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Division 4- Leggers Only


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#21 Golm

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 10:36 PM

View PostMechsniper, on 24 April 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

The fix is too easy here. In Solaris 7 win by legging could come with major elo and rewards penalties vs a non legging win. 2 leg win would be dishonorable and therefore become a negative. Problem solved.


No. There is no problem to solve. You are welcome to your opinion; but mine (and others) is different to yours.

#22 Eisenhorne

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 05:56 AM

I play Div 4 a lot in my Zeus (usually floating around 20-40th ranked, because I can't beat Jagers). I always go for legs on a bushwacker, if I don't they'll probably facehug me and tear out my CT with SRM volleys faster than I can kill them.

Nothing unfair about it.

#23 feeWAIVER

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 08:07 AM

Aren't you supposed to shoot a Bushwhacker in the legs?
Like, isn't that the recommended targeting point again BW's in all game modes?

#24 Eisenhorne

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 09:17 AM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 25 April 2018 - 08:07 AM, said:

Aren't you supposed to shoot a Bushwhacker in the legs?
Like, isn't that the recommended targeting point again BW's in all game modes?


Yes, unless you feel like making the game harder for yourself for no reason.

#25 Lightfoot

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 01:53 PM

View PostKevinRenner, on 24 April 2018 - 09:28 AM, said:

This is a bad argument. It is the same argument people have in CW about objective rushing yet all the snowflakes get to cry that it is a valid tactic. I would think that a guy with your stats would support legging?


I don't leg. Not even Lights. If a mech had a leg orange or red structure, yeah it would be a valid target, but I wouldn't start by shooting the legs. You go ahead though. Hopefully we'll meet up in Solaris for that duel you want with me. ;)

#26 Lightfoot

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 02:09 PM

View PostEisenhorne, on 25 April 2018 - 05:56 AM, said:

I play Div 4 a lot in my Zeus (usually floating around 20-40th ranked, because I can't beat Jagers). I always go for legs on a bushwacker, if I don't they'll probably facehug me and tear out my CT with SRM volleys faster than I can kill them.

Nothing unfair about it.



....but the Legs don't shoot back. You would leave a mech free to hit you with everything for that long? Isn't that an act of desperation rather than a tactic? Suit yourself. It's more armor to go through though, 140 armor points 80 or so structure for both legs. Remember, Solaris 7 is a duel, no one else is there to help shoot legs out. Since I started this post no one has beaten me by shooting at my mech's legs. Mechlab is a beautiful thing.

#27 Eisenhorne

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 09:08 PM

View PostLightfoot, on 26 April 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:



....but the Legs don't shoot back. You would leave a mech free to hit you with everything for that long? Isn't that an act of desperation rather than a tactic? Suit yourself. It's more armor to go through though, 140 armor points 80 or so structure for both legs. Remember, Solaris 7 is a duel, no one else is there to help shoot legs out. Since I started this post no one has beaten me by shooting at my mech's legs. Mechlab is a beautiful thing.


it makes absolute sense to kill a bushwacker's legs because you can take the legs to prevent it from getting within that 100-200 meter sweet spot for SRM range. Take a leg, back off, and finish it from ~300 meters out, where it's SRM's are much less effective.

I don't go for legs on every mech. It's a bad idea against a lot of mechs. But the BSW in particular is very vulnerable to it.

#28 Luminis

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 02:14 AM

View PostLightfoot, on 23 April 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

if you do leg right from the start I will show you no honor, you deserve none.

I really need to pin a "leg on sight" list to my monitor and add all you guys with your arbitrary honor rules.

#29 Lightfoot

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 11:50 AM

View PostLuminis, on 27 April 2018 - 02:14 AM, said:

I really need to pin a "leg on sight" list to my monitor and add all you guys with your arbitrary honor rules.


Were you never in a Merc unit? Most have a mildly enforced code of honor if they RP BattleTech at all. The notion of mech pilots being the 31st century's version of a knight in armor is why MWO is usually pretty friendly with players saying GL GH, etc. You know, the elite of the elite? Well the elite of the elite don't need to leg. Legging is a legitimate tactic certainly. Legging from the start has no honor and diminishes the game.

Everybody does what they want, but when most just want to leg, well you bring a loadout that can counter it. The gameplay becomes very one dimensional, you come ready to leg, I come ready to defeat leggers. Maybe that's all Solaris 7 can be with the very tiny mini-maps.

