61 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

The6thMessenger, on 05 April 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

Exactly, no canyon wall, jenner loses 60% of the time.

I mean, you were looking for a Light that is on the same level as the Piranha in a fight, and that's the Mist Lynx.

[The6thMessenger]

Krivvan, on 05 April 2018 - 07:26 PM, said:

I mean, you were looking for a Light that is on the same level as the Piranha in a fight, and that's the Mist Lynx.

What makes you think that the two are on the same level? Just because they are MG boats?

Mist Lynx is slower, larger, worse for ambushes. Get PIR-3 with SPL arms, then the piranha could dance with other lights.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 05 April 2018 - 07:35 PM, said:

What makes you think that the two are on the same level? Just because they are MG boats?

I'm assuming his judgement is because of the higher durability and more backup lasers for armor-stripping.

Edited by FupDup, 05 April 2018 - 07:38 PM.

[Krivvan]

The6thMessenger, on 05 April 2018 - 07:35 PM, said:

What makes you think that the two are on the same level? Just because they are MG boats?

Mist Lynx is slower, larger, worse for ambushes. Get PIR-3 with SPL arms, then the piranha could dance with other lights.

Very, very, very, very, very extensive 1v1 testing over the course of months and controlling for different players. It was my second choice for MWA but I went with the PIR in the end. The only series I was close to losing was against a Mist Lynx, and it was a 0.5 second difference.

The Mist Lynx has JJs and better HP. This is the trade for 4 MG less DPS but with 2 more lasers.

[Edit: Deleted a claim about agility that was wrong, slightly misread my mech agility chart.]

Edited by Krivvan, 05 April 2018 - 07:45 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Krivvan, on 05 April 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

Very, very, very, very, very extensive 1v1 testing. It was my second choice for MWA but I went with the PIR in the end. The only series I was close to losing was against a Mist Lynx, and it was a 0.5 second difference.

And that wouldn't make them 50/50. And there's also other things to consider, such as how would the lights par against heavier enemies -- cause i know Piranhas par better.

Krivvan, on 05 April 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

The Mist Lynx has JJs, better HP, and better in every way agility (yes this is true look up the numbers). Agility being equally as important as speed and size for playing like a true Light. This is the trade for 4 MG less DPS but with 2 more lasers.

But the thing is that, Piranha is smaller, faster, could get behind enemies, deal damage and then get out faster and a lot easier. Smaller means harder to hit, more MG means it crits rears a lot faster.

As important as Agility are, Piranha has so much output for it's little package, and it serves it well for that ambush leg-humper light. Mist Lynx, not so much.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 April 2018 - 07:47 PM.

[Krivvan]

The6thMessenger, on 05 April 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

And that wouldn't make them 50/50. And there's also other things to consider, such as how would the lights par against heavier enemies -- cause i know Piranhas par better.

As important as Agility are, Piranha has so much output for it's little package, and it serves it well for that ambush leg-humper light. Mist Lynx, not so much.

I'm actually wrong about the agility, so my bad on that part. That all said, JJs do count for a bunch, and the Mist Lynx actually fares only slightly worse against heavier mechs compared to the Piranha, in exchange for faring slightly better against other Lights and Mediums.

In any case, the Piranha aren't an old Cheetah level dominating Light, and I think that's clear based on how few Piranhas you actually see in pub queue in comparison.

Also I'm biased in that the difference in size for a Light isn't that huge a deal to me. I find the Piranha as easy to hit as a Jenner, and feel about as safe in both since I never play with the hope that an enemy is going to miss me simply because I'm small.

Edited by Krivvan, 05 April 2018 - 07:49 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Krivvan, on 05 April 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

I'm actually wrong about the agility, so my bad on that part.

Krivvan, on 05 April 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

That all said, JJs do count for a bunch, and the Mist Lynx actually fares only slightly worse against heavier mechs compared to the Piranha, in exchange for faring slightly better against other Lights and Mediums.

JJ's not that worth something, not when so much is needlessly crammed inside it. Mist Lynx may be armored, but it's far slower, with far larger hitbox. Something that makes it far more of a target, and with majority of weapons in the arms -- arms which makes it even Larger with MG boating -- don't even.

Krivvan, on 05 April 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

In any case, the Piranha aren't an old Cheetah level dominating Light, and I think that's clear based on how few Piranhas you actually see in pub queue in comparison.

But it's not really whether it's the old Cheetah-Level, it's about it being a completely powerful light. Of course it has so much disadvantages, like Jump-jets, that it's flimsy. It doesn't have ECM to help cover it's fragility. But when it's all said and done, Piranha has a staggering amount off firepower compared to a lot of other lights for it's weight and speed, and that is unnerving.

Krivvan, on 05 April 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

Also I'm biased in that the difference in size for a Light isn't that huge a deal to me. I find the Piranha as easy to hit as a Jenner, and feel about as safe in both since I never play with the hope that an enemy is going to miss me simply because I'm small.

But the thing is that, it's not about you. It's about the mech as a whole, and that means it's battered with the average pilots within the playerbase.

[MechaBattler]

Doesn't seem like good balance if only one other light can match it and it's the other mech that uses the same boating mechanic. So many lights are already marginalized as it is. Why is it okay for the Piranha to wreck 90% of all other lights simply because it can run a lot of MGs?

