 ton ammo) isn't too bad of a sacrifice to mitigate a little damage coming in from missiles. With an event going on that encourages people to play scouting, any damage mitigation that makes common boats like the stormcrow/huntsman or bushwacker less effective is good.

With the survival upgrades, it does a number on chain fired streaks especially. If you manage to take out 32 damage over the course of an entire scouting match, you've saved 1 ton of armor. That's only shooting down 16 SRMs/SSRMs total.

For this event, absolutely worth it, if you can manage to cram it into a build or sacrifice a DHS to put it in.