Besides, after you have played MechWarrior games for many years you learn that it's tactically a bad idea to just shoot at a mechs legs. You will learn soon enough. Legs don't shoot back, the weapons are higher up.

#30 Eisenhorne

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 12:22 PM

View PostLightfoot, on 27 April 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

Legging from the start has no honor and diminishes the game.


Can you find me a single battletech source that backs this up?

#31 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 12:09 AM

Legging in Solaris, as described in the canon Rifleman "Legend Killer" short story.

Quote

Noton leaned back into the command couch; sweat stung his eyes. The weight of his neurohelmet, a well-known friend, rubbed his shoulders as he pulled the throttle smoothly back. The Rifleman almost slid on the sandy ground, coming to an abrupt halt at the edge of the descending partition. Dragging his weapon’s joystick into the air, his BattleMech’s long arms—paired Magna large lasers and Imperator-A autocannons—searched for a target.

Right … about …

The eighty-ton Victor vaulted into view on the blindingly bright plasma of its jump jets before the massive partition was barely halfway down.

Noton grimaced. His aim was off by a good two meters, but he quickly swung the targeting reticule in line as it burned bright gold across his HUD. He grinned wickedly and pulled the triggers, managing pinpoint accuracy despite the machines’ relative motions. Twin cerulean beams flashed, gouging white-hot furrows and sloughed off armor in blobs of already cooling slag. The autocannons followed, vomiting metal towards the target, chewing into the already damage right leg. Recoil and the rapidly dropping BattleMech attempted to walk the streams up the Victor’s leg, but Noton kept his aim on track, savaging the last of the limb’s armor and sinking deep into the ’Mech’s shin. Secondary flashes of bright light spawned from additional internal structural damage within the blackened cavity.

Hyperfocused, time seemed to dial down. Against the waves of waste heat washing through the cockpit after the alpha strike, Noton gasped and watched the Victor touch down.

Come on … come on!

The assault ’Mech’s leg crumpled under the hard impact of the jump. The Victor listed heavily before collapsing to the ground in a roar.

Time sped back up. Noton’s second-to-last bout before the finals was finished. The roar of the crowd—heard even through the cockpit—replaced the rumble of his adversary’s limb-shattering fall.


#32 B0oN

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 02:56 AM

Leg everyone, EVER .

#33 Luminis

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 03:14 AM

View PostLightfoot, on 27 April 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

Were you never in a Merc unit? Most have a mildly enforced code of honor if they RP BattleTech at all.

I wouldn't touch any unit that RPs with a ten foot pole, thank you very much.

View PostLightfoot, on 27 April 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

You know, the elite of the elite? Well the elite of the elite don't need to leg.

Good players know what Mechs to leg, what Mechs to CT and what Mechs to ST and go for the efficient kill. They ought to do that, at least.

View PostLightfoot, on 27 April 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

Legging is a legitimate tactic certainly. Legging from the start has no honor and diminishes the game.

I'll ask you outright this time: Why should I give a flying **** about what you think is honourable? I couldn't care less about violating your arbitrary code of honour that - as Jay Leon Hart pointed out - doesn't even line up with the game's fluff.

#34 Lightfoot

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 08:15 AM

Well there you have it. Most Solaris 7 players have no compunction about legging from the start. It does diminish the gameplay integrity, although I am sure no one who Legs to win sees it that way. Technically it should take more time to destroy both legs than to destroy the mech's center torso since there is more armor and structure in two legs and they are harder to hit since they are moving the fastest. If that is not the case then an adjustment is needed. Or just accept that Solaris 7 will be a legging contest which will discourage interest in the format because it's not how MechWarrior is supposed to work conceptually.

As I move up in Division 4 my opponents are more and more likely just shoot my mech's legs and yesterday there were only 3-4 players in the cue, sometimes 1 or none at all. That's bad for a brand new game mode if you are drawing on all players on all servers. The division imbalances are also to blame of course, but when your opponents just run up and face-hug and leg your mech, you are going to reject the notion that Solaris 7 is connected to a MechWarrior combat competition and just move on.



.

Edited by Lightfoot, 28 April 2018 - 08:19 AM.


#35 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 08:34 AM

View PostLightfoot, on 28 April 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

Technically it should take more time to destroy both legs than to destroy the mech's center torso since there is more armor and structure in two legs and they are harder to hit since they are moving the fastest. If that is not the case then an adjustment is needed.

