61 replies to this topic

[Exilyth]

C-Narc (and Narc) could use a bit more ammo/ton.


... was that random enough for this thread?

[JohnnyWayne]

Bud Crue, on 26 March 2018 - 05:49 AM, said:

In the spirit of the thread title (or at least how I am interpreting that “spirit”), I agree that some clan mechs could use some buffs.
No really. Its true.

I would argue that if the base line of clan assault performance is the MK-II, then sure I want my Kodiaks to have their agility buffed so they are somewhere near that level of performance. I think a few of the Gargoyle variants could tolerate some buffs too without being made OP. Would anyone really object to a bit of an agility buff to the Night Gyr in this post Gauss/PPC GH world? I mean the things are more akin to large fence posts than to a mobile weapons platform; they could use a bit of an agility buff I think. I think too that the Viper is an under performer at 40 tons relative to at least the Assassin and could therefore maybe use some love. And finally, and imho the most agregious one: despite PGIs apparent belief that the Timber is some sort of dominant heavy, I think it ought to have its negative quirks removed.

So yeah, a select few clan mechs could use some very select and focused buffs; but that is about it (as to the AC issue in the OP...beats me, I never run the damn things).

I agree wholeheartedly. Especially the agility nerfs hit clans way harder than IS. The Timberwolfs agility is a joke, everyone switches to the EBJ. cSPL are just as dead as any small laser (except probably CERSL) in the game. Fixes are needed for both sides on this one. More than 6 MGs should have gotten ghost heat about half a year ago.

I agree that the tonnage difference is not justified anymore. But reducing it to 240 would change little to nothing as I can still bring 2 ANH. Clan Assaults are in a sad state of durability and only excel when they have cover. You can't play anything but Gauss + a few lasers on them as every other weaponsystem was nerfed to death or "decoupled". Now the chronical "clan op" screamers would scream LRM and ATM. The answer I have for these is: Finally uninstall the game ffs.

I experienced IS pugs the last days and met quite a few players that cried about high clan alphas and their OP mechs. These guys didnt break 1k damage but used 4 mechs. They couldnt do 250 damage each mech. Looking these up it clearly showed that they are terrbile players yet they cry nerf clans instead of learning to play. It is also known as Dunning-Kruger-Effect.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 26 March 2018 - 07:20 AM.

[Bud Crue]

JohnnyWayne, on 26 March 2018 - 07:11 AM, said:

I agree that the tonnage difference is not justified anymore. But reducing it to 240 would change little to nothing as I can still bring 2 ANH. Clan Assaults are in a sad state of durability and only excel when they have cover. You can't play anything but Gauss + a few lasers on them as every other weaponsystem was nerfed to death or "decoupled". Now the chronical "clan op" screamers would scream LRM and ATM. The answer I have for these is: Finally uninstall the game ffs.

I don’t play enough CW anymore to have an opinion on the tonnage difference. The few times I have ever played CW as a clanner (I only started playing clan mechs with the skills tree drop last May) we did fine until we ran into one of the CW regulars who stomped us, (It might have been EVIL or maybe K-Com...don’t remember it was several months ago), but that is frankly no different than when we play IS. As a casual I don’t expect to consistently win against teams that play the mode with dedication (apropos, it boggles me that this is so hard for some people to accept) but regardless, I don’t think the tonnage difference has had that much impact in the matches we have won or lost over the years on either side of the divide.

[Krivvan]

Samial, on 26 March 2018 - 05:28 AM, said:

but heat and rof.. both of which are easily mitigated by the player

Those are quite literally some of the only things that can't be fully mitigated by a player. A good player can't make their mech's DPS higher than it can mathematically go. They can make what DPS they have more effective, but they can't increase it outright.

[Dogstar]

Krivvan, on 25 March 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

but IS mechs are generally on par with Clan mechs, and overall it's relatively balanced at the top.

