42 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

oldradagast, on 12 May 2018 - 06:18 AM, said:

Valid point. They are making random decisions faster now!

That being said, the "problem" with the ANH is not that it is too good: the other options are just junk. Atlas can't boat except missiles (which only work in brawls and... LRM Atlas, lol), and King Crab is big and fragile and can't use some ballistics options because they are in the arms. Banshees used just to be terrible because they were laughably fragile for their tonnage, particularly in the center torso; admittedly, they are getting a small buff now, but 3 years too late.

Yes, I think Atlas should get back some of its former twisting/accel/decel capability. I also think PGI will make a killing, if they release an Atlas with ballistics on more than one location. KGC is not really fragile though, thanks to its good amount of armor quirks. It is just not as tanky as an Anni, mostly due to the hitbox differences. Banshees are laughable, yes, which is a shame, as BNC-3M used to be top tier.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 May 2018 - 06:38 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 12 May 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

I counter you with MCII. It is not tanky but sure is deadly. If you make it super tanky as well, it will become OP.

MCII is, for its class, relatively mobile. And deadly. That's the third component out of three. A mech must have the two of any kind to be good.
Mauler with the same mobility/armor as MCII is not as good because it lacks deadliness. NTG with somewhat the same deadliness is bad because it lacks armor and royally sucks in mobility and etc.

That's why if Annihilator or Fafnir's armor quirks ever nerfed too hard, they will become bleak and unremarkable assaults no one plays. Like the direwolf is now.

[Y E O N N E]

Eh, I think you've inverted your Mauler example. It's plenty deadly, it just doesn't have the mobility or sufficient armor for its shape/size/mobility.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 12 May 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

MCII is, for its class, relatively mobile. And deadly. That's the third component out of three. A mech must have the two of any kind to be good.
Mauler with the same mobility/armor as MCII is not as good because it lacks deadliness. NTG with somewhat the same deadliness is bad because it lacks armor and royally sucks in mobility and etc.

That's why if Annihilator or Fafnir's armor quirks ever nerfed too hard, they will become bleak and unremarkable assaults no one plays. Like the direwolf is now.

Except Mauler is still a good FP mech, and it is still deadly with either 6xclass 2 ACs, or HGRs. If the Mauler wasn't good then top players from KCom would not be using it. Also, do not forget that Anni-1A is not nerfed, and it has five ballistic slots.

Yeonne Greene, on 12 May 2018 - 06:53 AM, said:

Eh, I think you've inverted your Mauler example. It's plenty deadly, it just doesn't have the mobility or sufficient armor for its shape/size/mobility.

Mauler partially mitigates its lack of durability with its ballistic high mounts.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 May 2018 - 06:57 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 12 May 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

Mauler partially mitigates its lack of durability with its ballistic high mounts.

Sort of high. While they are in a similar place as the WHM, the MAL is overall bigger so the extra material between them and the top of the 'Mech is greater.

But it's really only the MX90 that can claim this. The MAL-2P's lasers drag a bit so anything other than 2x HGauss leaves a lot of the firepower down low...and there are way better 'Mechs for 2x HGauss. It's a shame, too, because classic Gauss Vomit would otherwise be quite decent on the MAL-2P.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 May 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

Sort of high. While they are in a similar place as the WHM, the MAL is overall bigger so the extra material between them and the top of the 'Mech is greater.

But it's really only the MX90 that can claim this. The MAL-2P's lasers drag a bit so anything other than 2x HGauss leaves a lot of the firepower down low...and there are way better 'Mechs for 2x HGauss. It's a shame, too, because classic Gauss Vomit would otherwise be quite decent on the MAL-2P.

I use my 2P with 2xGauss + 3xERLL for long range, and it works. XL engine though.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 12 May 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

I use my 2P with 2xGauss + 3xERLL for long range, and it works. XL engine though.

When I decide to play Maulers at all, I use mine with 2x Gauss, 2x LL, and 4x ERML and it works, but that's not saying much.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 May 2018 - 06:53 AM, said:

Eh, I think you've inverted your Mauler example. It's plenty deadly, it just doesn't have the mobility or sufficient armor for its shape/size/mobility.

It has functionally the same armor and mobility as MCII but less firepower. That makes it a good example of how the combination of traits makes a good or not so good mech.
Here is another example - Sleipnir. Same firepower, same armor, more mobility than a mauler. Translates into much better mech.

Anyway, I think I made my point

[Y E O N N E]

Nema Nabojiv, on 12 May 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

It has functionally the same armor and mobility as MCII but less firepower. That makes it a good example of how the combination of traits makes a good or not so good mech.
Here is another example - Sleipnir. Same firepower, same armor, more mobility than a mauler. Translates into much better mech.

I'm just pointing out there's what it looks like on paper, and then there's what's actually true about it. Only one of them matters.

Sleipnir, really, has less firepower than a Mauler and it has a dramatically better shape for spreading damage. The mobility alone isn't what's doing it.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 12 May 2018 - 05:20 AM, said:

2A does more damage than the rest so the heavier nerf is justified. I own people left and right with it, in Invasion defense maps. It will hopefully shake up Solaris Div 1 top spot as well, post patch. I suppose people will flock to Anni-1A, instead.

