80 replies to this topic

[WhineyThePoo]

I use them on mechs with updated visuals, simply because they look better.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Bombast, on 27 March 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Too bad.

https://mwo.smurfy-n...2b74e0a5ab18b61

50.4kph.

And then people complain the team nascared and they were left behind. I mean, if you want to go 50 just take annihilator and get bonus armor at least.

[LordNothing]

the lb5 has always been garbage, and even the ac5 is slipping out of my favor. usually prefer the uac5 or rac5 instead.

the lb2 is somewhat workable as a crit seeker or low heat alternative to the uac2. the ac2 still has the boating niche cornered. 2 class is pretty useful across both tech bases and all gun types. even the much maligned rac2 has the ranged dps niche well covered in cases where you just have a couple hardpoints to work with.

the lb10 is also pretty workable, but i still prefer the ac10 over it (even on the clan side), unless theres quirks. the uac10s are too hot to use in anything but single gun configurations, so again im often using the ac10 instead (even on the clan side).

the lb20 class is pretty much in in the same boat as the lb10. its a fun little sand blaster to pepper targets with but with the mandatory std engine torso mounted is configuration breaks it a little. the clan version is a little better. of course the is have the better uac20 imho, if you want a weapon that can ghost heat itself into uselessness (unless you can master the slow double tap). the ac20 and cac20 are what i prefer in this class though.

[ShiverMeRivets]

While we're are on the subject of small LBXs, why does the LBX2 take 4 critical slots, while the AC2 take only 1?
Is it so much better that it needs some penalty? Crit seeking is good, but AC2 get a (smaller) bonus too.

[Spare Parts Bin]

ShiverMeRivets, on 28 March 2018 - 04:48 AM, said:

While we're are on the subject of small LBXs, why does the LBX2 take 4 critical slots, while the AC2 take only 1?
Is it so much better that it needs some penalty? Crit seeking is good, but AC2 get a (smaller) bonus too.

I couldn't figure that myself. Really doesn't make sense.

[Verilligo]

Spare Parts Bin, on 28 March 2018 - 05:29 AM, said:

I couldn't figure that myself. Really doesn't make sense.

Because that's the size that it is in tabletop. There are benefits to using an LBX2 in TT that have not made the translation to MWO, primarily multiple ammo types. But because of PGI's slavish devotion to TT stats with regards to crit slot size and weight, the small caliber IS LBXs are complete and total garbage and will likely never get better. In time you'll come to accept such things as simply being How It Is.

[Brain Cancer]

ShiverMeRivets, on 28 March 2018 - 04:48 AM, said:

While we're are on the subject of small LBXs, why does the LBX2 take 4 critical slots, while the AC2 take only 1?
Is it so much better that it needs some penalty? Crit seeking is good, but AC2 get a (smaller) bonus too.

3 crits if a Clan version, BTW. Originally? Because it was a sandblaster that benefitted significantly from cluster ammo while losing nothing in terms of punching holes, since AC/2's don't do that anyway. The tremendous range didn't hurt matters much, either. Since it didn't lose in weight, it gained a few crit spaces instead.

[Antares102]

Zergling, on 27 March 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

Nobody that has any clue about what they are doing will use them outside of messing around.

Serious question: Would you/anybody use them if they had a cooldown of 1.4 sec?
Would result in about 3.5 DPS with 1 heat per shot.
That would be my limit to use it I guess. Never used it up to now, not even to mess around.

[Dee Eight]

I use them on certain builds but I do like shotguns. I prefer the 2s and 10s more though. But you can always see for yourself if you've used them how effective they've been for yourself by checking your weapon stats on your profile.

For example...
LB 10-X AC 535 34,384 18,577 54.03% 2 days 02:48:27 130,950

So 130,950 damage scored for 34,384 shots averages out to 3.8 damage per total # of shots and 7.04 damage per shot that hit but with a 6% higher hit rate.