So tell me which IS mech I can use to get the same alpha as my 2xHLL+5xERML laser vomit Hellbringer? Even a triple LPL+MPL Battlemaster doesn't quite make the grade and thats 20 (?) tons heavier, heavily quirked, and still can't survive a side torso blowout.

Honestly IS mechs do not compete with clan mechs on a ton for ton basis except for a few marginally closer mechs that are heavily quirked, and even then they still don't have the survivability of any clan mech thanks to ISXL flaws.

Tech base has to be balanced, not identically but there has to be better balance

and clan pilots need to stop crying crocodile tears every time balance gets closer


To choose a lesser matchup what mech matches up to a quad ac2 Sun Spider? A Rifleman build will be almost 20kph slower with the same firepower.

Oh and for reference here are my two accounts, surely if clan and Is are balanced I should get similar results on each account? It's not even close.

Edited by Dogstar, 26 March 2018 - 08:49 AM.

[Krivvan]

Dogstar, on 26 March 2018 - 08:40 AM, said:

So tell me which IS mech I can use to get the same alpha as my 2xHLL+5xERML laser vomit Hellbringer? Even a triple LPL+MPL Battlemaster doesn't quite make the grade and thats 20 (?) tons heavier, heavily quirked, and still can't survive a side torso blowout.

To choose a lesser matchup what mech matches up to a quad ac2 Sun Spider? A Rifleman build will be almost 20kph slower with the same firepower.

You're thinking of IS builds totally wrong. You don't tend to try to maximize your alpha with IS mechs, you maximize your sustained DPS and take advantage of your higher HP values. The Quickdraw-IV4 has the same HP as a Dire Wolf and has higher DPS with just two MRM30 with Medium mech agility and running 80 kph without using IS XL. The downside obviously being that you need to get in close. Similar story with the 2xLBX20 Warhammer but with more range and less HP. The Dragon-5N and Ilya deal greater DPS than any Hellbringer using UAC builds at the same ranges (especially since IS ballistics often have superior or identical max range compared to Clan ballistics). The PPC Grasshopper deals greater pinpoint damage than the PPC Summoner (although other aspects of the Summoner make it favorable).

But IS lasers do tend to win out when looking at Light mech builds. The IS ML Jenner outperforms the cERML Jenner-IIC in every way except for range. The MPL Wolfhound completely destroys a cMPL ACH. There's a reason all the best Clan Lights tend to not use lasers at the moment and instead preferring MGs.

Also, IS Mechs tend to use LFE now and no longer suffer from side torso deaths unless they are Light mechs where the LFE is optional.

Quad AC2 or LBX2 Jagermech-S has higher burst firepower with higher mounts, more HP, the same amount of ammo, and at only 10 kph slower without using an IS XL. The tradeoffs being slightly hotter and therefore having less DPS over extremely prolonged engagements (although 4 AC2s/LBX2s are already quite cold), and relying on arm mounts rather than torso mounts which is both an advantage and disadvantage.

Clans were outright OP when they were first introduced, but it heavily equalized during the original Quirkening, and for the past year and a half they have reached equilibrium, at least when comparing their best mechs.

Edited by Krivvan, 26 March 2018 - 09:13 AM.

[El Bandito]

Formosa The God, on 26 March 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

Jumped over to IS faction action last night after a gap of a year or two playing just clans, jesus it was laughably easy to win, I honestly just think the IS PUGS are better than the Clan ones.

How can that be, when Clan apologists had been saying for three years that the only reason Clans defeated IS three years in a row was because Clan pugs are better than IS pugs, and not thanks to tech difference.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 March 2018 - 08:58 AM.

