41 replies to this topic

[Joe Decker]

To PGI and the Community,

After knowing more Details about the upcoming Solaris 7 Gamemode i wanna explain why I believe it won't work this Way, but might with a few Changes.


- It is a bad Idea in general to have multiple Divisions right from the Start. For a couple of Reasons given below. It would be a much better Idea to let everyone fight everyone. At least for a couple of Weeks until enough Data could be collected. But do we need Division Borders at all ? Not 100% sure about that.

- Duel Mode is very different to PUG Mode and I'd say that no one can fully predict which Mechs will be good in Solaris and which will be bad. I am only sure that we will know which Pilots are good and which ones are bad and which Mechs and Loadouts they will use pretty soon.

- In Solaris Duel Mode Pilot Skill (!) and Nerves (!) and the Map (!) will have a much bigger Impact on the Outcome of the Match than in Quickplay.

- Mechs in different Divisions can not interact with each other right from the Start, so a Player cannot prove that he is able to destroy an Annihilator with a Spider for Example. Sucks the Fun out of the Gamemode. I mean it is not Fun to prove Tier Lists correct, but to prove that a good Pilot with a bad Mech can beat a bad Pilot with a good Mech.

- Also at PGI they must have played another Game the last Couple of Years when they come up with a Division List like that. Seriously, the Yen-Lo-Wang is lower in Tier than the other Centurios ? And the Yen-Lo-Wang is the most Duel friendly of the Cents... Mist Lynxs play in a higher Division than Wolfhounds ? I eat two of those MLX at the same Time with my WLF-2R... QKD-IV4 is better than QKD-4G ? The List is full of Stuff like this. Why not let People play first and think about Classifications later ? Would be the better Way to approach this.

- You cannot really collect much Data when the Divisions are so splitted, so PGI cannot correct their Classifications because they will only have a small Amount of Data at Hand and many Mechs will never meet each other so we can only guess the Classification is correct. Wrong Approach in my Opinion.

- Because of the somewhat small Community you will have the Problem again that some Divisions later on will not be played. So you might run into the Problem that you want to play a low Division Mech and won't get anyone opposing you. We know this annoying Wait from FW/CW already.

- Furthermore the already small Playerbase will be split in 7(!) different Leagues and this alone will increase Wait Times dramatically.

- In the Beginning a lot of Players will play Solaris 7 but usually after the first Weeks are over you will see a serious Drop in Player Activity in the Gamemode, then the Problem with splitting the Gamemode in several Divisions will become even more problematic and Game-breaking.

- Another Issue I see with how Solaris will be selective about which Matches you can observe. So I cannot watch my Buddy dueling another Player if they are not close and high in ELO ? Stupid, those would exactly be the Matches that "I" want to see...

Could bring up a lot more, but that should do for now, enough Stuff to think about already. I hope PGI will realize this fast enough and not fail with another Gamemode again after CW/FW.

Decker out.

Edited by Joe Decker, 15 April 2018 - 04:13 AM.

[arcana75]

Agree that 7 is too many. They were too enamoured with the 7 in Solaris 7?

Weight classes are common in competitive 1v1, but I have never heard of classes based on a supposed combat effectiveness. What's wrong with going by weight and letting the combat results decide? How did they even decide on those classes is beyond me...

Frankly does it matter so much which mech is more effective? Shouldn't S7 go by pilot skill regardless of mech capabilities? Or rather why can't it?

I'm guessing S7 will be in NA, just like FP Invasion and FP Scout. So introducing S7 just adds 1 more bucket. How many will try S7, then how many fewer will stay in S7? I am thinking 100 or fewer. How many watch NGNGTV's 1v1 matches with the pros, and how many type in the hashtags with the chance to fight the pro, and how many do that just to get the prize for participation than aiming for a win? Most of us who do try, will just be fodder and get burnt out fast.

But let's try to see the silver lining. I want to see bolt-ons in QP.

[Jonathan8883]

Decker, your Shift key is broken. It makes your post hard to read.

[Thorqemada]

It is a myth that Mech Skills matter more than Mech Builds - they matter both and the best combination if Skill and Build plus Combat Calmness/Awareness will succeed.

I do fear that that it will degrade into a damagerace though, i expect people will be able to find builds that are able to 1-shot most Mechs and some Mechs will field armaments capale of Alpha around and above 200...

Time will tell...

Edited by Thorqemada, 15 April 2018 - 05:42 AM.

[warner2]

You make a lot of good points. Especially splitting the player base up into 7 queues, although any person playing Solaris 7 is likely to play in several divisions so it's not a hard split (like Faction Warfare where a single player can only be in one faction).

