61 replies to this topic

[Luminis]

BTGbullseye, on 12 May 2018 - 01:07 AM, said:

When did they change it? I tried last night, and it had to be after the fire duration for CMPL on a Cougar...

It's been that way forever.

You sure you're not confusing the doubled heat buildup that's occurring naturally with a GH spike?

[Vonbach]

Mortalcoil, on 11 May 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

People are talking like it's impossible to equip more than 4 ERML's and 1 HLL. You know you can just stagger the laser fire. If that's too hard, just download fire control or use a programmable mouse and it will do the stagger for you. Yeah, the effective duration will be longer, but it's not like it's impossible to equip the lasers anymore. We can overcome this nerf and be better for it.

Yeah no kidding clans might have to learn basic skills like weapon groups, oh the tragedy.

[SmokedJag]

The problem with stagger fire is how far they reduced the threshold. Accidentally or deliberately/desperation messing up a stagger is not that big a deal if the consequence is going over by 1 on the combination weapons group or the weapons themselves are cool enough (missiles). It will limit your DPS for a while or graze a shutdown.

However, if you risk going over by 2 or more the penalties escalate quickly. They stack and they grow. Usually adding a cERML is 6.3 heat, with the 7th adding 13.36, so ~ 7 penalty heat. The 8th adds 16, 9 of which are penalty and make a 4+4 stagger fire under the current rules 54.20 if done correctly and 67.16 if messed up. New system firing 4+4: 54.20 if done correctly and *four* penalized lasers mean with penalties escalating and compounding are ~ 100 (exact value doesn't matter, heat scale exceeded even from zero).

Setting penalty free to 4, 4, and 3 (the heavies) makes a huge difference.

And the HLL being limited to one pretty much says don't use it. It's already linked with the other large lasers so you can't even mix it.

Edited by SmokedJag, 12 May 2018 - 05:15 AM.

[Luminis]

Vonbach, on 12 May 2018 - 04:37 AM, said:

Yeah no kidding clans might have to learn basic skills like weapon groups, oh the tragedy.

Maybe y'all ought to lay off that "clan vs IS" mentality for a second because not all of us are die-hard faction loyalists that only play one side 99% of the time. My skills don't suddenly deteriorate because my HUD is blue instead of yellow.

[BTGbullseye]

Luminis, on 12 May 2018 - 01:18 AM, said:

It's been that way forever.

You sure you're not confusing the doubled heat buildup that's occurring naturally with a GH spike?

WTF are you talking about? I fired 6x cMPL with no problem (about 50% of my heat cap) and fired 1 more exactly at 600ms after, and ghost heat for 7x cMPL occured. This was using a macro to make absolutely certain about the timing. When set to exactly 1ms less than the burn time + 500ms, it caused ghost heat reliably. When set to 5ms after burn time + 500ms, no ghost heat ever occured.

Go ahead and test it for yourself, but quit calling me a liar when I tested it less than 2 days ago.

[Luminis]

BTGbullseye, on 12 May 2018 - 05:15 AM, said:

WTF are you talking about? I fired 6x cMPL with no problem (about 50% of my heat cap) and fired 1 more exactly at 600ms after, and ghost heat for 7x cMPL occured. This was using a macro to make absolutely certain about the timing. When set to exactly 1ms less than the burn time + 500ms, it caused ghost heat reliably. When set to 5ms after burn time + 500ms, no ghost heat ever occured.

Go ahead and test it for yourself, but quit calling me a liar when I tested it less than 2 days ago.

Dude, I didn't call you a liar, I suggested you might have made a mistake. And I just tested it, I can most certainly fire a second weapon group without incurring ghost heat while the first set of lasers has not finished its burn.

Here you can see 9 MLs burning at the same time, not incurring GH because they've been fired with a .5s stagger:



And here you can see what happens if you don't, you immediately get bumped up to 50+% heat:

[BTGbullseye]

Then it appears that either all of my 7E+ mechs are bugged, or yours are, because I also have a HBR-Prime that performs identically, and always has.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 12 May 2018 - 05:39 AM.

