74 replies to this topic

[Dogstar]

Vellron2005, on 27 March 2018 - 12:00 AM, said:

Sadly, while I agree with this, it would also mean dropping any semblance of immersion, and this game being a simulator of mech combat, and not an arcade unreal-tournament like game.. :/

I agree with the sentiment that this game would be much better if the immersion factor was turned up a couple of notches - there's many simple things PGI could do to stop it being such an obvious 'game' - like not using the word 'game' or 'match' in the loading screen

However given that immersion is ignored by PGI maybe we could try endless respawn.

[WarHippy]

Manored, on 26 March 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

As it says on the tin. Right now it feels like there's almost no difference between the various game modes, because when enemies don't re-spawn, why worry about the objectives if you can just kill the enemy team, and then go do that?

What makes various game modes apart from "kill them all" work in other games is the fact that death isn't permanent, so the contribution to team victory you get from killing someone is limited.

In this game that crucial element is missing, but the game modes are designed largely in the same way... which ultimately doesn't work that well.

As such, I propose adding re-spawn to most game modes. The idea being that after a player dies, they can re-spawn somewhere between 30 seconds to 2 minutes later, being dropped in via dropship.

I'm aware that there are some game modes with re-spawn on faction play, but I haven't played that so I can't comment on that.

However, maybe the "drop pod" system there could also be used here. Could serve as a means of limiting the number of re-spawns per player, which should keep players from getting too suicidal.

No thank you. I have no interest in adding more respawn to the game.

[Khobai]

adding respawns to the game wont fix it

you need both respawns and an engaging gamemode with actual strategic objectives

[VitriolicViolet]

respawns would be terrible, i personally would abandon the game almost immediately. It adds nothing to the game, no one has yet brought up a single advantage to respawn, also CW already has it, why add it to the mode that doesnt.
I think it would cause player skill and tacttics to devolve even further into ramboing and crappy builds, much less risk in YOLO builds etc.
Id rather add things which encourage decent gameplay not things that result in things getting worse.

If anything add yet another mode that has respawns so i can stay away from it, CW was ok until it got screwed, Scouting is terrible and i predict Solaris will end up worse than CW (unless it gets proper 12 or 24 player FFA), QP is all i really play.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Just have a voting option for 2 drop decks, just like all the other **** we vote on.

[Manored]

Vellron2005, on 27 March 2018 - 12:00 AM, said:

Sadly, while I agree with this, it would also mean dropping any semblance of immersion, and this game being a simulator of mech combat, and not an arcade unreal-tournament like game.. :/

Eh, while I respect the desire to have a realistic mech combat simulation, the entire point of having multiple game modes is being able to create different experiences for different people. Warthunder has 3 different tiers of realism and, as far as I can tell, that works in catering for different tastes.

Plus I personally do not feel this game is at all realistic. The way how armor and damage works is completely bonkers compared to the closest real world equivalent, which would be tank combat. The distances of engagement are also way off. Nothing wrong with any of that, I just find it odd that people keep using the "realism" argument to justify no re-spawns, considering we are talking about a game of giant robots blasting each other with lasers.

Villainy, on 27 March 2018 - 01:18 AM, said:

Look, I'm not talking down to you, but you haven't played long enough to know just how awful this idea is. I am thoroughly impressed by your ability to weed out and pinpoint PGIs flaws in the four days you have had an account, but dude

You don't understand.

I'm older than that. Not sure why its saying 4 days. Maybe because I first posted on the forums recently or because I started playing again after a long time recently. Last time I played, more than a year ago, there was only quickplay with the conquest and assault modes. Part of the reason I returned was due to hearing there were new modes, but I was disappointed to find they add very little to the game.

Variant1, on 26 March 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

For incursion too many people seem to think they should keep fighting when they are low on mechs instead of using the base(me personaly i always use the base when the odds are against me).

The problem with that is that incursion is decided by base damage at the end, which gives the enemy no incentive to attack your base unless you have managed to pop some damage into theirs. If no bases took any hits, they can just wait for the end and... win by having more mechs left, I guess? You're very much relying on them making a bad move when you retreat into your base and hope they will follow you into a battle that is disadvantageous for them.

Villainy, on 27 March 2018 - 02:49 AM, said:

Every "pro" you list takes away from what is essential and unique to Mechwarrior.
Go play League or Overwatch or Heroes of the Storm or Dota or Paladins or Planetside or ANY of the other games that feature a clash of respawning forces clashing over an objective.

The "One Life to Live," part of Mechwarrior is quintessential to it.
The way EVERY choice matters or you may be out this time around MATTERS.

