182 replies to this topic

[Der Geisterbaer]

Bud Crue, on 10 April 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

Not to quibble, but if you fire clan machine guns at max range the cone spreads between three components, tops.

Depends on the target, the terrain and of course standing completely still on either end. Now the fun thing is: I just tested your claim on Tourmaline against that well known Atlas ... turns out that "hitting where you're pointing them" occured between optimum range and up to 67% of max range. Still nothing I'd even remotely consider "pinpoint".

Bud Crue, on 10 April 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

If you fire at normal crotch hugging or sneak from behind ranges, that we all see in most games, they hit precisely where your cursor is placed. So while MGs are not “pin point” weapons they are, in most circumstances “hit where you are pointing” weapons. Meh.

Now as far as "in most circumstance" is concerned: I rarely see that "crotch hugging" if at all ... just like I'm not necessarily seeing myself or my targets actually standing still even if I manage to sneak up from behind. As always YMMV

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 10 April 2018 - 11:53 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 April 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

Whenever someone uses the term "pinpoint damage" when referring to a weapon with spread I can help myself but wonder what the definition of "pinpoint" actually is these days.

All weapons in MWO have a 'spread' due to one circumstance or another. The term 'pinpoint' was used in this context to reference the weapon's ability to hit the same section with ease and regularity outside of optimal firing conditions...

You can step down now.

[Stinger554]

DrxAbstract, on 10 April 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

All weapons in MWO have a 'spread' due to one circumstance or another.

Umm.....does Gauss not exist in your version of MWO? PPC? ISERPPC? HPPC? LPPC? any of the IS standard ACs? Like......

I think you need to lay off the drinks pal.

[Der Geisterbaer]

DrxAbstract, on 10 April 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

All weapons in MWO have a 'spread' due to one circumstance or another.

So you're suggesting that gauss and lasers "spread" their damage across several zones when firing a reasonably well aimed shot from a standing mech onto a standing target?

DrxAbstract, on 10 April 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

The term 'pinpoint' was used in this context to reference the weapon's ability to hit the same section with ease and regularity outside of optimal firing conditions...

Outside "optimal firing conditions"? "With ease"? Apart from the subjectivity of either of those qualifiers I now at least know what supposedly is the proper definition of "pinpoint" these days. Thx ...

DrxAbstract, on 10 April 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

You can step down now.

~laugh~ And what if I don't "step down now"?

[Davegt27]

Darian DelFord, on 10 April 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

Ok..... I keep hearing that the Piranha 12 MG variant is OP as it can single handily solo whole companies of mechs without being scratched.

So to this I say.... Put your Money where your mouth is.

I have yet to find one video that shows this at all. In fact every video that has been posted shows the piranha taking advantage of the mistakes that their victims make. Sooo.....

Please post any vids that shows a piranha soloing an assault mech that did not make any mistakes. You see when lights make mistakes.... we die.... So show me a piranaha that can solo more than 2 assaults that are actively going after it and it win with little to no damage.

No seriously...... All these cries for nerfs have been heard from PGI and while I understand our ability to gather intel is limited.... surely there must be something out there that shows the piranha can do what everyone says.

I never say a Mech is overpowered or under powered, I've been that way since I started playing

when I first got my Raven Huginn before CW dropped I could take out a DW in like 4sec
yeah I was pretty shocked but did I say anything ---heck no
I got so conditioned that if I could not kill something in 4 sec I would run off

and so it goes with a lot of Mechs

would producing a video change anything nope
will PGI nerf the Piranha no not right away even if they say they will

they will only nerf it if there stats say to nerf something

bottom line don't worry about it
just move on to the next un-nerfed Mech/weapons combination

Edited by Davegt27, 11 April 2018 - 08:21 AM.

[Asym]

We have this discussion everytime we get a new "OP Light mech".... A while back, the Urban mech was the "min-assault" in MWO and then, the Invisable Commando and next..........

