23 replies to this topic

[Phoenix 72]

I am wondering about something regarding ghost heat. I know that, for example, it is fine to fire off 6 medium lasers, but shooting 7 will produce some form of ghost heat.

I am wondering how that works in regards to mixed weapons loadouts. If I have 4 MLs and 2 LLs, will using them all at once cause ghost heat? If yes, how significant is it?

I am using a laser vomit Blackjack and I also have a laser vomit Roughneck. One has 4MLs and 2LLs, the other 5 and 2. All this time, I first fired LLs, then MLs. Today, since I had heat to spare, I just used all of them together to get one nice alpha strike. And I did not see as large a spike in heat as I expected. How can find out out what the penalty for using this is and how significant it is?

Or is this actually not producing any ghost heat at all?

[Koniving]

Darakor Stormwind, on 13 May 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

I am wondering about something regarding ghost heat. I know that, for example, it is fine to fire off 6 medium lasers, but shooting 7 will produce some form of ghost heat.

I am wondering how that works in regards to mixed weapons loadouts. If I have 4 MLs and 2 LLs, will using them all at once cause ghost heat? If yes, how significant is it?

I am using a laser vomit Blackjack and I also have a laser vomit Roughneck. One has 4MLs and 2LLs, the other 5 and 2. All this time, I first fired LLs, then MLs. Today, since I had heat to spare, I just used all of them together to get one nice alpha strike. And I did not see as large a spike in heat as I expected. How can find out out what the penalty for using this is and how significant it is?

Or is this actually not producing any ghost heat at all?

Right now, it only "happens" to mixed loadouts if they are "tied". There's tied/linked categories (such as "Large" lasers of all types are linked). There's a "Medium and small" linked category.

But you can bring 3 IS large and 6 IS mediums and not get punished when firing them together.

[Koniving]

Its actually quite an issue with the system in general, because they are not linked, people work around old combinations like 5 large lasers and instead throw in 3 large lasers and 6 mediums to get a far deadlier punch at somewhat less range and quite a bit less tonnage...We call it "laser vomit" because its like rainbow vomit... So many colors.

Clans have a combination that they were going to address with a nerf that would address it by cutting the Heavy Large Laser limit to 1, reducing it from 70+ damage to 60 damage to better match the IS best combination (of range and firepower) of 60.

And people cried, and now the nerf is going away despite the fact that Clans have superior range at the cost of having to hold the target longer, and could be worked around at a measly 3.7 additional ghost heat to trump the IS again (while saving 3 tons from an old 14 ton combination, while the equivalent IS combination is 27 tons).

[WrathOfDeadguy]

There is a handy table on smurfy's showing all of the ghost heat linkings and values. No guesswork needed.

[Phoenix 72]

I was aware of the Smurfy table, but not that the ghost heat does not come into play unless the weapons share the same table. Great, it means I wasted quite some damage in the past months. /facepalm

[XViper]

I've tried to look up a number of things on Ghost Heat, and while I think I mostly understand it, there's one thing I'm still unsure about.

Is Ghost Heat only for 'Alpha' strikes? or is it X number of weapons within a particular time frame?

Ie. If I fire 7 ML's individually (chain-fire) all within 1 second by spamming my mouse button, do I get ghost heat?

Do the weapon groupings have anything to do with it?

Thanks

Edited by XViper, 13 May 2018 - 11:46 PM.

[BTGbullseye]

XViper, on 13 May 2018 - 11:46 PM, said:

I've tried to look up a number of things on Ghost Heat, and while I think I mostly understand it, there's one thing I'm still unsure about.

Is Ghost Heat only for 'Alpha' strikes? or is it X number of weapons within a particular time frame?

Ie. If I fire 7 ML's individually (chain-fire) all within 1 second by spamming my mouse button, do I get ghost heat?

Do the weapon groupings have anything to do with it?

Thanks

Alpha/grouping doesn't directly affect ghost heat.

If you fire before the firing cycle + 0.5 seconds, then they are counted towards the ghost heat limit. For most lasers, just add 0.5 sec to the burn duration to determine when you can fire the next group to prevent ghost heat. For ballistics, it's variable based on the number of projectile firings they do. (Clan UAC-10 and -20 have 3 and 4 shot bursts, and you have to add the 0.5 sec to after the last round is fired, not from when you pull the trigger)

[XViper]

Thanks Bullseye.

So if I had 7 ML's, I'd need to wait over 0.5 seconds between the 6th and 7th shot, to avoid the ghost heat?

[BTGbullseye]

Yes. The default burn time for an IS Medium Laser is 0.9s, so you would have to wait 1.4 seconds after initiating firing of the first 6 to be able to fire the 7th without ghost heat.

There is someone on here that has a debate about this, (despite my numerous tests of it) and thinks it's 0.5 sec from the time you pull the trigger, so you might want to test it yourself.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 14 May 2018 - 02:08 AM.

[XViper]

Thanks dude.

How do you test it exactly?
There doesn't seem to be any obvious indicator to know when you're actually generating ghost heat.

Other than trying to guess at how much heat % you generate in each scenario. But when you're talking about a number of delayed shots, I can't imagine that is easy to simulate.