Honestly what is unique to Mechwarrior is the mechs. I can't think of a single other multiplayer game with the same weighty, detailed approach to mech combat. While I indeed would never expect players to have dozens of lives per match in a game like this, I see absolutely no reason why having a single life is essential. For bleeb's sake, matches are 15 minutes long. I dunno about other people, but for me this "emotional weight" of having a single life does not exist in matches that are only 15 minutes long.

I should also note, since people seem to be getting the wrong idea, that I'm not saying every mode should have re-spawns or that players should lose the ability to play without re-spawns.

[Anjian]

Villainy, on 27 March 2018 - 02:49 AM, said:

Every "pro" you list takes away from what is essential and unique to Mechwarrior.
Go play League or Overwatch or Heroes of the Storm or Dota or Paladins or Planetside or ANY of the other games that feature a clash of respawning forces clashing over an objective.

The "One Life to Live," part of Mechwarrior is quintessential to it.
The way EVERY choice matters or you may be out this time around MATTERS.

Not really. MW4 had multiplayer that had respawns. And not just limited respawns. Infinite respawns. You can even set a game condition where you turn off all heat effects.

Edited by Anjian, 27 March 2018 - 08:17 PM.

[xRatas]

Anjian, on 27 March 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Not really. MW4 had multiplayer that had respawns. And not just limited respawns. Infinite respawns. You can even set a game condition where you turn off all heat effects.

Yes it did, it also had option to not turn on respawning and all the other stupid things. Those were the matches that were actually good and interesting. And I'd say were the reason MW4 multiplayer survived roughly a decade.

[LordNothing]

im all for respawns but for entirely different reasons.

there is too much waiting in this game. you wait a couple minutes for a drop, then you load for a couple minutes, then you spend another two minutes waiting for players to connect. you play for 5 minutes die and then you either wait for the match to end or drop another mech. thus the wait to play ratio is < 1:1. respawns like those in fp get the wait ratio to about 1:3. this is a vast improvement over qp. infinite respawn could get that better.

[Anjian]

Anjian, on 27 March 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Not really. MW4 had multiplayer that had respawns. And not just limited respawns. Infinite respawns. You can even set a game condition where you turn off all heat effects.

Yes I quite so remember. Though when I was playing it, a lot of matches had respawns on and heat off and that was the most popular matches available.

[LordNothing]

Anjian, on 28 March 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

Yes I quite so remember. Though when I was playing it, a lot of matches had respawns on and heat off and that was the most popular matches available.

give people an easy button and they will use it.

[Anjian]

LordNothing, on 28 March 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

give people an easy button and they will use it.

There is nothing wrong with giving people what they want.

In the end its about having fun, and this game seems to have lost sight and vision of what makes a game fun.

LordNothing, on 27 March 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

im all for respawns but for entirely different reasons.

there is too much waiting in this game. you wait a couple minutes for a drop, then you load for a couple minutes, then you spend another two minutes waiting for players to connect. you play for 5 minutes die and then you either wait for the match to end or drop another mech. thus the wait to play ratio is < 1:1. respawns like those in fp get the wait ratio to about 1:3. this is a vast improvement over qp. infinite respawn could get that better.

Wait times vs. involvement or game engagement times, is one of the primary, if not the most important reason why most modern games use respawns.

Single spawn games need huge player queues (WoT has 16 vs 16 teams) in order to sustain a longer game involvement. To have huge player queues, you need to bring in players and that means expensive marketing which again, see World of Tanks. Small indie games go with 5 v 5 or 6 v 6, to keep games running longer, they do respawns.

Edited by Anjian, 28 March 2018 - 01:44 AM.

[LordNothing]

Anjian, on 28 March 2018 - 01:43 AM, said:

There is nothing wrong with giving people what they want.

In the end its about having fun, and this game seems to have lost sight and vision of what makes a game fun.




Wait times vs. involvement or game engagement times, is one of the primary, if not the most important reason why most modern games use respawns.

Single spawn games need huge player queues (WoT has 16 vs 16 teams) in order to sustain a longer game involvement. To have huge player queues, you need to bring in players and that means expensive marketing which again, see World of Tanks. Small indie games go with 5 v 5 or 6 v 6, to keep games running longer, they do respawns.

i think id prefer the old skool run your own server (or host if centralized server is used, like old skool battlenet) approach, vs matchmaking services. back in the day it wasnt hard to find a server that caters to your play style or skill level. in the context of mwo that would be more robust custom games with a lobby browser. set the map, mode, time of day, allowed equipment list, match length, respawn count, tier restrictions (the would need to be not exp bar for that to mean anything though). then you just hop in any server that appeals to you.