[WrathOfDeadguy]

The trouble with nerfing the Piranha is that most of the nerfs that could be applied to it directly screw its sole reason for existing: mass boating ultralight weaponry. If you hit its RoF or add limits to the number of MGs that can fire at once, you just shift preference back to the MLX or ACH and kill the fish dead, which solves nothing. Just about the only two things you could do without completely invalidating the 'mech are an agility nerf or a MG spread nerf... both of which will have a massive impact on low-level play and little if any at all on high-level play (since skilled players already know how to compensate for those factors).

The better way is to rework crits.

Brain Cancer, on 05 April 2018 - 06:54 PM, said:

I'll just describe the worst part in three words: Through armor critical.

Let's just sum it up by saying the game would have died long ago if PGI stuck rigidly to TT rules. Through-armor crits alone would have killed it- and rightly so. Those mechanics work when they're a rare offshoot of an already uncommon roll, compounded by lack of universal weapon convergence or precision aiming mechanics- they would be disastrous in a twitch shooter. If you could through-armor with anything, then ammo weapons in general would be as dead as disco, because everybody and their dog would have ruined the game with whichever weapon had the highest %TAC with the lowest crit explosion risk.

RNG isn't inherently bad in a twitch game; a little surprise every now and then is healthy for interesting gameplay. Without those surprises, you get stagnation and players lose interest. However, MG crits aren't a surprise. They're expected. Normal. Bland. Eyeroll-inducing, even. It's more of a surprise when you don't lose every single bit of hardware in your open components. That should change. Crits shouldn't be a "FFS not again!"- they should be an "OMG no way!"

The solution is to move even further away from TT crit rules, so that it's a rare and memorable event again rather than something that happens every single kill with a given weapon type.

*edit- I'd say the same of UAC jam chance, by the way. It's not inherently bad to have the mechanic, but it shouldn't be something that players expect to happen as a natural consequence of simply using the weapon. Any event that's RNG-dependent should be rare enough that players get complacent between occurrences and 'forget' to take steps to minimize their exposure to it.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 05 April 2018 - 09:00 PM.

[C H E E K I E Z]

Can we all just take a moment to remember when the spider with 4 MG's and a Large laser, or the firestarter, both only having 4 MG's was what we were all afraid of.

[Nightbird]

I'm waiting until the quirks come out before passing judgement. It could have a -75% crit chance, that would fix things. Not hopeful or anything

[Appogee]

The need to sell Mech Packs leads to Power Creep.
Power Creep leads to new Mechs with more Hard Points.
More Hard Points Leads to Boats.
Boats lead to boated weapons being OP.
OP weapon boats lead to entire classes of weapons being nerfed.
Weapon nerfs lead to older chassis becoming useless.

[Nightbird]

Appogee, on 05 April 2018 - 09:02 PM, said:

The need to sell Mech Packs leads to Power Creep.
Power Creep leads to new Mechs with more Hard Points.
More Hard Points Leads to Boats.
Boats lead to boated weapons being OP.
OP weapon boats lead to entire classes of weapons being nerfed.
Weapon nerfs lead to older chassis becoming useless.

Ummm were you away for the past 1/2 year?

Sunspider - DOA
Black Lanner - DOA
Piranha - OP
Hellspawn - DOA
Thanatos - DOA
Nightstar - DOA
Osiris - OK
Arctic Wolf - OK
Nova Cat - DOA

Not exactly raining power creep, I'm actually more worried that PGI will go under from the number of refund requests.

[Mainhunter]

Krivvan, on 05 April 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

Also I'm biased in that the difference in size for a Light isn't that huge a deal to me. I find the Piranha as easy to hit as a Jenner, and feel about as safe in both since I never play with the hope that an enemy is going to miss me simply because I'm small.

People don't miss you because of your size, more because these little critters warp like hell.

[Mystere]

Gaussfather, on 05 April 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

Can't wait to feed my Fafnirs to the fish... I'm starting to think PGI doesn't want to "balance" the PIR because it's their Totem Mech. meh

What is this, another anti-Piranha whine thread?

Wasn't any of the other existing ones sufficient that you had to create another one?

What is the strategy here, whine and cry ad infinitum?

Edited by Mystere, 06 April 2018 - 03:33 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

C H E E K I E Z, on 05 April 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

Can we all just take a moment to remember when the spider with 4 MG's and a Large laser, or the firestarter, both only having 4 MG's was what we were all afraid of.

Let's add in the fact that if they carried the same weight in Clan MGs, they'd be roughly comparable to the current ACH/MLX in terms of dakka capacity now.

[Curccu]

Gaussfather, on 05 April 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

Can't wait to feed my Fafnirs to the fish... I'm starting to think PGI doesn't want to "balance" the PIR because it's their Totem Mech. meh

Yep yep that dual heavy gauss isn't even dangerous to Piranha...

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 05 April 2018 - 09:34 PM, said:

Yep yep that dual heavy gauss isn't even dangerous to Piranha...

Unless with good aim.

[Krivvan]

Mainhunter, on 05 April 2018 - 09:09 PM, said:

People don't miss you because of your size, more because these little critters warp like hell.

Funny. They don't when I kill them.

WrathOfDeadguy, on 05 April 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

Just about the only two things you could do without completely invalidating the 'mech are an agility nerf or a MG spread nerf... both of which will have a massive impact on low-level play and little if any at all on high-level play (since skilled players already know how to compensate for those factors).

Is that a bad thing though? Since it has its biggest negative impact in low-level play.

[Curccu]

The6thMessenger, on 05 April 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

Unless with good aim.

Well that was kinda my point, anyone who sees that piranha and can aim can just instant vaporize it.