171 replies to this topic

[Scyther]

As usual, clanners desperate to retain their performance crutch cry harder than any IS pack I've seen.

Khorne keeps repeating his 'build math, see, IS superior!' post; apparently not noticing things such as mech speed, size, tonnage, profile, survivability of XL engine, movement archetype, or the ability to carry ECM. Or the fact that the faster cooling and longer range of the Clan mechs offsets the tiny differences in duration and the slightly larger alpha on the 10-ton heavier mech. But hey, repeat BS often enough and loud enough, maybe people will believe it!

I play IS and Clan about equally. In FP I note that Clan teams usually have a noticeable advantage against IS (not counting special situations like "but Corp X has an unstoppable MechY charge on map Z!"). In QP I don't care about faction differences, it all evens out eventually (if you play both, at least).

Scanning my builds, I've got about 3 clan builds that would be affected by the proposed Ghost Heat changes - 2 use 2 C-HLL, and 1 uses 6 CERML. Most of my builds split their alpha either side-side or high-low anyway, so it's not a biggie for me.

That said, I'm ambivalent about the proposed changes. Ghost heat is something I can work with and work around. I can trigger the penalty and fire everything if the situations calls for it, I can stagger my alpha, I can build around it. It's not great but I have options. If they nerf range/damage/duration however, I am stuck with that. Nothing I can do to work around it.

My own estimate says Clan laser vomit could use an adjustment, but not a big one. It would also be better to target specific problem mechs and/or problem weapon combos than 'hits the whole tech base' changes.

I could maybe see going with the ghost heat changes, but perhaps the ERML limit could be 5 (6 would trigger) and the HLL limit could stay at 2 (is HLL really a problem weapon, with heat/duration/CD issues?).

Otherwise, possibly negative quirks (+Heat, +CD, or -Range) on a few problem mechs, or maybe both together - smaller ghost heat changes plus a few targeted negative quirks. That seems better than a blanket, large change that hits every Clan laser mech.

Edited by MadBadger, 13 May 2018 - 04:13 AM.

[Luminis]

MadBadger, on 13 May 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

As usual, clanners desperate to retain their performance crutch cry harder than any IS pack I've seen.

The majority of people protesting the nerf and kept posting about it, at least from what I've seen, conceded that a nerf to Clan lasers ought to be a good thing, just that the way PGI wanted to go about it was BS - myself included.

The whole "Clanners just want to keep their advantage" nonsense or "Clanners are too bad to stagger fire" is just that: Whiny nonsense.

[Tordin]

They protest because, well the other weapon types are kinda like not performing as well??
Ballistic weapons and the clan side is not performing stellar in comparison to IS. And yes they do weigh less and so on. But the jam chances and heat kills bigger uacs.
Also streaming LRM fire is not as effective as cluster firing form the IS side. AMS LOVE to drink streams of blue missiles!
The lasers seems to be the ones that are the, well crutch when the other weapons arent as reliable. No wonder the laser spam.

Lets see how this turns out...

[SFC174]

Luminis, on 13 May 2018 - 04:16 AM, said:

The majority of people protesting the nerf and kept posting about it, at least from what I've seen, conceded that a nerf to Clan lasers ought to be a good thing, just that the way PGI wanted to go about it was BS - myself included.

The whole "Clanners just want to keep their advantage" nonsense or "Clanners are too bad to stagger fire" is just that: Whiny nonsense.

This.

If you call people who have different opinions than you "whiners, crybabies, etc" its really hard to have a conversation about the issue at hand. A lot of the people posting here are not dedicated faction guys. They have a mix of both types of mechs. They might lean one way or the other, but it's not all "clanner scum or freeborn idiots"

This change was ill-timed, too big, untested and generally one of the worst ways imaginable to address laser balance. Slight reductions to damage and compensating with burn time/cooldown/heat would have been far preferable. Especially with some actual testing.

[DGTLDaemon]

MadBadger, on 13 May 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

As usual, clanners desperate to retain their performance crutch cry harder than any IS pack I've seen.

PGI tried to roll out a major balance change the impact of which would be comparable to that of Energy Draw, except that it would only affect Clan mechs, with no advance warning, no PTS, and questionable justification along the lines of "Clan laser vomit OP, must nerf". No surprise that a considerable portion of the palyerbase revolted. PGI did the only sensible thing they could in this situation, shelving the changes until they are at least properly tested.

[Variant1]

wait people complain about lazer vomit but then are happy when lazers get un nerfed
am i missing something here?
Also why couldnt they just balance clan lasers lik they did in mw4? where clans had a 100-200m range adv as opposed a medium laser having the range of an is L laser?

