70 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Bombast, on 13 April 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

Queue new thread: "Why does it take so long for a Battlemech to fire it's weapons? Once per minute? Has autoloading technology really slipped that far?

That concern comes up even with the current 10 second turns, honestly.

I guess those Autocannons shoot a really long burst...

[mad kat]

Mark Nicholson, on 13 April 2018 - 08:24 AM, said:

To make the tabletop game fun.
there's an early HBS kickstarter Q&A where Jordan Weisman talks about it (you'll have to hunt it down yourself).
Because of this the lore describes 31st century targeting computers as being total garbage.

However, after all that, the best answer to your question is still Operation Total Freakin' Awesomeness

That was a great read very amusing, thanks for sharing it!

[Brain Cancer]

FupDup, on 13 April 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

That concern comes up even with the current 10 second turns, honestly.

I guess those Autocannons shoot a really long burst...

Even then, we know the answer to "what's rate of fire like" is "we ignore it completely", since Solaris VII rules actually give ROF that means most guns actually can fire multiple times per ten seconds, some at least 4 times per 10 seconds if not more.

[Grus]

mad kat, on 12 April 2018 - 01:45 AM, said:

I've often wondered why the ranges of weapons in this game are so...........Pathetic.......

I mean current main battle tanks have guns that supposedly do an equivalent damage to an AC10. Yet a quick Wikipedia of the M1 Abrams for example reveals they can effectively make kills at over 2.5km.

So just look at those numbers. A current main battle tank has a main gun roughly equivalent to an AC10 but can make 'kills' at 6.25 times the ac10's effective base range. Granted armour levels would be different but still.

So the obvious answer is that Battletech and mechwarrior weapons are considerably more powerful than current weapons so much that the AC10/120mm gun comparison simply isn't true with such huge calibres (or masses in the form of missiles) that the projectiles can't go that far. Weapon weights without ammo would lend some credence to this. If that's the case a Heavy machine gun should be capable of killing a current main battle tank surely. MG's another weapon that has laughably short range.

Current missiles like the hellfire, again Wikipedia are capable of just reaching five miles (8K) away and considering they can be mounted to drones shouldn't be massively larger than the small LRM's that mechs use albeit in a cluster.

Energy weapons though......well that's another matter as i don't know much to compare it too but again seem pretty poor in range.

What i'm getting at is if a mech appeared in current day times in the distance i'd imagine a couple of Abrams/challengers/leopards or even an Apache would of killed the thing or at least messed it up before it even got into effective range! Gauss and ERPPC's would be the mechs only chance at actually doing noticeable damage.

I dont know if you play or have played high teir tanks in Warthunder but if you havent give it a shot (pun intended) and youll see why lol.

Now for the lore part *picks up the Lore Hammer* In the BT univers pilots had some but not all to do with aiming at 500m+. it was for the most part down the the targeting computer to make a firing solution in order to hit the target let alone get in the same zip code. Depending on the computer contributed to how fast that was calculated and such. *puts Lore hammer down*

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Bombast, on 13 April 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

Queue new thread: "Why does it take so long for a Battlemech to fire it's weapons? Once per minute? Has autoloading technology really slipped that far?

The easy argument for that is that each turn can comprise the mech firing multiple times, the hits and damage are not representative of the mech firing only once.

[Angel of Annihilation]

You have to apply alot of suspension of disbelief to battletech/mechwarrior. I mean lets take a MG. Now we all know that even something like a .50 cal MG can effective engage targets out to 2000 meter in real life. However, it isn't able to penetrate alot of armor at 2000 meters. Therefore I always looked at it as less a factor of not being able to reach the target at 2000 meters and more of it just can't hurt Mech armor at those ranges. Instead it had to be at less than 150m to actually effectively damage the armor.

Of course then the introduced Light and Heavy MGs which blow that idea out of the water. I mean the heavier the MG, the more range it should have and the more it should effect armor. Instead the ranges get shorter for some reason so poof there goes my ability to suspend my disbelief. <sigh>.

[FupDup]

Viktor Drake, on 13 April 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

You have to apply alot of suspension of disbelief to battletech/mechwarrior. I mean lets take a MG. Now we all know that even something like a .50 cal MG can effective engage targets out to 2000 meter in real life. However, it isn't able to penetrate alot of armor at 2000 meters. Therefore I always looked at it as less a factor of not being able to reach the target at 2000 meters and more of it just can't hurt Mech armor at those ranges. Instead it had to be at less than 150m to actually effectively damage the armor.

Of course then the introduced Light and Heavy MGs which blow that idea out of the water. I mean the heavier the MG, the more range it should have and the more it should effect armor. Instead the ranges get shorter for some reason so poof there goes my ability to suspend my disbelief. <sigh>.