Compared to...
AC/10 141 4,340 2,096 48.29% 14:42:04 20,708

4.77 damage per total # of shots and 9.87 damage per shot that hits (I would assume the .13 is missing from damage transfer reductions on blow off components)
AC/2 385 114,315 47,551 41.60% 1 day 17:47:11 93,209 AC/5 196 27,090 10,580 39.06% 20:56:49 51,640

AC/2 is 0.81 per total and 1.96 per hit while AC/5 is 1.89 per total and 4.88 per hit.

vs
LB 2-X AC 104 42,756 21,738 50.84% 11:13:28 41,418 LB 5-X AC 109 19,738 10,101 51.18% 10:20:21 43,726

LB-2 is 0.96 per total and 1.90 per hit while LB-5 is 2.21 and 4.32 respectively.

Now myself, I'm willing to give up a bit of damage per hit, to hit more often, and at greater distances than with standard autocannons. There are times that all it takes is 1 point of damage to the correct spot to achieve the killing blow and its a lot easier to experience those times with a weapon that spreads the shot damage over a wider area.

Edited by Dee Eight, 28 March 2018 - 08:58 AM.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Dee Eight, on 28 March 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

I use them on certain builds but I do like shotguns. I prefer the 2s and 10s more though. But you can always see for yourself if you've used them how effective they've been for yourself by checking your weapon stats on your profile.

For example...
LB 10-X AC 535 34,384 18,577 54.03% 2 days 02:48:27 130,950

So 130,950 damage scored for 34,384 shots averages out to 3.8 damage per total # of shots and 7.04 damage per shot that hit but with a 6% higher hit rate.

Compared to...
AC/10 141 4,340 2,096 48.29% 14:42:04 20,708

4.77 damage per total # of shots and 9.87 damage per shot that hits (I would assume the .13 is missing from damage transfer reductions on blow off components)
AC/2 385 114,315 47,551 41.60% 1 day 17:47:11 93,209 AC/5 196 27,090 10,580 39.06% 20:56:49 51,640

AC/2 is 0.81 per total and 1.96 per hit while AC/5 is 1.89 per total and 4.88 per hit.

vs
LB 2-X AC 104 42,756 21,738 50.84% 11:13:28 41,418 LB 5-X AC 109 19,738 10,101 51.18% 10:20:21 43,726

LB-2 is 0.96 per total and 1.90 per hit while LB-5 is 2.21 and 4.32 respectively.

Now myself, I'm willing to give up a bit of damage per hit, to hit more often, and at greater distances than with standard autocannons. There are times that all it takes is 1 point of damage to the correct spot to achieve the killing blow and its a lot easier to experience those times with a weapon that spreads the shot damage over a wider area.

I like using 2LBX-2s+1LBX-10 together, just like one ERLL with 2-3 ERMLs.

[Zergling]

Antares102, on 28 March 2018 - 07:55 AM, said:

Serious question: Would you/anybody use them if they had a cooldown of 1.4 sec?
Would result in about 3.5 DPS with 1 heat per shot.
That would be my limit to use it I guess. Never used it up to now, not even to mess around.

Potentially; I'd at least give them a try out for a few battles to see how effective such a buff makes them.

[jss78]

ShiverMeRivets, on 28 March 2018 - 04:48 AM, said:

While we're are on the subject of small LBXs, why does the LBX2 take 4 critical slots, while the AC2 take only 1?
Is it so much better that it needs some penalty? Crit seeking is good, but AC2 get a (smaller) bonus too.

I always kinda wondered about this from the other angle -- why is a 6-ton AC/2 only one slot in tabletop. It's a bit of an outlier, I don't think there's any other piece of equipment as heavy or heavier that's only 1 slot.

I guess they just didn't think too much about it back we only had level 1 tech. You were never going to be limited by crit slots without Endo/Ferro/DHS.

I agree it sucks for LB-2X's though in terms of balance.

Edited by jss78, 28 March 2018 - 09:54 AM.