In MW4 there was a player run Solaris competition and I think it was organised better... It was class based with 4 divisions light/medium/heavy/assault and it was FFA / free for all with 8 or 10 players. At the end of the season the top N players from each division went through to playoffs with the same FFA format but with mixed classes. On the plus side each division had its own flavour and strategy (with the light division in-particular being very brawly and hectic) on the other hand the chassis that were not very good were not used very much if at all.

I don't really like the 7 divisions. I don't really like lights being up against assaults for the whole season. I'd prefer class based division even at the cost of having the bad chassis be disused. Then you would find the best light pilot, the best medium pilot, etc. I guess there could also be an open division where you could take whatever you wanted.

[Alkabides]

Nobody has played the mode. Too early to say if it will or won’t work. Sit back and enjoy the ride then after you actually play the mode and know what you’re talking about you’ll at least have an informed opinion.

[Bombast]

Joe Decker, on 15 April 2018 - 04:08 AM, said:

- It is a bad Idea in general to have multiple Divisions right from the Start. For a couple of Reasons given below. It would be a much better Idea to let everyone fight everyone. At least for a couple of Weeks until enough Data could be collected. But do we need Division Borders at all ? Not 100% sure about that.

Divisonless Solaris is a good way to ensure that the mode doesn't survive it's launch. People are already going to abandon it in droves when they realize its fueled by pure cheese, it wont even get off the ground if you start throwing Blackjacks up against Hunchback IICs and Huntsmen.

Quote

- Duel Mode is very different to PUG Mode and I'd say that no one can fully predict which Mechs will be good in Solaris and which will be bad. I am only sure that we will know which Pilots are good and which ones are bad and which Mechs and Loadouts they will use pretty soon.

For one, we totally can predict what will be good in 1v1, because the 'requirements' for such fights are pretty simple. For two, people are already 1v1ing. Like, all the time. PGI even has a weekly contest for it.

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- In Solaris Duel Mode Pilot Skill (!) and Nerves (!) and the Map (!) will have a much bigger Impact on the Outcome of the Match than in Quickplay.

Since those are pretty much the only things that matter in any mode in this game (Unless you count mechlab skill as a seperate thing from pilot skill), no, they wont have a bigger impact.

Quote

- Mechs in different Divisions can not interact with each other right from the Start, so a Player cannot prove that he is able to destroy an Annihilator with a Spider for Example. Sucks the Fun out of the Gamemode. I mean it is not Fun to prove Tier Lists correct, but to prove that a good Pilot with a bad Mech can beat a bad Pilot with a good Mech.

There's the other side of the coin - good pilots in good mechs squashing the life out of everything else.

This isn't a single player game just for you. While you may enjoy the perpetual challenge of trying to take out Annihilators in trash, some people want fair fights they actually have a chance of winning. Opening the divisions up just so a select few mechwarriors can stroke their epeen is absurd.

Quote

- You cannot really collect much Data when the Divisions are so splitted, so PGI cannot correct their Classifications because they will only have a small Amount of Data at Hand and many Mechs will never meet each other so we can only guess the Classification is correct. Wrong Approach in my Opinion.

Divisions do not slow down data collection. It's pretty simply - At the end of the season, check the stats of mechs. Any mechs that have absurdly good stats go up a divisions. Ones that do poorly go down. Easy. In fact, this is how competitive leagues handle their division of teams.

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- Because of the somewhat small Community you will have the Problem again that some Divisions later on will not be played. So you might run into the Problem that you want to play a low Division Mech and won't get anyone opposing you. We know this annoying Wait from FW/CW already.

Probably will happen, but that will be the final symptom of the mode being dead, for other reasons. By the time this point is reached, divisions will be the least of its worries.

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- In the Beginning a lot of Players will play Solaris 7 but usually after the first Weeks are over you will see a serious Drop in Player Activity in the Gamemode, then the Problem with splitting the Gamemode in several Divisions will become even more problematic and Game-breaking.

Players will stop playing Solaris when the rank and file realize exactly what it is at its core. Divisions will have nothing to do with it.

Edited by Bombast, 15 April 2018 - 06:01 AM.

[JC Daxion]

I will not make any judgement till i play..


that said i think solaris will be a huge net gain. finally the 1v1 players and "i wanna play with my bud" will finally be filled

[WobblyShooter]

i have some concerns with the way the divsions are laid out, but im betting that we will see lots of reassignments starting in june patch. keep in mind that many players are going to come back to try S7, so especially early on it will be fun. i love doing 1v1s in our unit, so i expect this to be really fun.