Look where we are! At this point in MWO, it really isn't all that important.... Many above threads are spot-on.

But, with Solaris as the "main MWO deliverable", the MG nerf is for Solaris.......not to change anything OP.......but, to elongate TTK so matches last at a minumum 5 minutes.... No flamers right?! Nerf's SPL's and ERML's, right? All of the agility nerf's. All of the Ghost heat nerf's?!.... The precision nerfs..... All of the missle related nerf's.... You get the point....

[The Basilisk]

Darian DelFord, on 10 April 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

Ok..... I keep hearing that the Piranha 12 MG variant is OP as it can single handily solo whole companies of mechs without being scratched.

So to this I say.... Put your Money where your mouth is.

I have yet to find one video that shows this at all. In fact every video that has been posted shows the piranha taking advantage of the mistakes that their victims make. Sooo.....

Please post any vids that shows a piranha soloing an assault mech that did not make any mistakes. You see when lights make mistakes.... we die.... So show me a piranaha that can solo more than 2 assaults that are actively going after it and it win with little to no damage.

No seriously...... All these cries for nerfs have been heard from PGI and while I understand our ability to gather intel is limited.... surely there must be something out there that shows the piranha can do what everyone says.

The fact that a light mech, and to add insult to injury a lightmech using MGs, is able to do anything at all against an Assault without the Assault beeing deadly injured from the start is a sad joke.

Ok maybe if the Assault mech pilot is a total beginner that never piloted a mech before but normaly a light mech should be crippled oder disabled by any hit of a single LLaser, LPLas, AC10, PPC or similar large bore weapon.

But seeing an dedicated anti Infanterie mech like the Piranha just dancing between the salvos of an Assault mech that would suffice to level a medium city and just getting away with slightly scanted armor is just hillarious when even a glancing strike should suffice to ripp of a limb and vaporize its torso armor.

[Athom83]

Darian DelFord, on 10 April 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

Please post any vids that shows a piranha soloing an assault mech that did not make any mistakes. You see when lights make mistakes.... we die.... So show me a piranaha that can solo more than 2 assaults that are actively going after it and it win with little to no damage.

I've done this with my Urbie, but didn't take a video because potato computer. Solo'd a Quad Gauss Kodiak and a Ultra 10 'boating' Mauler on the top platform of HPG, most of which from the front using my Poptart powers and MPL + MG combo.

[Grus]

I got solo kills on 2 ANH and a PB last night in my PIR... So good play or OP?

[DrxAbstract]

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 April 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

So you're suggesting that gauss and lasers "spread" their damage across several zones when firing a reasonably well aimed shot from a standing mech onto a standing target?


Outside "optimal firing conditions"? "With ease"? Apart from the subjectivity of either of those qualifiers I now at least know what supposedly is the proper definition of "pinpoint" these days. Thx ...



~laugh~ And what if I don't "step down now"?

1. It's pretty bloody obvious lasers spread damage and Gauss is subject to the same positional 'drift' as any other weapon, which means it's susceptible to misses and hitting the wrong spots, just like any other weapon.

2. Optimal firing conditions is not subjective; Stationary target within Optimal range presenting an unobstructed avenue for weapons deployment... Pretty basic, not sure how that was confusing. "With ease' has a baseline whereby "anyone can do it" and becomes subjective only when circumstances rise above the baseline circumstances that constitute said conditions: Stationary position, clear line of sight, within optimal weapon range, target size, etc.

3. By all means, continue presenting an attitude with troll-level ignorance, it's non-issue to me... I'm just suggesting it's unwarranted.

Stinger554, on 10 April 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

Umm.....does Gauss not exist in your version of MWO? PPC? ISERPPC? HPPC? LPPC? any of the IS standard ACs? Like......



I think you need to lay off the drinks pal.

Always hit where you were aiming with them? Didn't think so. Maybe in that fantasy world of yours where everything stands still and doesn't shoot back...