And just to confirm.

If I was to shoot 7 lasers, all 0.5s apart (default chain fire?), the 7th would still generate the ghost heat, because it considers the first 6 all part of the same 'heat group', even though the first 6 shots are over a duration of 3 seconds?

Sorry for all the questions, it's not one of the more 'opaque' mechanics in the game.

Edited by XViper, 14 May 2018 - 02:13 AM.

[BTGbullseye]

XViper, on 14 May 2018 - 02:10 AM, said:

How do you test it exactly?
There doesn't seem to be any obvious indicator to know when you're actually generating ghost heat.

Other than trying to guess at how much heat % you generate in each scenario. But when you're talking about a number of delayed shots, I can't imagine that is easy to simulate.

It takes a little bit to figure it exact, but there is a mathematical standard for the heat values in the game, I just don't remember them off the top of my head.

Easiest way to test ghost heat in useful terms is to go into the Academy, and set 3 firing groups...

Group 1 has the maximum number of weapons from that type that you can fire without ghost heat.
Group 2 has however many weapons you want to test for the ghost heat amount.
Group 3 has both group 1 and 2.

Fire 1, and find out what percentage it takes you to.
Fire 2, and find out what percentage it takes you to.
Add those percentages together for the base heat percentage.
Fire 3, and find out what percentage it takes you to.
Subtract the base heat percentage from the result of group 3 test firing, and you get the ghost heat.

XViper, on 14 May 2018 - 02:10 AM, said:

If I was to shoot 7 lasers, all 0.5s apart (default chain fire?), the 7th would still generate the ghost heat, because it considers the first 6 all part of the same 'heat group', even though the first 6 shots are over a duration of 3 seconds?

No, it would only count the ones that are currently firing, or inside the 0.5 sec window from the first shot as being linked with it. Same with the second shot. If the maximum number of lasers that fall within that range is less than the maximum limit, then it doesn't give ghost heat. (I just reread what I typed here, and I don't even understand it)

0.0s Medium Laser 1 - Fired. 1 weapons in GH queue, 1 will leave in 1.4 sec.
0.5s Medium Laser 2 - Fired. 2 weapons in GH queue, 1 will leave in 0.9 sec, 1 will leave in 1.4 sec.
1.0s Medium Laser 3 - Fired. 3 weapons in GH queue, 1 will leave in 0.4 sec, 1 will leave in 0.9 sec, 1 will leave in 1.4 sec.
1.5s Medium Laser 4 - Fired. 3 weapons in GH queue, 1 will leave in 0.4 sec, 1 will leave in 0.9 sec, 1 will leave in 1.4 sec. Medium Laser 1 has left the GH queue.

As you can see, it won't actually exceed 3 in the queue if fired at exact 0.5 sec intervals.

XViper, on 14 May 2018 - 02:10 AM, said:

Sorry for all the questions, it's not one of the more 'opaque' mechanics in the game.

Questions are how you learn, don't apologise for asking them in a forum specifically designed for it. lol

And yes, very much not an obvious or easily understood mechanic.

[XViper]

You've explained it perfectly.

Thank you so much.

[Tarl Cabot]

Technically, it is 0.5sec after one set of linked weapons have been fired but a few players have had issues with it, but not enough info has been gathered and/or forwarded to PGI, or if it is something that is not on PGI end but the player's system/location. I am not going to debate it or speculate much on why BTGbullseye has problems with it in this thread. Nor has PGI coding been perfect concerning Ghost Heat. Do a search for Kodiak and its UAC10, ie GH was NOT being applied correctly, making one of the Kodiak variants a monster to deal with for awhile due to a bug that had been in play from the beginning, but there was not a mech that could EFFECTIVELY make use of them..

You can always tests it on the Practice Grounds or get a friend and drop in a private match. The main difference is ping and waiting server authentication. Some issues can not be replicated in the Practice Grounds because the problem is noisy connection and server authentication. But that is not here nor there..

For BTGbullseye, I would assumed he had tested his problem on the Practice Grounds except that was never asked about or had he mentioned it, afaik.. I will note that the one mech I have utilized that 0.5sec rule with has been the Battlemaster. 1-G, as the difference between firing 3 then 3 isERLL without GH vs 6 isERLL with GH is dramatic.

Introduced in 2013 - Clarification from Paul

https://mwomercs.com...e__pid__2575376

Quote

First, a little clarification:

- You do not have to wait for a weapon's cooldown cycle to fire again to avoid heat scale. The amount of time you have to wait is 0.5 seconds.
- The heat scale is a curve. The multiplier provided in the previous chart move that curve up and down on a graph (which will be detailed below).

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 May 2018 - 03:54 AM.

[Koniving]

1.4 seconds? o.O;

Where did you get 1.4 seconds? I'm not seeing a beam time that long.

(Note: All weapons leave the queue at >0.6 seconds [this is because firing one short of the limit and in less than 0.5 seconds firing the next on a chain fire following the one after you'll trigger ghost heat as the previous ones didn't leave the queue, that happens usually at 0.51 seconds to 0.55 seconds], regardless of beam time, burst duration, or missile volley length. At least this was the case of 2013 and I seriously doubt anything has changed since then in this regard.)