[MischiefSC]

JC Daxion, on 15 April 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

I will not make any judgement till i play..


that said i think solaris will be a huge net gain. finally the 1v1 players and "i wanna play with my bud" will finally be filled

So when you start losing 49 out of 50 matches and the "just play with my bud" duo literally lose every single game they play, how long will it last?

Many of us already play 1v1 and 2v2 all the time. More than we play qp. I know exactly how it will play and hilariously PGI has implemented a system that forces my opponents to take vastly inferior mechs if they're not in literally my exact same build.

It took me about 5 minutes per division to pin down what the meta will be and because of the absolutely insanely irrational division mechs there's 1, in some instances 2, clear top performers. Because it's 7 divisions there's no way you'll have anything like matchmaking. Anyone who brings the top mech and build and isn't incompetent will win almost constantly.

For 2mans it's even more relevant because focus fire and build synergy will be the raised middle finger of God vs any and every casual Yolo couple.

Edited by MischiefSC, 15 April 2018 - 07:15 AM.

[Joe Decker]

Bombast, on 15 April 2018 - 06:01 AM, said:

There's the other side of the coin - good pilots in good mechs squashing the life out of everything else.

This isn't a single player game just for you. While you may enjoy the perpetual challenge of trying to take out Annihilators in trash, some people want fair fights they actually have a chance of winning. Opening the divisions up just so a select few mechwarriors can stroke their epeen is absurd.

I'd say no one forces you to play a "bad" Chassis against a "good one". Most People will simply abandon the bad Chassis naturally, it is just so that the Option should be still in the Game if you want to prove you can duel a good Mech with a so-called bad Mech. There are really some Mechs having a bad Reputation and it would be a nice and refreshing Surprise to see the Underdog Mech beating the so-called Meta Mech in this Mode. Might also influence the QP and FW Modes, so you finally see more different Chassis and Builds in those Modes again.

warner2, on 15 April 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

I don't really like the 7 divisions. I don't really like lights being up against assaults for the whole season. I'd prefer class based division even at the cost of having the bad chassis be disused. Then you would find the best light pilot, the best medium pilot, etc. I guess there could also be an open division where you could take whatever you wanted.

Exactly my Thoughts.

Edited by Joe Decker, 15 April 2018 - 07:29 AM.

[Joe Decker]

MischiefSC, on 15 April 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

Anyone who brings the top mech and build and isn't incompetent will win almost constantly.

Until everyone plays the same Mech and Build - then it comes down to Pilot Skill again. But nevertheless pretty boring when you think about it.

I think you need a System that benefits People who bring weaker Chassis, if they don't see the Fun in playing a weaker Chassis by themselves - they gain more if they put themselves at a Disadvantage, a self inflicted Handicap which will be rewarded.

Also balancing Chassis within the Gamemode itself - without affecting the other Gamemodes might be a Way to handle the Problem.

And another one : PGI could also hand out predefined Mechs and if you win in those you get special Prizes - just another Idea how to handle the Issue and keep the Mode interesting and Fun.

Edited by Joe Decker, 15 April 2018 - 07:28 AM.

[arcana75]

Maybe keep the bolt-ons but do away with custom loadouts. All fixed loadouts and fixed mechs per division.

[Bombast]

Joe Decker, on 15 April 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

I'd say no one forces you to play a "bad" Chassis against a "good one".

And? A completely open queue doesn't force bad mechs, but it does force the best ones. At least Divisions break it up and make it possible to have more 'best' mechs to play. Open queue quickly devolves into 'bring the right mechs or lose,' a problem Scouting, and to a lesser extent QP, already have.

Divisions help people who want variety and to take out some of the lesser used mechs, while not hurting the people who just want to bring the best (In theory, anyway. Div 1 is a mess at the moment).

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There are really some Mechs having a bad Reputation and it would be a nice and refreshing Surprise to see the Underdog Mech beating the so-called Meta Mech in this Mode.

Perhaps, but that is, again, a thing that would affect so few mechwarriors its not worth considering.

Quote

Might also influence the QP and FW Modes, so you finally see more different Chassis and Builds in those Modes again.

Actually, Solaris has already brought variety back to QP, as the unwashed masses of players from the past rush back in in preparation for a new mode, bringing with them their ancient chassis, old meta builds, and straight up buffoonery. It's ****ing horrifying and has turned the queue into a nightmare.

Solaris will not help QP by bringing in 'variety.' What it could do, however, is let people run different (bad) mechs in a safe place where they wont be throwing (Or at least not throwing while 11 people are shackled to them)

Edited by Bombast, 15 April 2018 - 07:45 AM.

[Luminis]

arcana75, on 15 April 2018 - 04:41 AM, said:

Weight classes are common in competitive 1v1, but I have never heard of classes based on a supposed combat effectiveness.

