47 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Brain Cancer, on 26 April 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

Rifles were already an in-timeline solution, right down to the "weaker vs armor" bit we use for machine guns...and they're actually retro-tech, so they've been technically available even if we were still in 3025-era stuff. Clanners

Light rifles are 3 tons for a weapon that is incapable of dealing damage to armor.The Medium is 5 tons for SL damage, and the Heavy is 8 tons for MPL damage, Also, the shots/ton on these weapons are pathetic (6 for the Heavy, slightly better for the lighter rifles).

The Medium Rifle might be a viable alternative to the AC2, but the Light and Heavy are not viable weapons.

[Brain Cancer]

Escef, on 26 April 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

Light rifles are 3 tons for a weapon that is incapable of dealing damage to armor.The Medium is 5 tons for SL damage, and the Heavy is 8 tons for MPL damage, Also, the shots/ton on these weapons are pathetic (6 for the Heavy, slightly better for the lighter rifles).

The Medium Rifle might be a viable alternative to the AC2, but the Light and Heavy are not viable weapons.

Armor is doubled in MWO, which means the corresponding damage penalty rifles get in TT has to be halved. This actually means all three rifles deal damage in MWO. It also means the heavy rifle packs a very respectable punch, especially once you chew through armor. Likewise, ammo counts would go up- just like almost every ammo-using system in MWO ends up doing.

[Escef]

Brain Cancer, on 26 April 2018 - 12:49 PM, said:

Armor is doubled in MWO, which means the corresponding damage penalty rifles get in TT has to be halved. This actually means all three rifles deal damage in MWO.

I'm not even going to ask about the underlying "logic" on that. The damage penalty is due to the quality of the armor, not the quantity.

Rifles represent pre-spaceflight tank guns, the armor and weapons used on mechs is over a thousand years more advanced.

[Exilyth]

Rifles and Rocket launchers are a must for all the periphery roleplayers.

Athom83, on 26 April 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

https://mwo.smurfy-n...4894732494892bf

Like that, but with 2x ER-SML and 1t more ammo.

[LordNothing]

Viktor Drake, on 25 April 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

The Jam chance makes all UAC's awkward to be honest. I can't count the times I have been in a situation where I have absolutely needed every ounce of firepower I could muster to survive a situation and the second I tap the UAC, it gets jammed. Overall the damage is very superior to a standard AC but they will always let you down at the worst times it seems. Unfortunately for a Clanner, you really don't have any options though since the LBX cannons can't really be seen as a replacement like standard ACs can be a replacement for the IS side.

every now and again i will have a game where my uac will jam every single shot. sure its supposed to be random but its a little too random for my tastes. things like cold jams should never happen. guns with bursts should do a small jam roll every round rather than a big one on the doubletap in order to make it a little less all or nothing.

this is where people usually say 'dont double tap', but thats kind of the point of the weapon and the extra heat often has me using the standard model in that case. unless im strapped for hardpoints and have a good secondary weapon, like srms or lasers. thats where i put most of my uacs, into mixed builds where i dont need to depend on it as much.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 April 2018 - 11:06 PM.

[LordNothing]

Brain Cancer, on 26 April 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

Rifles were already an in-timeline solution, right down to the "weaker vs armor" bit we use for machine guns...and they're actually retro-tech, so they've been technically available even if we were still in 3025-era stuff. Clanners

LAC's come next, being Jihad-era tech. Along with those, we get the Magshot, and the Clans get AP Gauss (basically both are super-light Gauss style weaponry mostly useful for killing soft targets/infantry but with good reach) and the PAC, designed for Protomechs but also serving as a lighter ballistic option for Clan chassis, and the HAG as a heavier ballistic option instead. Finally, the Clans get their own rotary ACs.

if i had to choose i think id want the lac over any of the rifles.

unless of course the rifles would ignore the rules regarding armor damage. instead of -3 armor penalty, make it -1.5. so the l,m,h rifle would do 1.5, 4.5 and 7.5 armor damage respectively. all would come with a good crit chance. of course it would have terrible heat, moderate range and a slow cd.

you could also have the gun come with the equivalent of 2 tons ammo built in but not extendable, to make it less viable on heavier mechs.