[Dogstar]

Krivvan, on 26 March 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

You're thinking of IS builds totally wrong. You don't tend to try to maximize your alpha with IS mechs, you maximize your sustained DPS and take advantage of your higher HP values. The Quickdraw-IV4 has more HP than a Dire Wolf and has higher DPS with just two MRM30 with Medium mech agility. The downside obviously being that you need to get in close. Similar story with the 2xLBX20 Warhammer but with more range and less HP. The Dragon-5N and Ilya deal greater DPS than any Hellbringer using UAC builds at the same ranges (especially since IS ballistics often have superior or identical max range compared to Clan ballistics). The PPC Grasshopper deals greater pinpoint damage than the PPC Summoner (although other aspects of the Summoner make it favorable).

But IS lasers do tend to win out when looking at Light mech builds. The IS ML Jenner outperforms the cERML Jenner-IIC in every way except for range. The MPL Wolfhound completely destroys a cMPL ACH. There's a reason all the best Clan Lights tend to not use lasers at the moment and instead preferring MGs.

Also, IS Mechs tend to use LFE now and no longer suffer from side torso deaths unless they are Light mechs where the LFE is optional.

Quad AC2 or LBX2 Jagermech-S has higher burst firepower with higher mounts, more HP, the same amount of ammo, and at only 10 kph slower without using an IS XL. The tradeoffs being slightly hotter and therefore having less DPS over extremely prolonged engagements (although 4 AC2s/LBX2s are already quite cold), and relying on arm mounts rather than torso mounts which is both an advantage and disadvantage.

Clans were outright OP when they were first introduced, but it heavily equalized during the original Quirkening, and for the past year and a half they have reached equilibrium, at least when comparing their best mechs.

Thanks, some good points in there, I'll have to rethink a few builds as it's been almost half a year since I've played IS now.

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 26 March 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

How can that be, when Clan apologists had been saying for three years that the only reason Clans defeated IS three years in a row was because Clan pugs are better than IS pugs, and not thanks to tech difference.

Clan pugs were always better, but then IS got massive tech and chassis buffs, and clan pugs can no longer mitigate it with their superior skill. I dont see any contradiction here

[El Bandito]

JohnnyWayne, on 25 March 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

Hey Mr. Wiseguy, I can do the same thing too. This was only a month ago.

Nema Nabojiv, on 26 March 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Clan pugs were always better, but then IS got massive tech and chassis buffs, and clan pugs can no longer mitigate it with their superior skill. I dont see any contradiction here

Let's hope you are joking, cause the skill tree preemtive nerfs had cut down IS offensive ability quite a bit while buffing that of Clan meta mechs'. I don't see IS invading Clan homeworlds.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 March 2018 - 09:10 AM.

[Krivvan]

Dogstar, on 26 March 2018 - 09:02 AM, said:

Thanks, some good points in there, I'll have to rethink a few builds as it's been almost half a year since I've played IS now.

It's 1v1, so the balance is admittedly different and brawl is easier to use, but some recent 1v1 tournaments highlight some of the kinds of IS builds that people bring. The 1v1 scenario makes IS mechs a little more popular than Clan mechs, but not to the point where there are no Clan mechs:



(The Assault bracket being only 80-95 tons left out the best 1v1 IS Assaults, which sorta skews that one. The Light bracket had a mix of Clan and IS Lights, and the Piranha won eventually but it got close.)

Edited by Krivvan, 26 March 2018 - 09:19 AM.

[Krivvan]

El Bandito, on 26 March 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Let's hope you are joking, cause the skill tree preemtive nerfs had cut down IS offensive ability quite a bit while buffing that of Clan meta mechs'. I don't see IS invading Clan homeworlds.

It also had a funny effect of increasing IS HP though. Again, realistically in FP the differences are small enough that it can wildly swing either way depending on which players are playing on which side. On the Clan side you have people complaining about how 12 ANH walls just represent too much HP and DPS to deal with while ERLL Battlemasters end up out-damaging Clan at range, whereas on the IS side you have complaints about Clan Heavy laser vomit alpha.

In Scouting mode you have random Clan players complaining incessantly about Bushwackers too, probably because everyone is using streak builds for the silly match score reason and when when comparing streak Bushwackers to streak Stormcrows/Huntsmen even just mathematically, the Bushwackers end up winning more often due to having more HP. It's not because Bushwackers are OP but because so many random Clan players are playing in a way that gives the Bushwacker an advantage.

