171 replies to this topic

[Nema Nabojiv]

frumpylumps, on 13 May 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

stagger
stagger
stagger

Stagger doesn't work, deal with it and stop talking nonsense.

[frumpylumps]

Nema Nabojiv, on 13 May 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

Stagger doesn't work, deal with it and stop talking nonsense.

why doesn't it work?

[Sjorpha]

frumpylumps, on 13 May 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

game will die because you have to stagger your additional lasers .5 seconds for a bigger burst or take ghost heat? WTF?

This argument about "all you have to do is stagger 0.5" is just not in line with how the game actually plays. The difference between alphas and stagger fire In MWO is simply huge.

The GH linkage between gauss and ppcs DID mostly kill that playstyle, and it definitely killed it as a top tier meta alternative. It turns out you can't actually "just stagger 0.5" and stay competitive.

It's the same deal with lasers. It matters how many you can alpha, it matters a lot.

It also matters MORE the higher the level of competition is, so arguments trying to claim that all you need is more skill is also fallacious.

Forcing stagger fire and limiting alphas is simply and objectively a huge nerf in this game.

Obviously a single change doesn't kill a game, so yeah you can pick up rhetorical points this way. But looking at a larger picture a dev being disconnected from it's playerbase and churning out unpopular decisions and hamfisted balancing year after year can and does kill games.

[Nema Nabojiv]

frumpylumps, on 13 May 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

why doesn't it work?

Because you have limited window of opportunity and it is usually less than one second. There is no place to fit another half a second of waiting and another burn.

Get yourself 12 laser nova and check how well will you do full burns from both hands.

[The Lighthouse]

So, when was last time do you guys see ppc + gauss setup after the ghost heat nerf?

That should tells you the answer.

[Tarl Cabot]

frumpylumps, on 13 May 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

why doesn't it work?

Because this is no longer a thinking man's game. If the game had an actual, semi-functional heat scale with 2-3 soft thresholds all of us would be used to stagger firing and deal with a minor speed/agility loss or alpha fire then deal with a higher speed/agility loss. There would be no reasonable way to include all of BT Heatscale thresholds but it can be used as to provide that flavor with speed/agility drops being the focus.

But then the GH is approx 1 weapon's worth of additional heat per weapon. PGI could have linked HLL with both sets of laser sets and left the GH where they were at, or if needed dropped the others by one instead of two for everything but HLL.

PGI tweaks, be it buffs or nerfs, are too far in between, then when it is done it is usually done in large swaths instead of more minor increments.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 May 2018 - 08:28 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

Monkey Lover, on 12 May 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

Problem really isn't with the laser but with a few laser boats. They just need to go after these few laser boats in my view.

I agree 100%.

[lazorbeamz]

Koniving, on 12 May 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Yep. Clans can't operate without their chicken hats.

Currently Clans can do 78 damage with 6 ER ML and 2 Heavy LL without ghost heat or shutting down. All this at only 14 tons.
Closest thing IS has without triggering ghost heat is 60 with 6 ER ML and 3 LPL all at 27 tons. Not to mention nearly twice the range for the Clans.

Post nerf it'd be 59 damage Clan to 60 damage IS without hitting ghost heat at 16 tons to 27 tons and even better range.
Or risking a measily 3.7 extra ghost heat on top of a minor bit for an extra ER ML the Clans could net 66 damage for what would effectively be 60% heat on a 15 DHS build with no skill tree. Meanwhile the IS would get hit with (and currently do) 7.06 extra heat just to bring that IS 60 damage to 65, post patch... so the Clans STILL win the laser vomit war post nerf. But it would've been a lot more fair.

Hmm maybe you are right.

I cant decide on this change, really.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 13 May 2018 - 08:37 AM.

[Koniving]

lazorbeamz, on 13 May 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Hmm maybe you are right.

I cant decide on this change, really.

The nerf could've had some benefits for us. But I don't like having it or dislike having it taken away even worse.

Problem in general is laser boating. It slightly addresses the necessary ingredient for the strongest outlier and nothing else. And the only reason it is targeted is because if we had a proper locked threshold, you wouldn't be able to fire two HLL at the same time even without any other weapons.

Unfortunately PGI isn't addressing the core issue, the nerf would've been a bandaid that got the desired result and might've improved the Solaris arena and general balance between laser vomits...

I personally don't like the nerf... or the undoing of said nerf before it even happened... but I know PGI won't fix the root cause of the issue, so the nerf was the best thing I could have hoped for in order to bring out Clan mechs that didn't have to be laser vomit to be "worth having" without being one of the few that has enough missile hardpoints or tonnage available to mass-vomit missiles or totting 100 tons of ballistic fire.

Its pretty crappy all around, but hey its PGI.

A shame we can't try balancing the game ourselves.

But then again... in some cases that's even more terrifying. Know Sean Lang? Last time I heard a balance suggestion from him, he thought something was bad and that it needed "Like a 75% cooldown." This was 2014...

......and no.

[lazorbeamz]

Solaris builds can incorporate lasers as well. I ve seen the med pulse laser supernova topping division 2.
And that 66 damage IS laservom with beforementioned black knight. Its absolutely lethal and it has a very short duration. IS can do laservomit no worse then clan sometimes. I think its fair.