I think you need to utilize that brain more, chief.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 10 April 2018 - 12:34 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

DrxAbstract, on 10 April 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

1. It's pretty bloody obvious lasers spread damage and Gauss is subject to the same positional 'drift' as any other weapon, which means it's susceptible to misses and hitting the wrong spots, just like any other weapon.

The fun part still being: neither lasers nor those other ballistics have inherent spread. So it's not as "bloody obvious" as you suggest but rather a constant moving of goal posts and redefining stuff to justify the use of the "pinpoint" terminology.

DrxAbstract, on 10 April 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

2. Optimal firing conditions is not subjective; Stationary target within Optimal range presenting an unobstructed avenue for weapons deployment... Pretty basic, not sure how that was confusing. "With ease' has a baseline whereby "anyone can do it" and becomes subjective only when circumstances rise above the baseline circumstances that constitute said conditions: Stationary position, clear line of sight, within optimal weapon range, target size, etc.

Remember your use of outside in that context? How "common" are those "optimal firing conditions"?

Edit: The fun part there is: You're argueing that weapon with no inherent spread actually spread due to combat conditions whil also claiming that a weapon with inherent spread miracoulsy stays "pinpoint" under the same conditions.

DrxAbstract, on 10 April 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

3. By all means, continue presenting an attitude with troll-level ignorance, it's non-issue to me... I'm just suggesting it's unwarranted.

By all means continue to call me a troll ... that's highly entertaining just like your definition of "pinpoint" and the qualifiers you use for defining that.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 10 April 2018 - 12:47 PM.

[Nightbird]

The Basilisk, on 10 April 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

The fact that a light mech, and to add insult to injury a lightmech using MGs, is able to do anything at all against an Assault without the Assault beeing deadly injured from the start is a sad joke.


Ok maybe if the Assault mech pilot is a total beginner that never piloted a mech before but normaly a light mech should be crippled oder disabled by any hit of a single LLaser, LPLas, AC10, PPC or similar large bore weapon.


But seeing an dedicated anti Infanterie mech like the Piranha just dancing between the salvos of an Assault mech that would suffice to level a medium city and just getting away with slightly scanted armor is just hillarious when even a glancing strike should suffice to ripp of a limb and vaporize its torso armor.

Change your pilot, current one is rolling with huge to-hit penalties.

Edited by Nightbird, 10 April 2018 - 12:51 PM.

[Vonbach]

Good grief the tears. Give it a rest everyone knew the piranha was OP it was OP on tabletop
let alone in game. Its a small light so it was lag armor and there's no knockdown or hand to hand
so Assaults just cant punt the thing. Instead they are helpless all they can do is scream for support
while the thing cores them like an apple or blows off its weapons.

[Darian DelFord]

Vonbach, on 10 April 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

Good grief the tears. Give it a rest everyone knew the piranha was OP it was OP on tabletop
let alone in game. Its a small light so it was lag armor and there's no knockdown or hand to hand
so Assaults just cant punt the thing. Instead they are helpless all they can do is scream for support
while the thing cores them like an apple or blows off its weapons.

Please stop using the lag armor excuse.

While I agree there are Hit Reg Issues, they are no where near as bad as in the past, it affects everything including heavies and assaults.

[Vonbach]

Darian DelFord, on 10 April 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

Please stop using the lag armor excuse.

While I agree there are Hit Reg Issues, they are no where near as bad as in the past, it affects everything including heavies and assaults.

Lag armor is a thing but frankly its besides the point. You have a mech thats basically designed to exploit the crit system. Its tiny and fast And all it has to do hug your crotch and your dead. And in a lot less time than if you were dueling another assault
As soon as I saw this mech announced I could see the massive nerf hammer in the sky over its head and mgs in general.
Its not like everyone couldn't see this coming.

Edited by Vonbach, 10 April 2018 - 01:58 PM.

[Lykaon]

FupDup, on 10 April 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

While I'm on the boat that the Fishbot is overperforming a bit, I still think that the "for its tonnage" argument is stupid.