[Lykaon]

ShiverMeRivets, on 28 March 2018 - 04:48 AM, said:

While we're are on the subject of small LBXs, why does the LBX2 take 4 critical slots, while the AC2 take only 1?
Is it so much better that it needs some penalty? Crit seeking is good, but AC2 get a (smaller) bonus too.

Because the Lb2X needs to be able to float on water?


As for LB5x's I have a coupleof mechs I use them on.

A Night Gyr with 4 of them and a pair of ER mediums. The combat style I use is second line or "sidekick" fire support (sidekicking is escorting a more juicy target and providing covering or suplimental weapon fire for them). The build has amazing endurance and as long as you are not the best target to shoot at you do not have much trouble with meeting the face time requirements to shoot constantly.

My Heavy metal Highlander uses a paired AC5 and LB5X in one arm a dual Snub PPC in the other arm and an MRM 10 in the torso. Utilizing the 25 damage Pinpoint opens up armor for the MRMs and LBx crits. this works Ok.

[Dee Eight]

jss78, on 28 March 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

I always kinda wondered about this from the other angle -- why is a 6-ton AC/2 only one slot in tabletop. It's a bit of an outlier, I don't think there's any other piece of equipment as heavy or heavier that's only 1 slot.

I guess they just didn't think too much about it back we only had level 1 tech. You were never going to be limited by crit slots without Endo/Ferro/DHS.

I agree it sucks for LB-2X's though in terms of balance.

Its because...when FASA created the stats for the star league lostech... and did the 2750 TRO a year ahead of the release of the clans and the 3050 TRO, they basically made the LB-10X TOOO good. Here they gave an an autocannon, with ammo switching, that was lighter, more compact, shot further and using less heat than a standard AC/10. Then they brought in the clans and the clan LB-10 was lighter and more compact still (but same range/heat as the star league era version).

The problem was when they also introduced clan LB-2s, 5s and 20s which were again all better than standard inner sphere AC/2s, 5s and 20s in terms of range, and weight... they had to make them no better in terms of space because again, they'd made the LB-10 just too good. And then of course when the IS were to develop those sizes of LBs, well...they couldn't be better than the clan ones.

There's also a notation in the first printings of the 3050 TRO which says the clan still had standard versions of the weapons the inner sphere used, but they occupied one less critical space (never less than 1) than their IS cousins. Thus a C-AC/5 is 3 crits, but a C-AC/2 should be 1 (and not the 3 it is in this game) as well. A C-PPC would be 2 spaces.

[Brain Cancer]

It's notable that the reason the first printing of the 3050 TRO had em and other stuff didn't is because shortly afterwards, they chucked any pretense of Clantech mirroring the IS tech tree and much like Gauss originally having more shots/ton (again, TRO 2750 in this case), it was eliminated and errata'd. In part, it was a vestigial leftover from when the original "Clantech" was going to be straight up Star League-era tech, but didn't get edited out before they went full derp, made Clan stuff broken as all get out, and put their super-robots in the TRO 3050 release.

Canonically, there never was a Clantech standard AC of any kind in production until 3073. There are rules for the interim weapons in many cases between the Exodus army leaving and the "modern" Clan gear though. For example, there's the Improved PPC, which is the Clan standard 2-crit/6-ton weapon, but it's stats are otherwise that of a IS standard PPC. And then the Enhanced ER PPC, which had IS weight and heat for an ERPPC, but dealt about 20% more damage - both of which eventually led to the modern CERPPC.

Clanners do eventually turn to an updated standard autocannon, but as a Protomech main gun that also finds it's later use on some larger machines and vehicles. Canonically, these come from previously abandoned prototype work with autocannons that was shelved in favor of the improved LB and Ultra AC's we commonly know today.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Brain Cancer, on 28 March 2018 - 01:08 PM, said:

It's notable that the reason the first printing of the 3050 TRO had em and other stuff didn't is because shortly afterwards, they chucked any pretense of Clantech mirroring the IS tech tree and much like Gauss originally having more shots/ton (again, TRO 2750 in this case), it was eliminated and errata'd. In part, it was a vestigial leftover from when the original "Clantech" was going to be straight up Star League-era tech, but didn't get edited out before they went full derp, made Clan stuff broken as all get out, and put their super-robots in the TRO 3050 release.