This is where I have to point out yet again that Battlemech-mounted MGs are probably a lot bigger than 50 caliber. Look at the tonnage values on these things, then compare them to the tonnage of a modern-day Browning or something. They're a lot bigger.

[Nightbird]

Viktor Drake, on 13 April 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

You have to apply alot of suspension of disbelief to battletech/mechwarrior. I mean lets take a MG. Now we all know that even something like a .50 cal MG can effective engage targets out to 2000 meter in real life. However, it isn't able to penetrate alot of armor at 2000 meters. Therefore I always looked at it as less a factor of not being able to reach the target at 2000 meters and more of it just can't hurt Mech armor at those ranges. Instead it had to be at less than 150m to actually effectively damage the armor.

Of course then the introduced Light and Heavy MGs which blow that idea out of the water. I mean the heavier the MG, the more range it should have and the more it should effect armor. Instead the ranges get shorter for some reason so poof there goes my ability to suspend my disbelief. <sigh>.

Agreed here, if PGI upped the maximum range of all MGs to 450 meters, they can keep the lore optimal range and reduce the crit.

For MG and HMG, it's basically a suicide run if you want to use them at all. Get that kill or die trying, no escape or second chances.

[Khobai]

if anything, weapon ranges in MWO are too long.

giving weapons x2 max range was a huge mistake.

Quote

This is where I have to point out yet again that Battlemech-mounted MGs are probably a lot bigger than 50 caliber. Look at the tonnage values on these things, then compare them to the tonnage of a modern-day Browning or something. They're a lot bigger.

machine gun ammo is 1 ton for 2000 rounds

that means each bullet is 1 pound

thats a 30mm round at least

Edited by Khobai, 13 April 2018 - 09:38 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Khobai, on 13 April 2018 - 09:36 PM, said:

machine gun ammo is 1 ton for 2000 rounds

that means each bullet is 1 pound

thats a 30mm round at least

Actually, it's one ton for 200 bursts of ammo in TT. Canonically, even in the same generic type you get everything from very high ROF guns all the way up to 20mm gatlings that are slower shooting but still put a hurt on. And they took this even further later with the "light" and "heavy" MG.

[mad kat]

Khobai, on 13 April 2018 - 09:36 PM, said:

if anything, weapon ranges in MWO are too long.

giving weapons x2 max range was a huge mistake.



machine gun ammo is 1 ton for 2000 rounds

that means each bullet is 1 pound

thats a 30mm round at least

So that would mean that machine guns are really Rarden cannons such like the things equipped to ifv's Bradley's and warriors and the like except with much higher and consistent rate of fire!

[evilauthor]

Viktor Drake, on 13 April 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

You have to apply alot of suspension of disbelief to battletech/mechwarrior. I mean lets take a MG. Now we all know that even something like a .50 cal MG can effective engage targets out to 2000 meter in real life. However, it isn't able to penetrate alot of armor at 2000 meters. Therefore I always looked at it as less a factor of not being able to reach the target at 2000 meters and more of it just can't hurt Mech armor at those ranges. Instead it had to be at less than 150m to actually effectively damage the armor.

Of course then the introduced Light and Heavy MGs which blow that idea out of the water. I mean the heavier the MG, the more range it should have and the more it should effect armor. Instead the ranges get shorter for some reason so poof there goes my ability to suspend my disbelief. <sigh>.

Oh, the explanation for that is easy: shot spread.

A GAU-8 has an effective range of 1200 meters, but at that range, 80% of the bullets fired will hit somewhere in a circle 12 meters wide. You average mech is around 10 meters tall and is often thinner than it is tall. A weapon performance like that will have bullets hitting the mech all over the place.

By contrast, a burst from a Battletech (not so much MWO) AC will have an entire burst hit only one location on a mech, which is MUCH smaller than 12 meters. Ergo, AC's need to land very tight shot groups of bullets in order to do the damage they do, and if the bullets spread out to much, the damage to armor from bullet hits becomes negligible and is counted as a "miss" under the TT rule system.

Yes, a 50 cal can engage targets at 2000 meters. But for most targets, it only needs one bullet to hit in order to inflict major damage or injury. But for an ARMORED target? The bullet would just bounce off, maybe chip off a small piece at best when doing so (which is what seems to happen in BT).