[B0oN]

Buff CERPPCs ... I need to mount them on my bicycle ...

[Lykaon]

JohnnyWayne, on 26 March 2018 - 03:28 AM, said:

Yep, looking you up. Ignoring your "opinion".

Only fair I have already discredited yours since you clearly have binders on and can not comprehend that IF the clans get...

Half crit Endo steel

Half crit Ferro Fibrious

Ferro fibrious with more armor per ton

2/3 size DHS

2/3 size XL engines

XL engines that do not trigger destruction on side torso loss

free CASE on all location (effectively 3 tons of free saftey equipment)

Lighter and frequently more compact ballistics

Literally HALF! weight SRMs and LRMs oh that are also frequently smaller as well.

Access to customized hardpoints from omnimech omni pods (you do know MANY clan omnimechs have singular pods with hardpoint counts equal to or exceeding ENTIRE Inner Sphere mechs (Nova prime arms/stormcrow B arm/Gargoyle C arm/Executioner D arm etc)

Exclusive access to certain dominate metas like 78+ damage laser alphas or 8-12 MGs on a light. Inner Sphere can not even come close to that frequently only approaching half the output of a clan competitor.

I am not making this stuff up. This is the clan "quirks" package that applies across the board to clantech.

Clan apologists would burst a blood vessel if PGI put out an Inner Sphere mech that had a quirks list like...

Ferro fibrious cost half crits and grants 8% more armor per ton than standard ferro

Endo steel is half crits cost

ALL SRMs and LRMs equiped to this chassis have their weights reduced by half

Gauss rifles equiped to this chassis are 3 tons lighter and 1 crit smaller

ALL machine gun class weapons and flamers are half weight

XL engines equiped to this chassis are one third smaller and do not trigger mech destruction on side torso loss

ALL DHS equiped to this chassis are one third fewer crit slots

ECM and Active probes are half the ctis slots and two thirds the weight

All targeting computers are granted increased effects on this chassis

Reduce the weight and crit slots of all Ultra class auto cannons by 1 ton and 1 crit

Reduce the weight and crit costs of all LBX class auto cannons by 1 crit and 1 ton

And as an added bonus let's give it high mounted hardpoints that can be hot swapped to suit the roll desired by the player.


The clan fan boys would freak! pitch a fit and storm the forums yet....

This is the state of clan tech and when viewed as "quirks" something needs to give to balance it out.

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 26 March 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

I don't see IS invading Clan homeworlds.

You do see clans lost a bunch of planets occupied at about when we had Luthien event. Maybe clan players just stop giving a fuсk, maybe its because c-bill annihilator release and according meta shift, but in any case clans losing ground for several months now.

[Krivvan]

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 10:44 AM, said:

The clan fan boys would freak! pitch a fit and storm the forums yet....

This is the state of clan tech and when viewed as "quirks" something needs to give to balance it out.

And IS mechs when viewed as quirks include lower heat, higher DPS, higher armor and structure. Clan has exclusive access to high laser alphas, whereas IS has exclusive access to high DPS weapon combos. IS also has more max range on ballistics, tighter spreads, and equivalent overall ballistic damage which leads to a stronger pinpoint nature to the damage, even when the number itself is lower. Although maybe that doesn't apply if you just sorta face stare when you see Clan lasers hitting you.

You're going to be pretty surprised when it's mostly IS mechs that dominate Solaris. They tend to do better in 1v1 and 2v2, at least at the top. Try a 6xAC5 ANH versus any kind of Mad Cat Mk.2 in a 1v1 and you'd be shocked at how much the MCM2 is outclassed. There are a lot more garbage IS mechs though at the same time, which is unsurprising considering there are way more IS mechs.