Canonically, there never was a Clantech standard AC of any kind in production until 3073. There are rules for the interim weapons in many cases between the Exodus army leaving and the "modern" Clan gear though. For example, there's the Improved PPC, which is the Clan standard 2-crit/6-ton weapon, but it's stats are otherwise that of a IS standard PPC. And then the Enhanced ER PPC, which had IS weight and heat for an ERPPC, but dealt about 20% more damage - both of which eventually led to the modern CERPPC.

Clanners do eventually turn to an updated standard autocannon, but as a Protomech main gun that also finds it's later use on some larger machines and vehicles. Canonically, these come from previously abandoned prototype work with autocannons that was shelved in favor of the improved LB and Ultra AC's we commonly know today.

I quit playing Battletech around the time the Clans came out. Loved the BT novels but Clan tech was so much better. I did not want to play against it.

[LordNothing]

lb2 kind of works on my black widow build. not sure if thats the weapon or the mech, probibly the mech. but i have 3 of them with and mrm30 and 2 ermls. if forced into ranged trading i will use the lb2s. at skirmisher range il use the mrm and lasers to soften up targets, when something opens il start peppering it with the lb2 for the coup de grace. when brawling, i just fire everything. the lb2s are kind of heat neutral when used alone so they come in handy in the latter stages of a brawl when heat is high and armor is low. thats the trick to mixed builds, have a tool for every job and use the right one as deemed by the situation. and that versatility is why this is in my fp deck. tried it with ac2s and its just not the same for some reason.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 March 2018 - 05:42 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I use them occasionally including using them on my Scorch every so often and they do fairly well depending on what other weapons your supporting them with. They fire very fast and the spread is kind of small which will let you reliably do near pin point damage at closer ranges. Where they fail is at longer ranges or if your using them as your primary source of damage.

[Cabusha]

Athom83, on 27 March 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

Instead of ammo switching, I made 2 suggestions that would add a lot more flavor.

1) Airburst. The rounds stays a single slug the entire flight to a target, but when it gets within a certain distance the round bursts into the shotgun effect we all know.

2) Preset airburst. Like above, the round flies along then burst into the shotgun effect. However what's different is that it stays the single slug the entire duration of its optimal range (including when hitting a target) and only then airbursts into a shotgun effect when it passes that range.

Anything that requires they develop a new weapon mechanic isn't going to happen. Everything since closed beta has been some type of reskin.

[Koniving]

I use them on a single Crab, the hero Crab.

I was able to pull off a Crab versus King Crab against quad AC/5s through cunning and ambush.

However, they are really lacking in a number of departments to really be viable.

A shame they don't go by the original description of LBX, of firing a "Flak-like projectile" that "fragments" after leaving the barrel (presumably, like a flak projectile, after a timed fuse or proximity fuse triggers it to do so). People take the "shotgun" aspect a little too literally. Did it ever occur to anyone else that the LBX's superior accurate range despite "being a shotgun" was a little suspicious? Especially since in the original LBX description in TRO 2750, it is due to an on board targeting system attached to the gun?

What targeting system makes a shotgun more accurate? ....Nothing could.
But what targeting and control system makes a flak weapon system more accurate?
There was a video I had seen on a modern flak projectile and gun that has multiple settings, including "Timed fuse with proximity priority, proximity detonation" and variations of impact priority. With demonstrations of each and it had LBX all over it, as the shell fragments under whichever setting conditions it is given prior to firing and literally "shotguns" the target to death.

Edited by Koniving, 29 March 2018 - 08:14 AM.