41 replies to this topic

[Alexander of Macedon]

El Bandito, on 13 May 2018 - 04:11 AM, said:

Their constant re-tuning champions into higher skill based forms had lost older players such as me. I played LoL from early 2010, and I was far more content when older champions/items had simpler mechanics, as they were easier to memorize and easier to execute. Now with 120+ champions and 100+ items and having most of them tuned to high skill ceiling abilities, I can't keep up with memorizing all of them, or executing them on time. I'm too old for all that. Which is why I stopped playing LoL from two years ago.

Most of the roster are still fairly straightforward with the main skill check being hitting skillshots. The ones with more complex interactions exist, and the simpler ones have moved away from point-and-click.

Poppy's a great example. The old version was absurdly fun, but it was also absurdly overpowered. Press Q for extra damage on next auto. Press W for more speed. Press E to auto-gapclose. Press R to force duel. Nothing aimed beyond potentially positioning to E into walls. The rework: Q turned into a short-range skillshot. W given an additional effect. R turned into a skillshot peel that requires decent timing to use well.

I don't play much myself any more, but the bulk of the game is still basically the same, just with the brainless auto-hit abilities and kits that are half passive buffs removed or changed.


We actually have a good point of comparison here in MWO: perfect instant convergence is exactly the same sort of crutch as point-and-click abilities in a MOBA. It removes the need to assess shot viability before firing and heavily reduces the effects of distance and enemy movement on your damage spread.

All these nerfs being done in the name of increasing TTK when the answer is literally just limiting weapon convergence and making it take time rather than happening instantly when you flick over and pull the trigger.

That would increase the importance of steady aim, force people to spend longer lining up shots to maximize damage, increase the importance of arm mounts, and generally reduce how well people can concentrate damage.

[Asym]

LoL and MWO are "apples and oranges".... Could they learn from each other, sure.... But, LoL is designed to a different market segment (a more youthful audience) and MWO is a decades old Small Niche Market. That will not change.

So, retention is the key metric and nerf's and meta are what will or will not kill or keep this game viable. I'd be a fan of "starting over" and undo all of the nerf's and take a hard look at what "could or should" work, no matter how lethal and TTK inhibiting/affecting those changes would be....

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 13 May 2018 - 12:08 AM, said:

Nerfs/buffs are constant in MP only game.

You say "constant", I say "bad planning, foresight, and execution". And I say that because I think, just like the internet, they are just an excuse to release shoddy products at the expense of quality, especially when they can be patched later anyway.

Edited by Mystere, 13 May 2018 - 07:48 AM.

[Mystere]

Alexander of Macedon, on 13 May 2018 - 03:23 AM, said:

The real irony is that certain individuals at PGI are trying real hard to ride the esports train while at the same time constantly degrading the game in ways designed to make it unappealing to good players and audiences. If you nerf everything down into a grey mush where skill doesn't matter, you won't attract players on a "professional" level (for whatever that means with our population size lmao) because there's no room to develop or exercise skill, and won't attract audiences because it's boring to watch a game where skill doesn't matter and the action is slow.

Frankly , I don't give a flying **** about that part, outside of a Solaris context, of course. BT (again, outside of a Solaris context) is just the wrong IP for eSports.

Edited by Mystere, 13 May 2018 - 07:45 AM.

[MrXanthios]

Cer6erus, on 12 May 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

The nerfs do nothing but promote 'w' plus 'mouse 1' gameplay, where the playing field is being 'leveled' so that everyone has a chance.

Until the matchmaking is the total **** that currently is, you need to level the battleground. Everyone in time can become tier1, even without any aiming skill nor any of the other skills you mentioned in your list, so you end up having games that are just ridiculous non-fun-at-all stomps. I constantly see people that cannot go further two digits in tier1, so my question is what the **** are they doing there? In absence of a tier system that rates people based on a series of completely different data, there isn't much that can be done

[El Bandito]

Alexander of Macedon, on 13 May 2018 - 06:16 AM, said:

We actually have a good point of comparison here in MWO: perfect instant convergence is exactly the same sort of crutch as point-and-click abilities in a MOBA. It removes the need to assess shot viability before firing and heavily reduces the effects of distance and enemy movement on your damage spread.

All these nerfs being done in the name of increasing TTK when the answer is literally just limiting weapon convergence and making it take time rather than happening instantly when you flick over and pull the trigger.

That would increase the importance of steady aim, force people to spend longer lining up shots to maximize damage, increase the importance of arm mounts, and generally reduce how well people can concentrate damage.

Except some of the tryhard people in this very thread are bound to argue against delayed convergence cause that punishes twitch aim, and that punishes skill! Truly, PGI cannot satisfy everyone.

Mystere, on 13 May 2018 - 07:41 AM, said:

You say "constant", I say "bad planning, foresight, and execution". And I say that because I think, just like the internet, they are just an excuse to release shoddy products at the expense of quality, especially when they can be patched later anyway.

