51 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Koniving, on 13 May 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

I mean we could keep ramping up the power and damage of everything...
But for ballistics to compete, we need to be able to do 70 damage alphas... and to boost IS laser alphas by 10 damage to even be able to have a chance of competing with the dominant 70 alpha of the Clans.

And that's not getting into the even bigger alphas...

There's more to all this than just flat alpha strike numbers. Effective damage is an important factor and reasons why PPFLD remains effective even when putting out half the damage of high alpha laser builds.

For example, to make people *feel* better Clan alpha strikes could be reduced by 20% (78 damage down to about 62) and their duration and heat could also be reduced by 20%. (1.25 second ERML to 1 second, 1.55 HLL to 1.24). This would lower their alpha strikes, which would serve to help mostly unaware pilots, as a single alpha doesn't devastate them (but the second one does) while at higher level play Clan remains competitive with IS in trades as their damage per tick doesn't plummet.

It basically solves the perceived problem that stems from people mostly just being afraid of big numbers regardless of their effectiveness.

[Xetelian]

Koniving, on 13 May 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

I mean we could keep ramping up the power and damage of everything...
But for ballistics to compete, we need to be able to do 70 damage alphas... and to boost IS laser alphas by 10 damage to even be able to have a chance of competing with the dominant 70 alpha of the Clans.

And that's not getting into the even bigger alphas...

You honestly think that ballistics which can be fired multiple times in 10 seconds without overheating, needs to be at 70 damage to compete with a laser alpha that can only be fired once in 10 seconds and creates so much heat that it can't be fired more than 2 times in 20 seconds without taking an additional 10-15 seconds to cool off? Now with a cool shot they can fire once more but that's a different topic.


Stand still for twenty seconds in an HBR while my 3xUAC5 JM6 DD fires on the CT (if they don't all roll jams over and over). Or a 3xUAC2 DRG or a two RAC5 RFL.


There is a reason you don't see a lot of laser vomit in 1v1, to excel it requires the use of cover and not being the focus of attention, which is why the ECM HBR is such a good combo right now, it can hide well and peak quickly and hide again.



Does power creep even apply to buffing things to increase their presence in a meta? I thought power creep was the introduction of something more powerful than the current meta, something new, not the relative increases in power to change the meta of a game.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Xetelian, on 13 May 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

Does power creep even apply to buffing things to increase their presence in a meta? I thought power creep was the introduction of something more powerful than the current meta, something new, not the relative increases in power to change the meta of a game.

This is what a lot of people don't understand. They assume that things being buffed is powercreep, as they assume powercreep is the increase in power on average, but in reality powercreep is usually a slow increase in the power ceiling while the lowest stay where they are, creating a larger disparity between the top and bottom builds. Bringing low builds up to high build standards actually neutralizes powercreep, as the numbers themselves become bigger, yet due to the floor being raised the disparity actually shrinks. This means that a game that constantly raises the stats across the board doesn't actually move anything as builds still have no net gains or losses compared to eachother.

[PocketYoda]

TTK is already too fast, way to fast nerfing clan lasers was right but the try hards got mad and the company caves..

No reason to come back to this game looking at all those terrible patch notes..

Edited by Samial, 13 May 2018 - 08:21 PM.

[Seranov]

Samial, on 13 May 2018 - 08:20 PM, said:

TTK is already too fast, way to fast nerfing clan lasers was right but the try hards got mad and the company caves..

No reason to come back to this game looking at all those terrible patch notes..

TTK is fine unless you stare at your enemies and never twist, or regularly wander into enemy firing lines, or wander the hell off from your team into places you can't sit your back against a wall. In both IS and Clan mechs, in pretty much any possible build. Pilot skill, positioning and critical thinking accounts for a lot.

[Vellron2005]

Xetelian, on 11 May 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

SRMs have taken quite a few nerfings.

Ballistics are still hot and jam all the time.

There has got to be a way to make these better and able to compete with laser vomit instead of just making laser vomit worse.

Buffing well preforming weapons to compete with over-performing weapons would only lower TTK.. so.. no.