[Djinnhammer]

Viktor Drake, on 11 May 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

Yeah all that is much more important than much cooler, faster firing, lower beam duration weapons, that concentrate damage much more effectively and efficiently, not to mention that requires less face time before being able to duck and cover. Oh and lets not forget all that extra armor and structure Clan weapons have to chew through when engaging those darn inferior IS mechs, that stuff is meaningless in the face of superior clan tech. Also all that locked structure and armor crits, fixed engine sizes, fixed JJs, and in some cases fixed heat sinks and wasted heat sink slots inside of engines that clan omnimechs have to deal with is just meaningless in the face of being able to shift a laser from the right arm to the left arm on those mechs. Why the Clans have got it so good that all of them should be given negative quirks just to knock them down to the low, low levels of inferior tech IS pilots have to deal with. I mean it is just so obvious how great Clan mechs are, why has it taken them so long???

/Thread. This guy gets it.

[Mystere]

Vonbach, on 12 May 2018 - 04:37 AM, said:

Yeah no kidding clans might have to learn basic skills like weapon groups, oh the tragedy.

You do realize that those faction tags displayed below people's names on the forums are just game artifacts and are not a lifestyle choice, right? Or that people can and do own Mechs from both sides, right?

But maybe it's different for you?

Edited by Mystere, 12 May 2018 - 05:47 AM.

[Vonbach]

Mystere, on 12 May 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

You do realize that those faction tags displayed below people's names on the forums are just game assets and are not a lifestyle choice, right? Or that people can and do own Mechs from both sides, right?

But maybe it's different for you?

So what so do I. I have clan mechs for when my guild goes clan on occasion. Guess what I actually use different builds than H laser vomit when I do.

Edited by Vonbach, 12 May 2018 - 05:49 AM.

[oldradagast]

Promessa, on 11 May 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

STand in front of me and fire your lasers for 2 full seconds and see how that turns out

I do find it amusing. "Noobs" are constantly reminded of the importance of cover and not using weapons that take forever to apply damage, such as RAC's and MRM's. Now, Clan lasers are heavily nerfed and we've got "good" players saying how you should just stand there, holding down the button, while slowly applying damage to the enemy in a silly attempt to justify the changes and "skill-shame" people who are pointing out the problem.

If RAC's and MRM's are not competitive (which they generally are not), than neither are "laser RAC's" where the Clan has to chain fire his lasers to slowly apply damage.

Edited by oldradagast, 12 May 2018 - 06:31 AM.

[Humpday]

Viktor Drake, on 11 May 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

Yeah all that is much more important than much cooler, faster firing, lower beam duration weapons, that concentrate damage much more effectively and efficiently, not to mention that requires less face time before being able to duck and cover. Oh and lets not forget all that extra armor and structure Clan weapons have to chew through when engaging those darn inferior IS mechs, that stuff is meaningless in the face of superior clan tech. Also all that locked structure and armor crits, fixed engine sizes, fixed JJs, and in some cases fixed heat sinks and wasted heat sink slots inside of engines that clan omnimechs have to deal with is just meaningless in the face of being able to shift a laser from the right arm to the left arm on those mechs. Why the Clans have got it so good that all of them should be given negative quirks just to knock them down to the low, low levels of inferior tech IS pilots have to deal with. I mean it is just so obvious how great Clan mechs are, why has it taken them so long???

Clans are going to have trouble with this. You cannot safely stagger fire c-meds and above, they simply burn way too long and you're too squishy to expose yourself for a full 2.5+ seconds. That's a long time to be staring at someone without the ability to twist off damage. Not to mention your burn time is now effectively 2.5 seconds lol. Good luck trying to stagger fire that and focus a component while he's twisting.

I'm sad that this will break my 10mpl exe and 9mpl EBJ as both those utilized staggering. But they brought the GH limit so low you have to have 3 groupings to avoid the heat. TBH though, I think the EBJ can pull off the 4,5 stagger and just eat the heat. The EXE will have more issue since you'll GH twice in any 2 group.

