46 replies to this topic

[Grus]

theta123, on 08 May 2018 - 11:14 PM, said:

Clan LB weapons= superior in size and tonnage compared to IS variants

Correct and that's really the only advantage. IS has the advantage in spread, making more of the grapeshot is going to one location at the same range where clan has a bigger spread. Kinda like the IS srm vs Clan.

[Jackal Noble]

Grus, on 09 May 2018 - 06:51 AM, said:

Correct and that's really the only advantage. IS has the advantage in spread, making more of the grapeshot is going to one location at the same range where clan has a bigger spread. Kinda like the IS srm vs Clan.

Yep, try getting a headshot with a clan lb vs IS. Hint one behaves better.

Enough of this A.D.D. nonsense.
Threads' about the C-UAC20.

[MechaBattler]

I think all AC20 types should get a bump in velocity. It wouldn't make them OP. I mean originally they nerfed their velocity because even outside of optimal range they were considered too good. But now we have more damage and DPS flying around that I don't think it will break the bed to buff velocity on them.

[Eisenhorne]

If they made it so all UAC-class weapons never triggered ghost heat when double-tapping, they'd be much better.

Having 2 UAC10 trigger ghost heat when you double tap them is dumb. Having a SINGLE UAC20 trigger ghost heat on itself when it double-taps is absolutely dumb.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Reduce pellet count to 3 (same as IS UAC20)
Reduce heat to 6 (same as Clan & IS AC20)
Increase slots to 10 (same as IS AC20 & UAC20)

Or even

Reduce pellet count to 3 (same as IS UAC20)
Reduce heat to 6 (same as Clan & IS AC20)
Increase Ghost Heat limit to 2 (same as Clan & IS LB20X)
Increase slots to 11 (same as IS LB20X)

[Brain Cancer]

The second you say "change crit spaces" or "change tonnage", the suggestion is automatically useless as those are the two things PGI will not alter under any circumstance.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Brain Cancer, on 09 May 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

The second you say "change crit spaces" or "change tonnage", the suggestion is automatically useless as those are the two things PGI will not alter under any circumstance.

True, but this is fantasy land, where PGI values player feedback

[Angel of Annihilation]

Battlemaster56, on 08 May 2018 - 08:02 PM, said:

I just want less heat a shorter jam time, also gh limit raise to 2 so I can fire two at a time.

CAC don't Jam. I think your thinking of UAC's or Ultra ACs. CAC stands for Clan AC.

CAC's were added to the game to act as a placeholder for the ammo switching characteristic of the LB-10X cannons while they figured out how to make on the fly ammo switching work. Well they never figured it out and just kind of forgot to remove the placeholder when they stopped trying to implement the ammo switching.

What CAC's should be if they are going to leave them in the game at all, is a SINGLE SHOT AC option for the Clans. As such it would be a replacement option for the Clan UAC for those players looking for more PPD and reliability at the expense of overall DPS.

As they are now though I honestly can't really see the point of mounting them. They do offer reliability as they do not jam but because they function more like a laser steaming out multiple shots that prevent you from concentrating the fire, they just don't offer enough to compete with UACs which just win out through sheer DPS even with the absurd jam chances they encounter.

For them to complete, aside from being single shot ACs like I mentioned earlier, they need some buffs like reduced cooldown. For example, allow them to cooldown maybe 25% faster than UACs meaning they could achieve maybe 75% of the raw DPS of a UAC but without having to worry about the consequences of a jam. Another option would be to increase the rate of fire of the burst, i.e. instead of 3 shells fired over 1.5 seconds, they fire 3 shells over 0.75 seconds, kind of like a pulse laser version of ACs.

In any case, I don't care what they do, I just wish they would do something because I absolutely hate that if you want to use ACs on a Clan mech, your only choice is the unreliability of a UAC that often jams every other shot or the unreliability of a LBX cannon that fires shotgun shells in the direction of the enemy. I really want an AC option for that clans that shoots when I click the button, each and every time I click the button and allows me to engage and hit targets at decent ranges (400-500-600m) without peppering damage all over the mech while also doing a decent amount of damage. CAC could and should be able to do this and I would love it if PGI would make them good enough to at least be worthy of considering to mount over a UAC or LBX. Right now there is just nothing about them that remotely make them a better choice.

[Jackal Noble]

Ok fine, since what Brain said makes sense and all - PGI doesn't jack with crit spaces or weight, so they tweak other values to give a weapon it's "flavor"

Step back a second -

The way I see it there are some limited major tweaks that can be done without throwing balance severely out of whack or from one side to the other.

For Both

Increase velocity
Increase cooldown

IS - Single shot.

Clan - double shot.