There's this game from the 80s - BattleTech, pretty obscure, you probably never heard of it - that assigned ratings of supposed combat effectiveness to all is units.

arcana75, on 15 April 2018 - 04:41 AM, said:

Frankly does it matter so much which mech is more effective? Shouldn't S7 go by pilot skill regardless of mech capabilities? Or rather why can't it?

You cant separate pilot skill and Mech performance. A bad build is a huge handicap and the difference in skill level isn't going to be big enough to make better players win despite said handicap. Because none of us get Kai-Allard Liao style plot armour so we can keep winning with crap hardware.

Thus, having seven devisions will at least allow players to play, dunno, 7 to 21 Mechs without shooting themselves in the foot instead of 1 to 3.

[Dogstar]

MischiefSC, on 15 April 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

It took me about 5 minutes per division to pin down what the meta will be and because of the absolutely insanely irrational division mechs there's 1, in some instances 2, clear top performers. Because it's 7 divisions there's no way you'll have anything like matchmaking. Anyone who brings the top mech and build and isn't incompetent will win almost constantly

Would you mind letting us (me!) have some clue as to what they are please?

QP is likely to be severely underpopulated the first few days or weeks so it might be that you have to play Solaris to get any action and I'd rather not be the guy losing 49 out of 50 matches because I'm used to QP builds.

[Mystere]

Thorqemada, on 15 April 2018 - 05:41 AM, said:

It is a myth that Mech Skills matter more than Mech Builds - they matter both and the best combination if Skill and Build plus Combat Calmness/Awareness will succeed.

I do fear that that it will degrade into a damagerace though, i expect people will be able to find builds that are able to 1-shot most Mechs and some Mechs will field armaments capale of Alpha around and above 200...

Time will tell...

That may be true. But, that is not stopping me from giving my enemies what they rightfully deserve: death by a thousand cuts -- limb by painful limb. It's more satisfying that way. <maniacal >

[Angel of Annihilation]

Joe Decker, on 15 April 2018 - 04:08 AM, said:

- Also at PGI they must have played another Game the last Couple of Years when they come up with a Division List like that. Seriously, the Yen-Lo-Wang is lower in Tier than the other Centurios ? And the Yen-Lo-Wang is the most Duel friendly of the Cents... Mist Lynxs play in a higher Division than Wolfhounds ? I eat two of those MLX at the same Time with my WLF-2R... QKD-IV4 is better than QKD-4G ? The List is full of Stuff like this. Why not let People play first and think about Classifications later ? Would be the better Way to approach this.

Quite honestly I have suspected this for years. Russ once mentioned us players were on an Island but what he failed to mention was that that Island was the size of Australia and he and the rest of the PGI team were on a tiny boat bobbibng up and down on the vast ocean.

PGI has and continues to make balancing changes that mechanics that are far, far and away from what the community sees as a problem. The LRM velocity change for example. I haven't see a single post in the past few years that I can recall that mentions that the community feels that LRMs are under powered while still on rare occasion seeing posts about the being overpowered yet for reasons unknown, LRMs are getting a buff which is likely just going to get the screams of, "LRMs OP" going again. I guess on that tiny little boat where PGI seems to be playing the game, LRMs are weak or something. I sure as hell know that isn't the case on the Island as us players are playing the game on.

[Cementi]

TT (yes I know people pitch a fit when you mention it but I could care less) understood that not all mechs were made equal. Thats why it had a BV system in to roughly balance an encounter. How players used those mechs was the only difference.

Frankly the game always should have been balanced in this way. Good players will typically run good mechs with good builds. New players, bad players and players like me that just like to run odd ball stuff will not. I may be tier 2 but at least half the time I really shouldn't be due to the random garbage I run for fun because I would rather be repeatedly punched in the nuts before I ran the 8 meta mechs with the same builds that I should to be competitive.

I personally think the entire concept of 1v1 is mind numbingly boring and is nothing more than pointless epeen stroking. I have no use for it.

2v2 has some potential at an interesting diversion now and then when I am tired of the frustration of insta crit all component MG boats. Not saying they are nessesarily OP just that they are not fun and engaging content. I kind of hope 2v2 leads to a 4v4 que as that without the objectives of scouting could actually be fun, at least for me.

The only thing that Solaris gets close to getting right is the fact that they are finally admitting that robots are not all equal and that matchups should really take that into account.

So the only reason I will bother with Snoozelaris is the fact that I can goof around with stuff like my mini centurion Panther 10P and its AC 10 in div 7 and not worry about facing the meta try hards and their one/two shot uber alpha builds. They can go play off in Div 1 where I will literally never play them.

[C E Dwyer]

Nine days to go