[Koniving]

Xetelian, on 12 May 2018 - 06:03 PM, said:

66 with 6 MPL and 3 LPL

Can do that on a BL 6B KNT https://mwo.smurfy-n...6c90956e0831193

And virtually no range; the meta is long range vomit. Can't even compete with Clan laser vomit given that limited range, if you gotta be within 200 meters you're basically dead when facing the "competition."

After all the Clan version of it can effectively kill most things instantly at 500, and at 700+ can basically ruin your day after a few hits. You'd never get close to them unless distracted.

[Mystere]

Snowbluff, on 12 May 2018 - 06:53 PM, said:

Ugh, ******* no. Nerf the ******* lasers NOW. Deal with the consequences later. I want this done as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

(Kill them. For the Lord knows who are His.).

LOL!

[Wil McCullough]

Keshav Murali, on 13 May 2018 - 04:00 AM, said:

Not sure about the MAD-IIC, but the HBK-IIC can just run 2ERLL 4ERML and keep on trucking.

And I've never seen HMLs on the deathstrike. The meta was always 2Gauss, 2ERLL, 4ERML, which would not have been nerf-hammered by the proposed patch.

no one's gonna put 2erll on a hunchie iic unless they're potatoes. there's no range synergy there at all.

same with the deathstrike. who puts erll on the deathstrike?! what's the point of putting 2 of the best ppfld weapons on it if you're gonna stare with erlls? go-to backup weapons have always been 6erml or a mix of erml and hmls.how are you even getting the tonnage and heatsinks to use 2erll and 2ermls at the same time? are you running like 2 tons of gauss ammo or something?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Variant1, on 13 May 2018 - 05:38 AM, said:

Also why couldnt they just balance clan lasers lik they did in mw4? where clans had a 100-200m range adv as opposed a medium laser having the range of an is L laser?

Erm...

IS ML = 270m
IS ERML = 360m
Clan ERML = 400m
IS LL = 450m
IS ERLL = 675m
Clan ERLL = 740m

That's less than your proposed 100-200m range advantage already, with already less range on a Clan ERML than an IS LL, so what's your problem again?

[Mystere]

MadBadger, on 13 May 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

As usual, clanners desperate to retain their performance crutch cry harder than any IS pack I've seen.

From another thread:

Mystere, on 12 May 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

You do realize that those faction tags displayed below people's names on the forums are just game artifacts and are not a lifestyle choice, right? Or that people can and do own Mechs from both sides, right?

[Y E O N N E]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 May 2018 - 06:15 AM, said:

Erm...

IS ML = 270m
IS ERML = 360m
Clan ERML = 400m
IS LL = 450m
IS ERLL = 675m
Clan ERLL = 740m

That's less than your proposed 100-200m range advantage already, with already less range on a Clan ERML than an IS LL, so what's your problem again?

Shoulda thrown in the HLL, which is exactly 450 m.

Clan range advantage is largest and matters most for ERLL, otherwise it's not a terribly large deal. It's just if the Clan laser were to have everything else already better, it would be more salt in the wound.

[Chados]

Looks like the MCII nerfs were shelved too.

Good.

[oldradagast]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

Good job guys. We cried until we got our way. This is an important life lesson.

And your plan was... to remain silent about the problem? To complain after these silly changes were made? I grow very tired of people confusing "pointing out facts" with "whining." It's become the excuse of the day for people who cannot refute the facts - just label the people who brought them up as "whiners" and pretend that somehow wins the argument.

As for the changes, PGI should have had wit enough to test these on the test server first. They also should be smart enough to know by now that ghost heat is a deservedly hated system that is only needed because of other serious problems in the game. They should NOT be actively looking to expand the effects of ghost heat. If Clan lasers are too good, reduce the damage dealt by the lasers. Don't add yet more ghost heat nonsense that flat out cripples Clan laser builds.

Koniving, on 12 May 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Yep. Clans can't operate without their chicken hats.

Currently Clans can do 78 damage with 6 ER ML and 2 Heavy LL without ghost heat or shutting down. All this at only 14 tons.
Closest thing IS has without triggering ghost heat is 60 with 6 ER ML and 3 LPL all at 27 tons. Not to mention nearly twice the range for the Clans.

Then reduce the damage Clan lasers deal. That's fine. Don't add more of that awful ghost heat mechanic to the game. Crud like that makes no sense, is poorly explained in-game, and is just another stupid, illogical thing that drives away new players... not that many of them exist anymore, but you get the idea.

Many of us who were opposed to these nerfs were NOT supporting Clan superiority (I mostly play IS) or not making any changes - we're just sick of ghost heat in general and feel the developers should not rely on that cobbled-together and illogical crutch to "fix" balance issues if there's any other solution that would work.