[Nema Nabojiv]

JackalBeast, on 09 May 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

Increase velocity
Increase cooldown

IS - Single shot.

Clan - double shot.

That's totally unnecessary. Flat reduction to jam chances across the board will be enough. And removing GH from 20-s.

On a second thought, GH for is ac20 should stay as IS have their dual HGR. So, removing GH from clan 20s would be enough.

Edited by Nema Nabojiv, 09 May 2018 - 02:31 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Nema Nabojiv, on 09 May 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

On a second thought, GH for is ac20 should stay as IS have their dual HGR. So, removing GH from clan 20s would be enough.

If Clan AC20s also only fit in STs with a STD engine, then sure. As-is, buff GH for all AC20s or none of them.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Jay Leon Hart, on 09 May 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:

If Clan AC20s also only fit in STs with a STD engine, then sure. As-is, buff GH for all AC20s or none of them.

No no no. You see. in one of GH threads people started that BS about AC20 without GH would make HGR and LBX obsolete, and yada-yada blah-blah.

Therefore, leaving GH on IS AC20 will surely satisfy them. As for clans, you can already do two LBX20, and you dont have HGR to worry about. Thus removing GH from clan UAC20s wont make anything obsolete and will somewhat remedy their crazy jams and long facetimes. I think that's fair.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Nema Nabojiv, on 09 May 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

No no no. You see. in one of GH threads people started that BS about AC20 without GH would make HGR and LBX obsolete, and yada-yada blah-blah.

Therefore, leaving GH on IS AC20 will surely satisfy them. As for clans, you can already do two LBX20, and you dont have HGR to worry about. Thus removing GH from clan UAC20s wont make anything obsolete and will somewhat remedy their crazy jams and long facetimes. I think that's fair.

GH of 4 on IS LL/ERLL then, to match HLL? Plus GH of 8 on IS ML/ERML, to match HML & Clan ERML? Deal.

But no, for all the reasons in the last 4 threads about AC20 GH. I would love it to be set to 2, but wth the number of other changes that it would make necessary, it's just not worth it.

Anyway, how do you figure that making UAC20 the superior choice to the LB20X doesn't obsolete them?

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 09 May 2018 - 03:26 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Oh man what a rabbit hole.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Jay Leon Hart, on 09 May 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

GH of 4 on IS LL/ERLL then, to match HLL? Plus GH of 8 on IS ML/ERML, to match HML & Clan ERML? Deal.

What makes you think we're:
a. making any deals
b. making any deals on lasers when the topic is clearly about UAC20?


PS. LBX20 is already obsoleted by HGR, I see no point holding AC20s back to keep already useless gun afloat.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Nema Nabojiv, on 09 May 2018 - 03:50 PM, said:

What makes you think we're:
a. making any deals
b. making any deals on lasers when the topic is clearly about UAC20?


PS. LBX20 is already obsoleted by HGR, I see no point holding AC20s back to keep already useless gun afloat.

A. I'm sorry, I thought we were talking weapon balance. My mistake
B. If it's clearly about UAC20, why bring up the HGauss?
PS. When did Clans get the HGauss to obsolete their LB20X?

[LordNothing]

Exilyth, on 09 May 2018 - 06:10 AM, said:

I'd give all C-UACs a small velocity buff.



1x UAC20
2x UAC10
2x UAC5

Alpha: 50 dmg
Double tap: 100 dmg

Isn't affected by ghost heat, but VERY low on ammo (~1.5t* per UAC).
edit: forget the ghost heat part - double tapping the uac10s triggers ghost heat


Could also go with 4x UAC20 and chainfire, but that's not worth it because you only get 2.5t* of ammo.


*w/max armour

ive done 3x uac20s. so long as you tap them off one at a time and have a half second between shots no gh, but you wont be able to fire them for very long. you can fire 20 damage every 2/3 of a second for a dps of 30. its nuts. but in terms of alpha performance i think i prefer the cac layout because it runs cooler and is more useful in a brawl. either way its a very situational loadout that isnt really practical in the long term.

i actually like chaining cac20s. because its like a rapid fire ac5 that fires 8 rounds. it also looks damn cool and can drill core. people are silly for demanding shorter bursts for their autocannon. damn you p&c adventure game warriors!

Edited by LordNothing, 09 May 2018 - 04:04 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

NimoStar, on 09 May 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:

Stop being such a blind loyalist... so you want the clan nerfed and the IS one boosted to the former clan value? How does that even make sense? Why does the IS UAC have to get stronger to balance clan UAC getting nerfed? . . .

I'm neither blind nor a loyalist. I am far and away better at this game than you are, with more experience assuming you are not an alt, and I am clearly better at understanding the nuances and interplay among the items in the game once you put them into practice. The people who matter already know.