You can have super tanky Assault, and you can have super deadly Assault, but if the Assault is super tanky and super deadly, then there will be some balance issues.

The problem is as the OP points out, In QUICKPLAY, that armor is required to make the mech viable so removing it so the mech is balanced for Solaris 7 means those who could give a rats puttie about Solaris 7 get screwed.

Sorry, Nerf not justified.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 12 May 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

The problem is as the OP points out, In QUICKPLAY, that armor is required to make the mech viable so removing it so the mech is balanced for Solaris 7 means those who could give a rats puttie about Solaris 7 get screwed.

Sorry, Nerf not justified.

Actually, FP affected this change more than Solaris. With its hitboxes less easily isolated compared to most other IS Assaults, and with a DPS that is higher than most IS Assaults, the Anni-2A needed the armor quirk nerf. Not sure if the 1X also deserved partial nerf, but my stats with it is excellent.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 May 2018 - 05:02 PM.

[Elizander]

2A is tougher than my Atlas and rivals clan damage and it has great hit boxes. Something's got to give.

[SmokedJag]

El Bandito, on 12 May 2018 - 05:53 AM, said:

Except Anni is most comfortable engaging at 500 meters distance, so it doesn't have to get close, compared to an Atlas. Also, Atlas' torsi hitboxes are way worse than that of Anni. Engine desync nerf really hit Atlas hard. Before it could twist like a mofo, but now it is slow as hell. Which is why Atlas is fine with such huge durability quirks, while Anni-2A is not.

Also, Annihilator-2A can bring more DPS than most other Assaults, thanks to 6 AC5s, or 6 AC2s + ERMLs.

^^
The only thing in the game that can match or exceed Annihilator firepower is the Dire Whale, Clan tech weapon sizes + mix & match pods. And the Whale doesn't get armor quirks despite being a magnet for punishment. The Kodiak and Deathstar...er, Desthstrike don't get armor quirks either.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

oldradagast, on 12 May 2018 - 06:18 AM, said:

and King Crab is big and fragile and can't use some ballistics options because they are in the arms.

There's a stock King Crab with LB20s in the claws, shame we can't get that.

El Bandito, on 12 May 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

I also think PGI will make a killing, if they release an Atlas with ballistics on more than one location.

Only one I saw that comes with more than one ballistic on a quick skim was a custom job based on a post-Jihad variant, and those (twin LGRs) were arm-mounted. If you want mounts in each torso that's gotta have to be a PGI exclusive, and I'd half expect that to be a new hero mech (so Sleipnir 2.0) instead of a c-bill AS7-P or whatever.

If we got the Atlas II we could at least get missiles in both STs for big MRM builds.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Elizander, on 12 May 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

2A is tougher than my Atlas and rivals clan damage and it has great hit boxes. Something's got to give.

Why does something have to give? You act like there aren't some mechs that are better than others in this game. Generally speaking I would take a Bushwacker over any other IS medium in the game and I would take it over some of the IS heavies as well. Should we nerf the Bushwacker because it is better than the other IS mediums? Also if we do nerf it and now the Griffin happens to be better than the Bushwacker, do we now nerf the Griffin?

The point I am making it that it is very much ok for one mech to be better than another or even be the best at its weight or class, at least as long as it isn't so much better that no one plays anything but that mech. The Annihilator probably is the best 100 ton mech in the game but that doesn't mean my Atlas or King Crab or Fafnir can't beat an Annihilator or can't contribute just as much to any given match as an Annihilator. In reality the margin of superiority while probably there, is rather slim and that is ok because there will always be a "Best" mech and it is absolutely fine if that best mech is the Annihilator.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 12 May 2018 - 11:11 PM.

[Xetelian]

Shouldn't be balancing the game around solaris.

Even if you want to balance a little around solaris, how about buffing the other div. 1 mechs instead?

[Nightbird]

Easier to nerf 1 mech than buff 100 mechs?

[Xetelian]

Nightbird, on 28 May 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

Easier to nerf 1 mech than buff 100 mechs?

Not when people are crying about TTK and the other 100 mechs could use the armor quirk buffs.

[Dee Eight]

BTGbullseye, on 12 May 2018 - 05:08 AM, said:

Because it has the most armor of any mech in the game, but still mounts as many weapons as any other assault.

It didn't. Hasn't in months. Atlases have the most. The Annihilators had their armor quirks reduced to less than the Atlases got about September last year, a couple months after delivery. THIS nerf was purely because so many players are doing twin HGR builds with those two variants, and are putting up higher results than with the other variants. The 2A had the higher nerfage of the two because because more folks bought basic packs than bought the reinforcements and there were more 2A twin HGR builds marching around than 1X versions. All that the nerf has done is made the twin heavy gauss fans switch to using the untouched 1A variant which stilll lets them do the build with the better armor quirks.

Of course actually putting a limit on the heavy gauss itself was obviously too simple a solution...

[Exilyth]

I skilled into survival on my Anni 2A, but I'm often loosing my guns before the armor is gone.