Overall, I don't mind it. And all my builds never boat energy as it's too hot and slow for my play style. And the stagger fire play style is already learned for me due to c-mpls and heavy gauss.

I dunno why they did that to the Heavy larges though. I thought 2 was a perfectly good place for it since just 2 of those create tremendous heat.

Anyway, you can blame the people the built the things like the HBK-IICs that can spit out a 70pt alpha at 50ton.

Edited by Humpday, 12 May 2018 - 07:51 AM.

[Mortalcoil]

BTGbullseye, on 11 May 2018 - 11:20 PM, said:

Go test it yourself if you don't believe me... Firing before the burn time completes + 500ms results in ghost heat on all my laser vomit builds.

I already have. You are wrong.

[Y E O N N E]

BTGbullseye, on 12 May 2018 - 05:39 AM, said:

Then it appears that either all of my 7E+ mechs are bugged, or yours are, because I also have a HBR-Prime that performs identically, and always has.

Set your macro to 501 ms.

[LordBraxton]

Oh noes, IS has 'superior' laser vomit on mechs with ******** engines, ******** internal structure, oversized heat sinks and shorter range!!!

Clans might not be objectively better in every way now!!?!?

The only issue with this nerf is that it effects the ****** clan mechs more than the OP ones. Top mechs in the game will still be clans.

[Y E O N N E]

LordBraxton, on 12 May 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

The only issue with this nerf is that it effects the ****** clan mechs more than the OP ones. Top mechs in the game will still be clans.

Doubtful, considering the BLR-1G was already the top ERLL boat, the WLF is the top energy Light, and IS energy Heavies now have larger alphas with less face-time and more armor.

Only the mediums give me pause, and only because IS mediums have a hard time cracking 40 damage at 400 meters without running obnoxiously hot. But then again, I would choose 40 damage at 0. 765 seconds over 50 damage at 1.215 seconds every day.

[Luminis]

LordBraxton, on 12 May 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Clans might not be objectively better in every way now!!?!?

If you want to invoke an air of objectivity, I'd argue that blatant hyperbole isn't helpful.

Even the mighty Deathstrike, the one Mech in the game that I've claimed to be on the verge of being P2W, has its shortcomings compared to numerous IS Mechs.

Seriously, this forum would be twice as fun if people stopped this nonsensical "us vs. them" narrative regarding made up factions in a video game.

Edited by Luminis, 12 May 2018 - 08:44 AM.

[Mortalcoil]

Luminis, on 12 May 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

If you want to invoke an air of objectivity, I'd argue that blatant hyperbole isn't helpful.

Even the mighty Deathstrike, the one Mech in the game that I've claimed to be on the verge of being P2W, has its shortcomings compared to numerous IS Mechs.

Seriously, this forum would be twice as fun if people stopped this nonsensical "us vs. them" narrative regarding made up factions in a video game.

Real quick, could you please tell me how many clan mechs were used in 2017 world championships, and then tell me how many IS mechs were used in the world championships?

[Y E O N N E]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

Real quick, could you please tell me how many clan mechs were used in 2017 world championships, and then tell me how many IS mechs were used in the world championships?

IS regulars:
Battlemaster*
Wolfhound*
Assassin

Clan Regulars:
Night Gyr*
Supernova*
Marauder IIC*
Warhawk
Summoner
Hunchback IIC*
Huntsman
Mist Lynx
Arctic Cheetah


* Denotes usage as laser boat

Or did you want the pie chart showing frequency? That's floating around here, somewhere. It's overwhelmingly Clan.

[Luminis]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

Real quick, could you please tell me how many clan mechs were used in 2017 world championships, and then tell me how many IS mechs were used in the world championships?

You do know what "in every way" and "objectively" mean, right? Being superior <> "objectively better in every way"

Granted, I honestly don't expect any interest in something that resembles objectivity, so why bother, I guess. People just seem happy to stroke it because "they" got nerf'd.

As an aside, real quick: Could you please tell me how many balance changes, including nerfs / buffs to the Mechs relevant in MWOWC17 we've had since?