The trick is the queue doesn't stop counting until 0.51 seconds has passed. (The chain fire macro is queued at 0.5 seconds, but it isn't immediately active, there's still the delay in activation "Sleep time has ended? Yes. Is button pressed? Yes. Apply function: Fire next weapon in queue. Check ID current weapon X. Fire X. Set next weapon Y to current weapon X. Sleep.<--As instant as it may seem it isn't really instant, and then that command has to be sent to the server and altogether you get that extra bit of time. Also note you can skip a weapon in the queue by pressing backspace twice on that weapon group. This is because it does another inquiry to check next weapon and set it to current.)

I could understand boosting the time we assume its in queue due to the fact that it won't forget how many are fired until exactly 0.5 seconds has transpired, but... where did 1.4 seconds come from?

(As such, if you fire 0.25 seconds.. And have a queue of 6...
Fire 1. 1 in queue.
0.25 seconds fire 1. 2 in queue.
0.25 seconds fire 1. 3 in queue.
0.25 seconds fire 1. 4 in queue.
0.25 seconds fire 1. 5 in queue.
0.25 seconds fire 1. 6 in queue...
And it keeps building. (Trust me, I had a LOT of problems getting AC/2 macros to work around the ghost heat and the trick is 501 milliseconds.)
Fire 5. 5 in queue.
0.5(ish) seconds online (or 0.51 seconds offline). 5 left the queue. Fire 1. 1 in queue.

(AC/2s once had ghost heat, they don't anymore.)

Edited by Koniving, 14 May 2018 - 03:50 AM.

[XViper]

He got 1.4s from 0.5s+0.9s (duration of ML)

ER-LL would be 1.6s (1.1s duration)

That's at least how I understood it.

@Koniving: So are you saying that weapons STAY in the queue if you keep shooting too soon?

E.g. What if you had 7 ML's, and shot them 0.49s apart? Would ghost heat be generated on the 7th shot, because they've all 'built up' since then?

@Tarl: Thanks for that link. I'm having a read now.

Edited by XViper, 14 May 2018 - 04:09 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

XViper, on 14 May 2018 - 03:57 AM, said:

He got 1.4s from 0.5s+0.9s (duration of ML)

ER-LL would be 1.6s (1.1s duration)

That's at least how I understood it.

@Koniving: So are you saying that weapons STAY in the queue if you keep shooting too soon?

E.g. What if you had 7 ML's, and shot them 0.49s apart? Would ghost heat be generated on the 7th shot, because they've all 'built up' since then?

That is correct in that they stay in the "queue" for 0.5sec. You could chain fire them and if all 7 are fired before that 0.5sec GH is triggered.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 May 2018 - 04:12 AM.

[The Schwartz]

There's another trick that clanners use. The firing duration of an c/erML and the fireing duration of a c/Mpulse or HLL and LPL match so that you fire the er first and wait .5 sec fire the pulse and you effectively have the end of the firing duration making an alpha strike anyways. It can be a little trickier with IS stuffs because of the quirks that make some lasers ungodly fast while others are normal. Basically you're just matching durations with ghost heat .5sec included so like 2erll and 2lpl you'd fire the 2erll wait.. fire the 2lpl.. and they should stop firing at the same time(or very close to it) without ghost heat.

[BTGbullseye]

Really, the best thing to do is to go in and test for yourself...

I just wish PGI would post exactly what the ghost heat system actually does, and when. That way we can tell if it's my mechs that are bugged, or others.

[Tarl Cabot]

The link I posted was a clarification by PGI. I am doubtful it is your mechs/account but most likely about your system and/or connectivity. Have you done a full Integrity Check of the game?

I would go as far as suggest making an alt account w/different email address but realized the trial mechs are not setup to trigger GH.

If you would start a thread in either the workaround and provide us with more info, or email PGI directly, with both system info, ISP, location while also detailing if it occurs in the Testing Grounds/Academy as well as the Live game every time.

Are you still on the 3 year old laptop with a GT630m in it running 25-35 FPS? Power Options set to High Performance and dust being cleaned out of the heatsink (not mech ones.. : ) )

Just for giggles, start the game. Once in, bring up Task Manager, Details tab, select MWOclient and change priority to High and test. If no change then change to Realtime and test.

Also, do you have a user.cfg file and a FPS limit in it?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 May 2018 - 07:34 PM.

[BTGbullseye]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 May 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

The link I posted was a clarification by PGI.

Cooldown =/= burn time... They clarified very little there.

Also, yes... Still on the same system. Recently updated the CFG, and removed the startup videos. Recently performed an integrity check as well. Priority and IO Priority are both set to "High" permanently, as well as Affinity set to all 4 cores. (I use Process Hacker) I keep my system well maintained at all times. (have better than 20 years of professional computer repair experience under my belt, as well as a rather prodigious waistline unfortunately) Heck, I even have explorer.exe running on my GPU instead of the integrated, despite that supposedly not being "possible" with Optimus systems.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 14 May 2018 - 07:55 PM.