Edited by Krivvan, 26 March 2018 - 11:32 AM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Krivvan, on 26 March 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

And IS mechs when viewed as quirks include lower heat, higher DPS, higher armor and structure.

You're going to be pretty surprised when it's mostly IS mechs that dominate Solaris. They tend to do better in 1v1 and 2v2, at least at the top. There are a lot more garbage IS mechs though at the same time, which is unsurprising considering there are way more IS mechs.

There are a lot of garbage mechs in general, power creep says hello.

Btw, im such a clan fanboi, I'm playing Steiner. Yeh.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 26 March 2018 - 11:30 AM.

[Lykaon]

Krivvan, on 26 March 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

And IS mechs when viewed as quirks include lower heat, higher DPS, higher armor and structure. Clan has exclusive access to high laser alphas, whereas IS has exclusive access to high DPS weapon combos. IS also has more max range on ballistics, tighter spreads, and equivalent overall ballistic damage which leads to a stronger pinpoint nature to the damage, even when the number itself is lower. Although maybe that doesn't apply if you just sorta face stare when you see Clan lasers hitting you.

You're going to be pretty surprised when it's mostly IS mechs that dominate Solaris. They tend to do better in 1v1 and 2v2, at least at the top. Try a 6xAC5 ANH versus any kind of Mad Cat Mk.2 in a 1v1 and you'd be shocked at how much the MCM2 is outclassed. There are a lot more garbage IS mechs though at the same time, which is unsurprising considering there are way more IS mechs.

actually those literally are quirks you are talking about because without quirks all mechs of a set weight have equal structure and armor caps.

Inner Sphere ballistics without quirks do NOT have longer ranges it's the QUIRKS not innate freebies like the list I provided.

Clan LB5X range = 720m
I.S. LB5X range = 700
Clan UAC5 range = 630m
I.S. UAC5 = 600m
Clan UAC20 =360m
I.S. UAC20 = 270m
Clan UAC10 = 540m
I.S. UAC10 = 450m

Even if I were to add a 20% range quirk to an Inner Sphere mech utilizing UAC10s I would have a + 90m range granting a max ideal range of ...you guessed it 540m or the flat clan UAC10 range. Except, I don't recall there being ANY I.S. mechs with an innate +20% ballistic range quirk.

So the clans have longer innate ranges on many ballistics and those weapons are lighter and use fewer crits and because of that, I.S. mechs get shorter burst on UACs and quirks to cooldown heat etc.

It is 100% factual that all 65 ton mechs have the same structure and armor caps. It's QUIRKS that when present grant the advantage to the Inner Sphere mech. Since there are no quirks that grant I.S. mechs the powers of innate clan tech there are quirks granted to compensate for those innate abilities.

So let's look at the heat dissapation. An I.S. mech may have a 10% heat efficency quirk while the clan mech counterpart simply has more available tonnage and space to load up on heatsinks because of the lighter and more compact clantech gear. In addition to just being capable of putting in more heatsinks the clan mech gets more health from simply loading in heatsinks. Each heatsink is now a potential target to take damage. a flat percentile based quirk does not crit pad a chassis but having the tonnage and space to just put in more stuff does.

And that is part of the reason for I.S. mechs getting structure quirks. The quirked hitpoints on structure is to equalize the Inner Sphere mechs simply not having anything to take the hits but the mech's structure.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 10:44 AM, said:

Only fair I have already discredited yours since you clearly have binders on and can not comprehend that IF the clans get...

-Half crit Endo steel
-Half crit Ferro Fibrious
-Ferro fibrious with more armor per ton
-2/3 size DHS
-2/3 size XL engines
-XL engines that do not trigger destruction on side torso loss
-free CASE on all location (effectively 3 tons of free saftey equipment)
-Lighter and frequently more compact ballistics
-Literally HALF! weight SRMs and LRMs oh that are also frequently smaller as well.
-Access to customized hardpoints from omnimech omni pods (you do know MANY clan omnimechs have singular pods with hardpoint counts equal to or exceeding ENTIRE Inner Sphere mechs (Nova prime arms/stormcrow B arm/Gargoyle C arm/Executioner D arm etc)
-Exclusive access to certain dominate metas like 78+ damage laser alphas or 8-12 MGs on a light. Inner Sphere can not even come close to that frequently only approaching half the output of a clan competitor.