If they want to nerf lasers in comparison to AC and missiles then they should do it for all lasers in the game and not just the clan ones. And never ban the use of 6 erml and 2 hll. Some mechs are designed to do just that and nothing else.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 13 May 2018 - 09:01 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Most of the 'Mechs that can do 2x HLL and 6x ERML are stronger when they swap the HLL out for cERLL instead. That includes the MAD-IIC, MCII-DS, EBJ, and HBK-IIC-A.

[MechaBattler]

Xetelian, on 12 May 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

What good are these 'viable' builds when they still have the duration and heat of clan weaponry without the benefit of a higher alpha?


Thats what they've been doing to balance the two laser techs, the clan stuff burns longer and has higher heat, take away their alpha and you NEED to reduce the duration and heat to compensate.


If they had been balancing properly they would have been buffing the lasers in those ways while limiting how many you could take. If you can only take 4 ERML and 1 HLL then it doesn't make sense for them to still have the nerfs from ages ago.

So nerf IS duration a bit. Just to enough not to completely give them the edge in close quarters. But still enough to make up for the fact the Clans have better range. And despite higher heat still maintain good levels of heat efficiency.

[Y E O N N E]

MechaBattler, on 13 May 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

So nerf IS duration a bit. Just to enough not to completely give them the edge in close quarters. But still enough to make up for the fact the Clans have better range. And despite higher heat still maintain good levels of heat efficiency.

And then the IS Lights start suffering the same problem the Clan ones do: all of the lasers burn too long to be decent.

Actually, even without the Lights, certain lasers are stuck being CQC weapons and have more than Clan lasers to contend with...and therefore need the higher damage/tick anyway.

[CFC Conky]

Hello all,

I'm no expert on all things Clan laser, but would the HLL nerf be less harsh if they unlinked it from the other LL class for gh? How about buffing the HLL a bit (admittedly, this might go against lore), so that carrying just one becomes more viable?

Just throwing ideas out there...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 13 May 2018 - 10:18 AM.

[frumpylumps]

Nema Nabojiv, on 13 May 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

Because you have limited window of opportunity and it is usually less than one second. There is no place to fit another half a second of waiting and another burn.

Get yourself 12 laser nova and check how well will you do full burns from both hands.

You see, your problem is you don't want to acknowledge that there was an issue in the first place.

.5 is nothing as a cost for a bigger burst. Considering all the benfits of clan lasers. And you STILL have that big alpha but at a more balanced cost. Nothing says you can't eat some ghost heat for a critical alpha. GET GUD.

I see this being about you meta-entrenched guys not wanting to adapt to needed changes.

Edited by frumpylumps, 13 May 2018 - 10:19 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

CFC Conky, on 13 May 2018 - 10:16 AM, said:

Hello all,

I'm no expert on all things Clan laser, but would the HLL nerf be less harsh if they unlinked it from the other LL class for gh? How about buffing the HLL a bit (admittedly, this might go against lore), so that carrying just one becomes more viable?

Just throwing ideas out there...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Remember, tis been table for now for a future PT thingy. But instead of dropping it down to 1 before GH, keep the 2 max but link it to both Laser groupings instead of just Linked Large Laser setting.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 May 2018 - 10:24 AM.

[Prototelis]

frumpylumps, on 13 May 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

why doesn't it work?

Because the most fragile mechs in the game cannot afford the extra exposure time. Clan lasers already require a pretty firm commitment to exposing yourself to get full damage. It also just isn't fun.

The ghost heat limits we have now at the very least have good synergy with the amount of hardpoints you have or the amount of lasers you can fit.

If gigabringer is the problem address that, light mechs don't need anymore indirect nerfs to performance.

[Nema Nabojiv]

frumpylumps, on 13 May 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

You see, your problem is you don't want to acknowledge that there was an issue in the first place.

Because there is no problem. Once you learn to move and twist you wont have it either.

[frumpylumps]

Prototelis, on 13 May 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

Because the most fragile mechs in the game cannot afford the extra exposure time. Clan lasers already require a pretty firm commitment to exposing yourself to get full damage. It also just isn't fun.

I disagree. .5 seconds for a superior burst is the just the price you pay. Or, you take ghost heat. You have options but you guys want to have your cake and eat it too.

Having your overpowered crutch builds nerfed is not supposed to be fun. It is necessary.

Nema Nabojiv, on 13 May 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Because there is no problem. Once you learn to move and twist you wont have it either.

The numbers disagree. Yours seems more about you having your cake and eating it too. All of my WTF moments have come from clan lasers though the backside on faster mechs. I love doing this myself on clan mechs and they appear far superior to IS mechs for this tactic. The imbalance that exists is glaring.

Edited by frumpylumps, 13 May 2018 - 11:13 AM.

[oldradagast]

frumpylumps, on 13 May 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

why doesn't it work?

For the same reason RAC's and MRM's are generally considered poor weapons in competitive play: standing around, trying to hold DPS on target, is a great way to get killed and do nothing but splatter damage all over the target.

I find it hilarious that the "gud" players who love the proposed change are praising "staggering your lasers" as a solution when at the SAME TIME, good players have been telling new ones for years that weapons that require long face time are generally bad, which is true.

Which is it? Because if RAC's and MRM's are generally poor because of the long "beam" duration you need to hold, than staggering long beam Clan lasers would also be poor.