Edited by oldradagast, 13 May 2018 - 06:35 AM.

[Koniving]

oldradagast, on 13 May 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

Then reduce the damage Clan lasers deal. That's fine. Don't add more of that awful ghost heat mechanic to the game. Crud like that makes no sense, is poorly explained in-game, and is just another stupid, illogical thing that drives away new players... not that many of them exist anymore, but you get the idea.

Many of us who were opposed to these nerfs were NOT supporting Clan superiority (I mostly play IS) or not making any changes - we're just sick of ghost heat in general and feel the developers should not rely on that cobbled-together and illogical crutch to "fix" balance issues if there's any other solution that would work.

They cry about sabotaging the weapons then.

Also it makes a single weapon far less effective when the issue is the combination of many weapons.

PGI won't touch the core issue: scaling heat thresholds.

It won't matter what PGI touches, people will complain.

They have it so you can't fire 2 20 damage weapons together and they don't work in conjunction with a lot of stuff.

2 18 damage lasers work very well with any other lasers allowing so incredible combinations, so why not?

Effectively, for the heat generated you can't actually fire two of them together in the source material anyway.

[oldradagast]

Koniving, on 13 May 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

They cry about sabotaging the weapons then.

Also it makes a single weapon far less effective when the issue is the combination of many weapons.

Who the heck is running a single laser on anything? As we've all established, boating is key in this game, and adding in more ghost heat at lower thresholds wrecks mechs that HAVE NO CHOICE but to boat energy weapons because of hardpoints.

That is the problem:
- Ghost heat is a lousy mechanic that makes no sense, is poorly explained, and just encourages bizarre builds to try to work around it. It "works" sort of... but it should NEVER be the "go to" fix for anything
- Changes like the one proposed kill entire playstyles and mechs, which is also bad.
- As usual, PGI didn't test anything and just wanted to pull this huge change out of nowhere and toss it into the game. They have EARNED the contempt the community shows for them because of this constant approach they use to balance.

I agree that the game has a mountain of problems, but the proposed fix was not a solution to anything. Some mechs have to boat energy weapons. If that means the result is "too powerful," tweak the weapon stats - don't wreck the ability to boat those weapons since that wrecks those mechs.

Now, if you want to get into the problems with boating being the answer to everything, pinpoint damage being a problem, etc, sure... but that's a much larger discussion for another time.

Edited by oldradagast, 13 May 2018 - 06:51 AM.

[Koniving]

Lights. Mechs that can't fit dozens of weapons.

Then why have the weapon? The weapon itself isn't the problem. Its combining it with more weapons than some of us even have hardpoints for let alone the ability to fire.

Unfortunately, everyone had the same reaction to an all encompassing, fully explained system like ghost heat 2.0 aka Energy Draw because while it was effective, it also didn't make sense as it was literally trying to do what heat thresholds should be doing.

There was also "lock on lasers" that was the real issue but yeah a discussion for another time.

[oldradagast]

Koniving, on 13 May 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

Lights. Mechs that can't fit dozens of weapons.

Then why have the weapon? The weapon itself isn't the problem. Its combining it with more weapons than some of us even have hardpoints for let alone the ability to fire.

Unfortunately, everyone had the same reaction to an all encompassing, fully explained system like ghost heat 2.0 aka Energy Draw because while it was effective, it also didn't make sense as it was literally trying to do what heat thresholds should be doing.

There was also "lock on lasers" that was the real issue but yeah a discussion for another time.

Lights aren't running 1 laser, and dropping the ghost threshold to 5 or more triggering it on the types of laser(s) they do run would have harmed light mechs just as much as tweaking weapon damage.

If a laser has to be nerfed, I'd rather tweak the base stats than add yet more of that stupid ghost heat into this game.

[Sjorpha]

I actually think tightening up the GH limits on clan lasers is a good idea, it was just way to much and too big of a change all at once.

I mean culling cerml from 6 to 5 would have been a fine change to start off with.

The yaw changes to MK2 seemed like a good change to me and IDK why that has to tabled just because of the complaints about the laser nerfs? In that case why not also table the Anni nerfs?

[frumpylumps]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 May 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:

Yeah, don't let stupid decisions pass by without a word. Bad things happen because of good people not stepping up. If you're on a ship and the captain's driving right into an iceberg, maybe someone should tell him to change course.

Did you want the game to die?

game will die because you have to stagger your additional lasers .5 seconds for a bigger burst or take ghost heat?

I don't understand these claims.

Edited by frumpylumps, 13 May 2018 - 08:06 AM.