I am not making this stuff up. This is the clan "quirks" package that applies across the board to clantech. Clan apologists would burst a blood vessel if PGI put out an Inner Sphere mech that had a quirks list like...

-Ferro fibrious cost half crits and grants 8% more armor per ton than standard ferro
-Endo steel is half crits cost
-ALL SRMs and LRMs equiped to this chassis have their weights reduced by half
-Gauss rifles equiped to this chassis are 3 tons lighter and 1 crit smaller
-ALL machine gun class weapons and flamers are half weight
-XL engines equiped to this chassis are one third smaller and do not trigger mech destruction on side torso loss
-ALL DHS equiped to this chassis are one third fewer crit slots
-ECM and Active probes are half the ctis slots and two thirds the weight
-All targeting computers are granted increased effects on this chassis
-Reduce the weight and crit slots of all Ultra class auto cannons by 1 ton and 1 crit
-Reduce the weight and crit costs of all LBX class auto cannons by 1 crit and 1 ton
-And as an added bonus let's give it high mounted hardpoints that can be hot swapped to suit the roll desired by the player.
-The clan fan boys would freak! pitch a fit and storm the forums yet....
-This is the state of clan tech and when viewed as "quirks" something needs to give to balance it out.

That god awful spacing is hideous, I've made it into a nice list for you.

Anyway, if they had a quirk list like that they'd also have a negative quirk list looking something like this:
-50% chance to be unable to have endo or ferro on your mech
-90% chance that endo or ferro placement blocks more optimal loadouts
-Ballistics can be torso twisted by enemies
-13% higher jam chance
-7% longer jam duration
-less access to PPFLD meta
-SRMs now only sandblast opponents
-LRMs easily shot down by AMS
-LRMs EVEN MORE spread
-SSRMs have 50% longer cooldowns
-inability to remove jumpjets
-inability to swap engine size
-low agility
-11% lower crit rate on MGs
-50% less health on internal components
-gauss rifles have 100% explosion chance while being lower health
-40% longer laser durations
-40% higher heat lasers (which turns out is a higher percentage than the 33% smaller heatsinks compared to IS)
-12.5% longer cooldowns on medium lasers
-50% longer cooldowns than equivalent IS alpha
-Ballistics have lower DPS than IS counterparts due to cooldowns only starting once burst is finished
-Skill tree offers less gains in the heat gen and cooldown section
-no armor quirks to superboost with skill tree's help

And to top it all off the IS guys would cry over how it has no durability quirks and likely terrible hitboxes.



Seriously though, Clan has no PPFLD options aside from the gauss, ERPPC, and (u)AC2 and gauss has a charge up time, ERPPCs have splash damage so they're not even truly pinpoint, and AC2s only do 2 damage per shot. Meanwhile for IS you have gauss, Hgauss, Lgauss, PPC, ERPPC, SNPPC, HPPC, LPPC, AC20, AC10, AC5, AC2, UAC5, and UAC2. Not only this but IS barely even needs PPFLD damage because they already have lasers that are at 0.6 seconds so that they're incredibly easy to keep them on a single component or get a full burn on someone without them reacting fast enough in the first place.

[Wingbreaker]

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

actually those literally are quirks you are talking about because without quirks all mechs of a set weight have equal structure and armor caps.

Inner Sphere ballistics without quirks do NOT have longer ranges it's the QUIRKS not innate freebies like the list I provided.

That would be incorrect, IS lbx weapons retained 3x max and the HGR has a bizzare 4.09x range max.

Edited by Wingbreaker, 26 March 2018 - 12:44 PM.