That's already the case, so no adjustment needed, like you said.

View PostLightfoot, on 28 April 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

Or just accept that Solaris 7 will be a legging contest which will discourage interest in the format because it's not how MechWarrior is supposed to work conceptually..

Yeah, it's only worked that way since (at least) MW3.

View PostLightfoot, on 28 April 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

but when your opponents just run up and face-hug and leg your mech, you are going to reject the notion that Solaris 7 is connected to a MechWarrior combat competition and just move on.

See above Posted Image

#36 Lightfoot

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 10:04 AM

View PostJay Leon Hart, on 28 April 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

That's already the case, so no adjustment needed, like you said.


Yeah, it's only worked that way since (at least) MW3.


See above Posted Image


Actually, the MW4 Devs saw that there was a problem with MechWarrior 3 mechs losing their legs and arms too fast and so they strengthened them in MW4 to be more in line with MechWarrior lore expectations. Gameplay was greatly improved as arms became good damage shields and legging was rare. This is common knowledge. Posted Image

Edited by Lightfoot, 28 April 2018 - 10:08 AM.


#37 Brauer

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 12:24 PM

View PostLightfoot, on 28 April 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:


Actually, the MW4 Devs saw that there was a problem with MechWarrior 3 mechs losing their legs and arms too fast and so they strengthened them in MW4 to be more in line with MechWarrior lore expectations. Gameplay was greatly improved as arms became good damage shields and legging was rare. This is common knowledge. Posted Image


Whenever I drop in Solaris (or MWO in general) I expect my opponent to try to exploit my build's (and my) weaknesses, and mitigate the strengths of the same. The Bushie has good hitboxes and tons of armor, of course people are going to go for legs. Without that option I wouldn't be surprised to see the Bushwacker nerfed. It is frustrating to be countered so hard, I have had it happen in my crab, but you can either adjust your tactics or bring a different mech where people aim above the waist.

#38 Throe

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:16 PM

View PostLightfoot, on 27 April 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

Were you never in a Merc unit? Most have a mildly enforced code of honor if they RP BattleTech at all.

The truly funny thing about using this statement to backup claims that anyone in MWO should adhere to any given player's assumptions about honor is that the classic story mentions a pretty strong advantage for the Inner Sphere just in the fact that they were willing to do whatever it took to win. When the Clan's weapons and warriors were better in every way, they still had a strict code of honor that prevented them from taking certain actions during a fight.* Inner Sphere warriors had no such limitations, and used this against the Clans to great effect, especially after they figured out some of the Clans' specific criteria for honorable combat.

It's much the same as guerrilla warfare fighting against organized units from larger, more powerful countries. Often, the guerrilla fighters can achieve success despite a massive disparity in armament and technology level, simply because they have no "standard operating procedure", and nothing is "off limits" as concerns their fighting capabilities.

You're not going to get anywhere with this argument. Solaris 7 is a "no-holds-barred" arena. The only thing players have to be mindful of are things that are already outlined in the MWO Code of Conduct.

*This single fact is one of the most significant reasons Clan weaponry can't be outright better in MWO. It's a segway to this discussion, but it's worth mentioning because PGI has never attempted to enforce any "honorable combat" rules. If they had any plan to, it would've been with the introduction of the Clans that they would've first done it.

Edited by Throe, 30 April 2018 - 01:18 PM.


#39 Throe

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:21 PM

View PostLightfoot, on 28 April 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

...the MW4 Devs saw that there was a problem with MechWarrior 3 mechs losing their legs and arms too fast and so they strengthened them in MW4 to be more in line with MechWarrior lore expectations...

MW3 'Mechs would die after a single leg got destroyed, and MW4 was garbage. Your comparison is irrelevant.

#40 Hazeclaw

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:51 PM

View PostLuminis, on 27 April 2018 - 02:14 AM, said:

I really need to pin a "leg on sight" list to my monitor and add all you guys with your arbitrary honor rules.


Lmao, pls do share the list when rdy

I seriously don't get all this complaining about legging. It has always been a legit way to drop a mech, and the best way to drop many of them. It's like b*tching about ppl STing my IS XL mechs, or shooting arms off a dakka cat, and dont even get me started on those cheap headshots, so honourless. Yes, your enemies will take the fastest path to taking you down. Thats what good enemies do. If you're consistently getting killed by legging, I have news for you: you lost to a better pilot





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