the light rifle is then the po man's lac2, the medium rifle is the po man's lac5/uac2, and the heavy rifle the po mans ac5. would be like: hmg < light rifle < lac2 < ac2 < med rifle < uac2 < lac5 < heavy rifle < ac5 ... would fill out the low end is ballistics nicely. clans could get the protomech ac2/4/8, and hags.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 April 2018 - 12:01 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

LordNothing, on 27 April 2018 - 11:47 PM, said:

if i had to choose i think id want the lac over any of the rifles.

unless of course the rifles would ignore the rules regarding armor damage. instead of -3 armor penalty, make it -1.5. so the l,m,h rifle would do 1.5, 4.5 and 7.5 armor damage respectively. all would come with a good crit chance. of course it would have terrible heat, moderate range and a slow cd.

Like I said, since we have twice the armor points to penetrate, halving the damage penalty would be fair- especially given rifles having a lower shot/ton to begin with. Likewise, autocannons in MWO all get additional ammo/ton, so you'd be looking at something like 38 shots/ton for a light rifle, and even heavy rifles would get at least 12, for a gun that delivers 7.5 damage per hit to armor/9 damage to structure, making it competitive with it's cousins the AC/5 and AC/10.

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the light rifle is then the po man's lac2, the medium rifle is the po man's lac5/uac2, and the heavy rifle the po mans ac5. would be like: hmg < light rifle < lac2 < ac2 < med rifle < uac2 < lac5 < heavy rifle < ac5 ... would fill out the low end is ballistics nicely. clans could get the protomech ac2/4/8, and hags.

It's why I say the rifle family could fill in some big gaps at the bottom of the ballistics layout, and work well with the new LACs to come for the IS tech tree.

[Variant1]

just read about rifles, hek yes add them too. Also hyper acs sound cool as well, and HAG for clans. Still lots of cool weapons to add and hyped or how they would sound

[FupDup]

Variant1, on 28 April 2018 - 08:45 PM, said:

just read about rifles, hek yes add them too. Also hyper acs sound cool as well, and HAG for clans. Still lots of cool weapons to add and hyped or how they would sound

For cool sounding weapons the award goes to Binary Laser Cannon. Timeline friendly, too!

If we really wanted to get insane we could add the RISC Hyper Laser, but it's way far out in the timeline and a single beam doing 20 damage (perhaps more since MWO lasers usually do) at 750 meters would be kinda crazy...

[evilauthor]

I'd love to have LACs in this game, but PGI seems to have caught Catalyst's "Don't make any tech obsolete" disease.

[Brain Cancer]

FupDup, on 28 April 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

For cool sounding weapons the award goes to Binary Laser Cannon. Timeline friendly, too!

If we really wanted to get insane we could add the RISC Hyper Laser, but it's way far out in the timeline and a single beam doing 20 damage (perhaps more since MWO lasers usually do) at 750 meters would be kinda crazy...

It isn't even past the prototype stage in 3145, never mind production.

The massive explosion a damaged one generates might be somewhat a minus as well, though it's basically the heavy laser equivalent of the same line of thought that produced the Binary Laser/Blazer weapon system. Go very, VERY big in this case, as the hyperlaser is the energy equivalent of an AC/20 hit with the range exceeding ERPPCs. And 24 heat per shot. Ow.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

MechaBattler, on 25 April 2018 - 11:34 AM, said:

I think Fupdup has the right of it. I don't remember the last I faced someone using AC5s.

Play Solaris division 5 for a little while. You'll start to hate the darn things.

[LordNothing]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 28 April 2018 - 11:47 PM, said:

Play Solaris division 5 for a little while. You'll start to hate the darn things.

they are fine when boated, but as a single gun it leaves a lot to be desired. 8 tons plus ammo or you can do 1t for an er medium laser for almost the same result. this is the very problem lights have with ballistics and why we need lighter alternatives. any they could carry would waste all the tonnage.

having the low end go lmg < mg < hmg < mg array < light rifle < lac2 and so on, options for every possible value of available tonnage.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 April 2018 - 12:50 AM.

[Khobai]

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this is the very problem lights have with ballistics and why we need lighter alternatives.

light AC5 isnt going to help light mechs. its just going to help heavies and assaults boat them more easily.

what light mechs need is the mech rifles

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 24 April 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

Clans should also get chemical lasers, ER pulses, and HAGs.