[Mystere]

Koniving, on 13 May 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

I mean we could keep ramping up the power and damage of everything...
But for ballistics to compete, we need to be able to do 70 damage alphas... and to boost IS laser alphas by 10 damage to even be able to have a chance of competing with the dominant 70 alpha of the Clans.

And that's not getting into the even bigger alphas...

Given the PPFLD nature of IS ballistics, I don't think they need to match the 70-point alpha of Clan laser boats. The same could be argued with regard to the lower-duration IS lasers.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 14 May 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

Given the PPFLD nature of IS ballistics, I don't think they need to match the 70-point alpha of Clan laser boats. The same could be argued with regard to the lower-duration IS lasers.

The disparity in damage is a problem for Assaults, which are nigh universally too sluggish to spread the damage. So both eat the whole volley, but one eats ~52-55 while the other eats ~64-78. Even if the IS one can begin twisting first, it doesn't matter because the Clan volley did the same damage in that short time. That's just extra damage opening up other components for later targeting should the primary become unavailable.

Ballistics are different. Ballistics need to be able to tap out similar amounts of damage in similar amounts of time to really be competitve. But...they don't need to do it in one shot. That's just ridiculously powerful.

[YueFei]

Three suggestions about TTK:

• Buff mech agility. Skillful defense can increase TTK. Passively staring down people will still get you killed fast, and it should. Even feels like lore, where pilots scatter their hits across multiple body parts not because they are cross-eyed derps who can't aim, but because their targets are maneuvering and twisting.
  
• Scale mechs down smaller for Kerensky's sake.
  
• Introduce true weapon impact effects, instead of mere cosmetic screen shake (which doesn't alter your point of aim), ala Mechwarrior 3 and Mechwarrior 4. It introduces an element of mind games, anticipation, and timing that's reminiscent of fighting games. This gives missiles and ballistics an edge over lasers because of the sharp impulse, so that even without having to twist away you can disrupt a laser burn and cause it to splash/spread over your own mech.

Edited by YueFei, 14 May 2018 - 10:16 PM.

[Xetelian]

People saying that everyone (the tryhards) whined too much would do the same whining if they made it 1 Large Laser and 4 Medium lasers for their mechs too. Time to kill can be raised in other ways without making 20+ stock builds invalidated.

[PocketYoda]

Xetelian, on 14 May 2018 - 10:50 PM, said:

People saying that everyone (the tryhards) whined too much would do the same whining if they made it 1 Large Laser and 4 Medium lasers for their mechs too. Time to kill can be raised in other ways without making 20+ stock builds invalidated.

How can you stop laser boating clan mechs if you don't nerf lasers... heat sinks maybe.. its still a bandaid on the real gash wound.

[Xetelian]

Samial, on 15 May 2018 - 12:45 AM, said:

How can you stop laser boating clan mechs if you don't nerf lasers... heat sinks maybe.. its still a bandaid on the real gash wound.

I've suggested nerfs, take .5 or 1 whole point of damage off the ERML and take 2 damage off the HLL and you've reduced the meta HBR damage by 8 damage, which for its duration and heat is a lot less damage and makes it a lot closer to IS laser alphas.



Ghost Heat is the worst way of balancing weapons, you can't even double tap your UAC20 quickly but they still have 3 bullets and low velocity. Which is why few people bring them.


There are much better ways to lower the meta laser alpha without making it so you can only fire 4 ERML at a time.

[Variant1]

Srms where way to good back the, splatcats could core you out in one volley. Maybe 1 buff here and there. For those that dont want spread should get artemis anyways now it is useful

Balistics are okay, ac2 might need some range buff. Other than that the only hot ones are the heavy ones since they pack a huge punch.

Lazors do need a nerf, they perform too well. Im not saying they should be bad but the trade for lazers should be high heat for infinite ammo, which a whole lot of lazer boats seem to not have a problem with. Weapon quirks like heat gen need to be removed same with heat gen nodes. Once those nodes are removed and better data comes then can lazers get proper balancing.

[MischiefSC]

Because ballistics and missiles have already largely replaced lasers everywhere but ERLL overwatch?

[Mcgral18]

Vellron2005, on 14 May 2018 - 12:55 AM, said:

Buffing well preforming weapons to compete with over-performing weapons would only lower TTK.. so.. no.