In short, BT ACs need to land very tight shot groups in order to do damage, which drastically reduces their effective range. This also explains why effective range shortens the heavier the AC gets. If you actually look at the stats, the weight of ammo goes being thrown downrange goes up linearly as AC rating goes up, but AC weight does not. There's relatively less mass per weight of shot in the heavier ACs than the lighter ACs, which means the heavier ACs have less mass to absorb recoil when shooting, which in turn means they're more prone to having their barrels dragged off target when firing a burst, which in turn shortens their effective range. Outside their effective range, an AC will hit with the first bullet in a burst, but the rest of the burst will go anywhere and everywhere EXCEPT the target due to recoil.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

My best guess is that seeing as the mechs actively dodge incoming projectiles, the weapon ranges are their *EFFECTIVE* ranges, not their actual ranges. Things like a PPC shot just goes on off forever, but at extreme ranges it would make sense that the mech's AI systems sense the incoming projectile and work to dodge it if its given the time to. This is also why weapons spread all over in TT, it isn't at all because the guns are inaccurate, its because the mechs automatically would twist to avoid damage assuming that the pilot wants to avoid damage.

As for lasers, dust in the battlefield would reduce their effectiveness as range goes on, so even though they are pinpoint light speed weapons they'd reduce in effectiveness after a certain point, presumably to the point where they wouldn't generate enough heat on target to do damage to battlemech armor, which would explain why the smaller and less powerful lasers tend to have shorter ranges. That and light dispersion.

At least that's some quasi-lore explanation of it all. The lore mechs aren't like walking tanks at all, more like battle suits with relatively high agility that scales with the pilot's skill. The mechs also have their own AI systems that help to improve mech survival but rely on the pilot being willing.

[Lily from animove]

because table top and not foodball field top.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

FupDup, on 12 April 2018 - 08:23 PM, said:

Since TT is an abstraction, they could easily just make each hex represent something like 100+ meters rather than only 30 meters while keeping the physical table size unchanged.

try to stack more a one Miniature in a Hex ...better thats with Paper markers like Aerotech

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 14 April 2018 - 09:15 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Brain Cancer, on 13 April 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

Because if it was realistic ranges, people would have required the floor of a Wal-Mart to set up the maps and you'd be able to shoot people from the other side of MWO ones without trouble, but if the maps WERE realistic sizes to make range matter, you'd be unable to cross a quarter of it before time expired.

268/5000
a mech does not have to aim at the weapons with its biological optical sensors via primitive target devices, we have no interface with a cursor projected into the eye and 'Mechs have no muscle trembling, no shaking hands and no breathing..the human body not build to firing with weapons against a Warmachine thats this make better

other side ...BT and Reality? nothing ...not really Targeting Computers not really Guided Missles and other side build Aerospacefighters and Flying over Lightyears ...with the BT Tech the Guys come to the next moon not the next system

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 14 April 2018 - 04:20 AM.

[Lightfoot]

MWO's weapons are heavily nerfed compared to all other MechWarrior games. The Gauss Rifle charge-up? wtf! is that? You mean it's wrong to fire PPCs with Gauss? That's not how I learned to play MechWarrior!

MWO's problems are the mechs are too flimsy and the pilots don't know what map they are playing on before Mechlabbing and the weapon recycles are 1.5X to 2x faster than normal. The downside of all that is weak weapons that offer no map advantage whatsoever. There is little need for positioning other than deathball since the weapons are so tactically weak.

The game would be so much richer if we had either a drop-deck for after Map selection or Mechlab after Map selection which is MechWarrior default set-up. Then the weapons could be map-specific and not have to be vanilla balanced. Players would either bring the right weapons for the map or learn too for next time. The reward would be dynamically changing gameplay each drop instead of repeat, repeat, repeat. The difference would be incredible.

Ranges could be better, more varied as well.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Another factor in why each hex was only so large was to try and keep the speeds of the mechs believable, and to make the difference in hex movement range more dynamic between mechs in the same weight class

[Cabusha]

BoldricKent, on 12 April 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

Its a table top game in its core, so ranges are limited by the practical table size, you have mechs in TT that can outrun range of most mid range weapons , even some long.

I've seen that excuse before and it straight up doesn't fly. Hexes could be scaled at 100m, 200m, 500m, whatever scale is needed for the game.

The real reason? So robots have a reason to punch each other.

[kuma8877]

Cabusha, on 14 April 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

I've seen that excuse before and it straight up doesn't fly. Hexes could be scaled at 100m, 200m, 500m, whatever scale is needed for the game.

The real reason? So robots have a reason to punch each other.

Sure, you can make your scale whatever size you want, but a side effect becomes the size of game pieces (mini's) and how much stuff you can fit in a hex at a time (or lack thereof).

While I agree that punching robots is part of it, TT BT is also meant to be a combined arms game and this means, even if the scale between models isn't perfect, there has to allowances for the proximity of other unit types as well. Hex sized models (bases) (especially at a scale like BT for mechs) don't stack on top of each other very well. The scale was chosen for intimate control of combat between multiple unit types.

I've read that somewhere around 9x the scale/range gets to be about right for real world comparisons.

Edited by kuma8877, 14 April 2018 - 05:57 PM.