You proposed that a 12-ton, 8-slot weapon get a flat upgrade to the most important characteristic of the weapon with a minor tweak to a secondary trait. Meanwhile, the 15-ton, 10-slot version of that same weapon is not exactly a shining beacon of amazing in this game, either, and it's supposed to get, what?

Remember, you are proposing that the cUAC/20 get to fire 40 damage per gun over 0.72 seconds from what will be just shy of 400 meters after the skill tree assuming only 10% gets put into range...and it will be. This is basically the old KDK-3 again at roughly half the weight and about 67% of the range.

Compare to the alternative which fires 40 damage over 0.94 seconds at only just shy of 300 meters with the same skill tree. Unless you want to dramatically cut the jam chance and/or duration on the IS one relative to the Clan one, the Clan one is now dramatically stronger in all the important ways.

I am not against buffing the cUAC/20, but your proposal in a vacuum is just stupid.

Quote

False standard. You are comparing a type of weapon with a whole class of weapon. If you compare the whole energy with the whole missile, they are matched.

Not at all,

Exactly how would you prefer I classify them? What are you calling a "type" and what are you calling a "class"? It's not my fault that all of the missiles are literally missiles and all of the ballistics are literally ballistics while not all energy weapons are literally lasers.

Never mind, though, it doesn't matter because your answer is inherently wrong. Missiles are all exceptionally low-velocity projectiles with hard range limits, ballistics are high velocity projectiles with soft range limits, and lasers are hit-scan with soft range limits. The only thing I did wrong fail to classify MGs as lasers and PPCs as ballistics.

What matters is what you, the player have to do to use these weapons. I bet even the code for my groupings is largely shared within said groupings. LRMs and Streaks and ATMs all share code, which is why Streaks benefit from the lock-on improvements from Artemis despite not having Artemis versions. They are also all similar in velocity. MRMs are the fastest missiles...but still significantly slower than the slowest ballistic (AC/20). Similarly, all lasers share code. All ballistics share code, with additional lines for charge-up on the Gauss options. The MGs are functionally lasers that use ammo.

Quote

Now tell me about PGI's "balance" regarding lasers.

It's actually fairly decent right now, with some minor caveats about how Clan Lights don't really have any good options for pure laser boats and how IS Assaults don't have any good options for the same. ER Large lasers are a bit of a can of worms, too, with IS ones only being good at a high level on select few chassis that give them Clan-like range, else Clan all the way.

Oh, and the elephant in the room that is Clan Gauss Vomit, but that gets countered by IS HGauss vomit. Different builds for different roles.

Dakka is also fairly competitive against lasers, but they obviously serve a different purpose. Missiles are by far the weakest class, but a decrease to SRM and MRM spread (especially cSRM spread) and we're most of the way back to them being top-rate choice on the right maps.

Dakka and missiles are very dominant in Solaris.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 09 May 2018 - 04:31 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Jay Leon Hart, on 09 May 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

True, but this is fantasy land, where PGI values player feedback

More that it would make it difficult for MWO's stock builds to be transferred directly to tabletop, which is part of the whole "one universe" deal they're trying to make happen here. HBS uses PGI models, Alex does tabletop book artwork, and so on.

[Angel of Annihilation]

JackalBeast, on 09 May 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

Oh man what a rabbit hole.

Its a rabbit hole because there are alot of problems with AC's.

First all UAC's got nerfed because of 1 mech, the KDK-3 which subsequently was nerfed to the point that it really doesn't need a UAC nerf to rein it in. IS UAC got wrapped up in the C-UAC simply because they came out after the UAC nerfs.

Second, CAC's are STILL a placeholder weapon that PGI just forgot about. No real attempt was made to actually make them useful and they aren't, not even in the slightest. Hell they even take up more crit slots than a C-UAC despite being vastly inferior to them and there is absolute no Battletech equivalent of them so PGI could use artistic license to their hearts content to make them useful.

Three. The Ghost heat on AC/20 and many of its variants came about when it was perceived that a 40 damage pin point alpha was too powerful. This was before we had a 50 damage pin point alpha added to the game in the form of Heavy Gauss. It is also from before the tech upgrade which added a ton of power creep to the game. The concept is now obsolete and really needs to go away. Having ghost heat triggered when using just 2 of these weapons is just too limiting anymore in the face of current builds using other weapons systems. I mean It is pretty easy to pump out 70-80 point alphas, especially with Clan weapons and while those alpha come with duration attached, even if your able to hold your lasers on a target for only part of the beam duration, your still able to apply 40-50 damage before the beams drift off targets.

So yeah, huge rabbit hole. It is pretty much time for a balance pass on ACs in the game.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 May 2018 - 05:16 AM.