No, you buff them to Performing weapons
You buff Underperforming Weapons, and nerf Over Performing weapons


See the Small Laser debacle

A reasonable person would have chosen a nice baseline, such as the cERSL. A useful weapon, which was not always taken, but was not too weak
The cSPL was too good, and did need a nerf (not a 33% nerf)
The Spheroid small lasers were all terrible and in dire need of buffs (you could safely say 33+% buffs, in different areas)


PGI instead decided to use the Spheroid Small class as a balance baseline
You know, the absolute worst weapon in the game, to be used as a baseline


That was a mistake

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 14 May 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

The disparity in damage is a problem for Assaults, which are nigh universally too sluggish to spread the damage. So both eat the whole volley, but one eats ~52-55 while the other eats ~64-78. Even if the IS one can begin twisting first, it doesn't matter because the Clan volley did the same damage in that short time. That's just extra damage opening up other components for later targeting should the primary become unavailable.

Ballistics are different. Ballistics need to be able to tap out similar amounts of damage in similar amounts of time to really be competitve. But...they don't need to do it in one shot. That's just ridiculously powerful.

Side note -

Clan AC10s have gotten stealth buffed over the last year and are, situationally, very good now. Put 2 on a HBKIIC with w cermls. Max velocity nodes. You can poptart with it - it's like double peeps but almost heat free and cycles in 2 seconds. If someone's in the open you've got the cermls for it.

Swap out the lb10xs on a KDK3 for 4xac10s. Sure it's got ghost heat - 0.96 pts of ghost heat for 4 at once. Who even bothered to put that in? Putting all 40 pts in one location is way bettee than LBX. Finding the AC10s often a better choice than peeps or double gauss for overwatch or mid to long trading. Takes a bit of getting used to but skilled up the 3 round burst is 0.2 seconds long.

Just not seeing anything like the same amount of lasers in MRBC this season. A lot of UACs. A lot of doubled up LBKs too. Its still mostly Clan mechs (except for Bushies drop 1, cuz pocket assault) but Clan ballistics and splat are more common.

[Ghogiel]

A lot of ballistics are already top tier comp viable and pug farmable. UAC5s and 10s are already good. AC2s are one of the best. Gauss, still good. RAC2s just got a buff.

What we talking about?AC20s and rac5 completely exclusively and not "ballistics"?

[PocketYoda]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 13 May 2018 - 06:09 PM, said:

There's more to all this than just flat alpha strike numbers. Effective damage is an important factor and reasons why PPFLD remains effective even when putting out half the damage of high alpha laser builds.

For example, to make people *feel* better Clan alpha strikes could be reduced by 20% (78 damage down to about 62) and their duration and heat could also be reduced by 20%. (1.25 second ERML to 1 second, 1.55 HLL to 1.24). This would lower their alpha strikes, which would serve to help mostly unaware pilots, as a single alpha doesn't devastate them (but the second one does) while at higher level play Clan remains competitive with IS in trades as their damage per tick doesn't plummet.

It basically solves the perceived problem that stems from people mostly just being afraid of big numbers regardless of their effectiveness.

62 damage alpha still devastates anything medium or light even if it doesn't kill some thing in one hit the mech is still useless for the rest of the game.. one more hit and its dead..

TTK is stupid even at 62 damage alphas.. and its not very accurate to BT

Edited by Samial, 19 May 2018 - 05:06 PM.

[Xetelian]

Ghogiel, on 19 May 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

A lot of ballistics are already top tier comp viable and pug farmable. UAC5s and 10s are already good. AC2s are one of the best. Gauss, still good. RAC2s just got a buff. What we talking about?AC20s and rac5 completely exclusively and not "ballistics"?

Have you tried taking just one UAC5 or just one UAC10? And the UAC20 is garbage since you can't double tap it.

Just because they're top tier when you boat them with 3 or more doesn't mean they're good.

[ANOM O MECH]

Seems they are pretty set on balancing around the worst players who think lurms are OP.

This makes about as much sense as applying t-ball rules to the MLB, but hey, do you want to buy a mech pack?

By the way if you do, those same folks are probably going to pressure PGI to ruin it.