Tonnage limits always were and always will be a bandaid designed to inhibit the arm's race to bigger robots since the BT IP was designed deliberately from the ground up to be an arm's race. Using the logic "Tonnage limits exist, therefore performance has to correlate to mech weight" is working backwards from the conclusion.

I believe the point being made about the Piranha is it's punching well above it's weight and in Group queue a specific mechanic employed to balance large groups vs smaller groups is tonnage limits.

So let's theoreticly claim a Piranha is dishing average damage equal to a 50 ton mech's typical average. This large group isn't really being sufficently balanced but instead is getting 30 tons of free effective tonnage per Piranha in the team to be employed on mechs that would not otherwise be available to them.

And since doing the same "trick" with a Locust does not gift you with an advantage perhaps it's the Piranha's above class performance that is being exploited?

[DrxAbstract]

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 April 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

The fun part still being: neither lasers nor those other ballistics have inherent spread. So it's not as "bloody obvious" as you suggest but rather a constant moving of goal posts and redefining stuff to justify the use of the "pinpoint" terminology.

Remember your use of outside in that context? How "common" are those "optimal firing conditions"?

Edit: The fun part there is: You're argueing that weapon with no inherent spread actually spread due to combat conditions whil also claiming that a weapon with inherent spread miracoulsy stays "pinpoint" under the same conditions.



By all means continue to call me a troll ... that's highly entertaining just like your definition of "pinpoint" and the qualifiers you use for defining that.

The classic "moving goal posts" ignorance... Lol. Not my fault your narrow field of selective comprehension only allows the recognition of what's made point-blank obvious to you, but your infantile angst is certainly refreshing. This would be easier if I had crayons. Look, I just gave you every piece of the puzzle and you're still arguing in the same nonsensical manner I'd expect from SJWs. It's all connected, there are no 'special circumstances' that apply to one and not the other as they are all factors... Good lord. I've also clarified my use of "pinpoint" and you chose to sidestep it in favor of perpetuating your ignorance.

Do you really believe that if a weapon doesn't have inherent spread built into the mechanics that it simply isn't affected by it? Do you actually believe programmed spread is the only type that exists? That's what you're saying... And it's mind-numbing to see that kind of clueless. You can also stop pretending Mguns have SRM-level spread mechanics.

The dunce is strong with that one... Sheesh.

[Nightbird]

Lykaon, on 10 April 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

I believe the point being made about the Piranha is it's punching well above it's weight and in Group queue a specific mechanic employed to balance large groups vs smaller groups is tonnage limits.

So let's theoreticly claim a Piranha is dishing average damage equal to a 50 ton mech's typical average. This large group isn't really being sufficently balanced but instead is getting 30 tons of free effective tonnage per Piranha in the team to be employed on mechs that would not otherwise be available to them.

And since doing the same "trick" with a Locust does not gift you with an advantage perhaps it's the Piranha's above class performance that is being exploited?

There's no intention on PGI's part to make lights weaker than mediums/heavies/assaults. Their strengths and weaknesses, along with their playstyles are different. The argument 'The Piranha isn't allowed to be effective as a 50 tonner' doesn't apply anywhere in MWO.

Being bigger and heavier only gives you a different set of strengths and weaknesses.

[C E Dwyer]

Well I might put my money where my mouth is after this months patch.

If the Solaris bolt on rubbish stays away from standard Q.P I'll install the game on my new PC, and I might buy the Piranha, I don't like how it looks, never have, never will.

If the bolt on crap does contaminate standard drops I'm not even going to bother downloading

[DrxAbstract]

Cathy, on 10 April 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

Well I might put my money where my mouth is after this months patch.

If the Solaris bolt on rubbish stays away from standard Q.P I'll install the game on my new PC, and I might buy the Piranha, I don't like how it looks, never have, never will.

If the bolt on crap does contaminate standard drops I'm not even going to bother downloading

Take a vacation did you Cathy?