What is the point of chemical lasers in MWO?
There's no option to run a combustion engine and we have no tanks.

The Large Chemical Laser is the Large Laser equivalent in the Chemical Laser family. Intended for use on combat vehicles that have an ICE or Fuel Cell engine, the chemical laser uses a "shell" of lasing chemicals to create the energy it needs to fire a laser beam at a target. The drawback to this system is that unlike every other laser system that exists, it can actually run out of ammunition. The key advantage to the system is that it will operate on vehicles that lack a fusion engine and it doesn't require power amplifiers.^[2]
The Large Chemical Laser has a range and damage profile identical to an Inner Sphere Large Laser. However, the Large Chemical Laser is so bulky that it cannot be used by ProtoMechs.<sup>[1]

The idea behind them, is in the case of Combustion engines to be able to use lasers and in the case of Fuel Cell engines, to be able to use them without draining your fuel.</sup>

[Khobai]

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What is the point of chemical lasers in MWO?

lower heat at the expense of using ammo

you do realize weapon stats dont have to be exactly the same as tabletop right? PGI can change them. As they have on many weapons already.

chemical lasers would simply have to have heat low enough to justify using ammo.

regular large laser = 9 damage for 7 heat

chemical large laser = something like 9 damage for 5 heat, but also uses ammo

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There's no option to run a combustion engine and we have no tanks.

thats irrelevant really since neither of those is needed for the chemical laser to be useful on mechs

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I'm not even going to ask about the underlying "logic" on that. The damage penalty is due to the quality of the armor, not the quantity.

Like I said above, PGI has already changed stats on tabletop weapons.

They can simply get rid of the -3 damage rule. Tabletop limitations need not hold MWO back.

Mech Rifles could easily be made into serviceable weapons in MWO. There needs to be a ballistic option in between machine guns and autocannons and mech rifles fit that bill.

Edited by Khobai, 29 April 2018 - 07:31 AM.

[Escef]

Brain Cancer, on 28 April 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

Like I said, since we have twice the armor points to penetrate, halving the damage penalty would be fair

Penalty is based upon quality, not quantity. By this logic, the more armor you mount on a mech, the less effective said armor should be.

I don't understand this obsession with trying to take a weapon that is supposed to be obsolete retrotech and turning it into a viable weapon. This is the kind of foolishness that would inspire a matchlock Gatling gun as a viable alternative to the M240B.

Edited by Escef, 29 April 2018 - 07:46 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't understand this obsession with trying to take a weapon that is supposed to be obsolete retrotech and turning it into a viable weapon. This is the kind of foolishness that would inspire a matchlock Gatling gun as a viable alternative to the M240B.

its simple. the game needs something in between a machine gun and an autocannon.

lots of weapons in MWO are already supposed to be obsolete in the current timeline, but PGI has changed the stats to make them useful. so why are mech rifles an exception?

there is nothing foolish about adding a new weapon that fills a niche that is currently non-existent.

Edited by Khobai, 29 April 2018 - 07:50 AM.

[Escef]

Khobai, on 29 April 2018 - 07:48 AM, said:

its simple. the game needs something in between a machine gun and an autocannon.

lots of weapons in MWO are already supposed to be obsolete in the current timeline...

While I can agree on the first point (and would like to see it filled by LACs and AP/Magshot Gauss), the second point is... I mean, other than Rocket Launchers (which were retrotech that was made popular by the Marian Hegemony and Solaris Arenas, and adopted by arms manufacturers when they discovered the massive knockout power they had), I can't think of anything in MWO that is supposed to be "obsolete". ER and Pulse weapons did not obsolete their standard cousins. Light and Heavy versions of weapons did not obsolete other versions. Even UACs and LBX did not obsolete weapons (the LB10X came close to it until specialty ammo for non-LBX/U ACs came along). And none of the weapons in MWO ever had a penalty to damage due to severe obsolescence.

I get it, there's a need. And this idea is the WRONG way to fill it.

[Escef]

Brain Cancer, on 28 April 2018 - 11:43 PM, said:

It isn't even past the prototype stage in 3145, never mind production.

Like you care about that? You want to take pea-shooter pre-spaceflight weapons against Battlemechs. And you want the stats for those weapons altered to such an extreme extent that they no longer are even the same weapons at all. Why would you care about using a weapon with a production date that's out of timeline?