[Anjian]

LordNothing, on 28 March 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

i think id prefer the old skool run your own server (or host if centralized server is used, like old skool battlenet) approach, vs matchmaking services. back in the day it wasnt hard to find a server that caters to your play style or skill level. in the context of mwo that would be more robust custom games with a lobby browser. set the map, mode, time of day, allowed equipment list, match length, respawn count, tier restrictions (the would need to be not exp bar for that to mean anything though). then you just hop in any server that appeals to you.

I don't know. Hawken was one of the last games I have seen with old school style distributed servers, where you go through a list of matches, see how many players are on it, if its available or not, and join them. See where the game ended.

[TWIAFU]

Khobai, on 27 March 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

adding respawns to the game wont fix it

you need both respawns and an engaging gamemode with actual strategic objectives

So we can listen to people complain that you are doing objectives instead of standing still playing peek a boo?

Not like we have a metric ton of evidence to show how that will play out.

Or are Objective Rushes OK in QP like rolfstomps are? So long as your enemy does not teamwork, everything is OK.

Objective Rushing, seal clubbing, farming, and stomps of 12-1.

[Kroete]

Nema Nabojiv, on 27 March 2018 - 02:08 AM, said:

Dont quite understand, what do you mean?

This going to be usual FP-skirmish-like tug of war, when one team pushing closer to enemy base, loses hp and mechs in the process and eventually the team closer to their spawn point pushing back because they reinforcements arrive sooner. And then it repeats. Pure mech shooting, what's not to like.

You will have suicide rocketlaucher only mechs,
you will have as much alpha as possible with nearly no armor,
you will have onehitkill mechs that explode after a kill.
Because they will respawn in the next moment.

No need to use armor, no need for heatsinks, no need for more then a ton of ammo,
because you respawn and can do the same again and again and again ...
Unlimited respawns will not work with that much costumization.

In most unlimited respawn games you can choose between 5 different guns and a skin,
but you cant take a suicide bomb.

Edited by Kroete, 28 March 2018 - 03:04 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Kroete, on 28 March 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

You will have suicide rocketlaucher only mechs,
you will have as much alpha as possible with nearly no armor,
you will have onehitkill mechs that explode after a kill.
Because they will respawn in the next moment.

The most you can get with suicide mech is 1:1 kd if you are lucky. That's not as effective as doing more damage while staying alive. And then you respawn and have to walk back from the base to the frontline.

I honestly cant recall someone used full-dakka no-armor mechs on MW4 respawn servers, and there were no ghostheat to limit any number of guns.

[Clownwarlord]

Issue with re-spawn is spawn camping, and so no.

[Manored]

Clownwarlord, on 28 March 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

Issue with re-spawn is spawn camping, and so no.

This is always something that can be mitigated. We already have the initial spawn of a team landing down in various places, re-spawns could retain these options and land mechs in the position furthest away from any know enemies.

Secondly, if the enemy team has pushed as far as all your team's spawn points, chances are you already lost and the game should be ending or near ending.

Kroete, on 28 March 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

You will have suicide rocketlaucher only mechs,
you will have as much alpha as possible with nearly no armor,
you will have onehitkill mechs that explode after a kill.
Because they will respawn in the next moment.

No need to use armor, no need for heatsinks, no need for more then a ton of ammo,
because you respawn and can do the same again and again and again ...
Unlimited respawns will not work with that much costumization.

In most unlimited respawn games you can choose between 5 different guns and a skin,
but you cant take a suicide bomb.

This makes no sense. If these robots you describe were effective, why would people not be using them now? If enemies don't re-spawn every enemy you take down with extreme aggro is gone for good. It actually makes more, not less, sense to go for extreme aggro with no re-spawns, because you have the surprise factor and you only need it once. On a long match with multiple lives, enemies would learn to recognize you and quickly focus down your glass cannon *** after a while.

Also, there being re-spawns wouldn't have to mean lives having no value. Lives could be worth points for the enemy team to encourage players to not suicide rush the other side repeatedly.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Manored, on 28 March 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

Secondly, if the enemy team has pushed as far as all your team's spawn points, chances are you already lost and the game should be ending or near ending.

That is what happens with limited and delayed spawns in FP, exactly because you can retain numbers advantage on enemy spawn for a long time. Like in Hellbore spawn camp.

If there were no spawn delays and no 4 mech limit, everyone would have just ejected or died of natural causes and pushed the attackers out of the base.