PGI is a small company, with limited talent, and had to crowdfund to get their game started up. I learned not to ask for too much from them. Just the fact the servers are running is good enough for me. Plenty of former more popular FPS games have their servers shut down already by now, yet MWO is still here after 6 years.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 May 2018 - 09:05 AM.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 13 May 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

Except some of the tryhard people in this very thread are bound to argue against delayed convergence cause that punishes twitch aim, and that punishes skill! Truly, PGI cannot satisfy everyone.

Well, we did used to have delayed convergence and was removed because of PGI's inability to implement it reliably in parallel with hit registration. So these same tryhards loudly demanding that inverse kinematics be brought back should have no problem with delayed convergence also being brought back.

El Bandito, on 13 May 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

PGI is a small company, with limited talent, and had to crowdfund to get their game started up. I learned not to ask for too much from them. Just the fact the servers are running is good enough for me. Plenty of former more popular FPS games have their servers shut down already by now, yet MWO is still here after 6 years.

That's not an excuse to choose expediency over quality.

It can also be reasonably argued that they are very good at stringing players along.




I am still lost why some of your replies to me generate notifications while others do not.

Edited by Mystere, 13 May 2018 - 09:20 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 12 May 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

Stop being a drama queen. Rebuilding mechs is part of the fun of Mechwarrior series. Besides, a lot of laser vomit configs will still use the same skill tree so you are not really losing out on much.

Speak for yourself. Sure I like to tweak builds here and there but once I get them dialed in, I don't generally mess with them. Also I am not floating in C-bills like alot of people, probably because I tend to buy mech packs which even if you pre-order don't come with near enough C-bills to outfit or skill up. I get really sick of spending 5 million C-bills on a engine only to see PGI nerf something that makes it so the most optimal build requires an entirely different size engine.

Also on to skills, sure if I am sticking with lasers maybe the build would be ok but what if switching out a couple HLLs for a UAC/10 makes more sense after the rebuild? What if heat management becomes less important or for that matter increasing range. If I was to swap out HLL for ER LL, I sure the heck don't need range nodes to extend my engagement range after all. I might not even need as much heat managment since ER LLs don't spike heat like HLLs will. Maybe I would be better off taking those nodes I invested into range and heat management and get more armor or structure, maybe it would be better spent on getting radar dep or more mobility. Changing up those nodes require time and C-bills.

So no, I don't want to log in one May 12th and face having to evaluated and possibly rebuild and reskill the 21 mechs that I identified as being dramatically effected by the ghost heat change they are thinking about doing. Nor do I want to deal with the frustration of possibly finding out my favorite builds and mechs no longer function the way they did prior to the patch.

Also if you really find it fun to rebuild your mechs every few weeks, hey nothing is stopping you, knock yourself out. Myself I don't find it fun so I don't want want to be FORCED to do so by massive changes that rarely fix anything while usually breaking something in the process.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 13 May 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

Also on to skills, sure if I am sticking with lasers maybe the build would be ok but what if switching out a couple HLLs for a UAC/10 makes more sense after the rebuild? What if heat management becomes less important or for that matter increasing range. If I was to swap out HLL for ER LL, I sure the heck don't need range nodes to extend my engagement range after all. I might not even need as much heat managment since ER LLs don't spike heat like HLLs will. Maybe I would be better off taking those nodes I invested into range and heat management and get more armor or structure, maybe it would be better spent on getting radar dep or more mobility. Changing up those nodes require time and C-bills.

If you are tweaking skills just for a single UAC10, when you still have plenty of lasers, then that's very inefficient spending of your SP. Also, ERLL actually benefits from range nodes more than any other lasers, and even if you do not need them for your ERLLs, you will still need the range nodes for your CERMLs, which are still in those builds.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 May 2018 - 05:32 PM.

[Cer6erus]

I'm with drake on this. People like me who min-max builds and try to get the best possible build working to perfection ABSOLUTELY need to tinker with every node. CERLL doesn't need range to go from 740m to 850m. Swapping lasers for UAC means you might need to invest in the jam bar, which takes more then 2 nodes to swap if you don't have a path to get to it. You might find that the build runs hotter/colder then it used to, and adjust heat nodes accordingly. If the build is colder, and it has UAC's, its time for cooldown nodes instead of the heat nodes. Not to mention after tinkering with firepower you have more/less skill points which changes the optimal path for your armor/mobility tree. There are MANY ways to optimize small sections of tree where going 11 nodes into 'x' tree will give higher yield down one section, but if you have 13 nodes only, going down the other side of the tree is better.

[Vellron2005]

Cer6erus, on 12 May 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

Spoiler

So, this is just my opinion, and I would be curious to hear others as well.

I have played since closed beta, back when there were 8 mechs total, 8v8, and not a lot of people. While I have not played consistently over the years, I have done so and kept tabs on the game long enough to be experienced with all of the different metas to come and go.

To name a few:
UAC5's -> Jam bar -> worse jam bar
Dual Guass -> charge time + explosion
Jumpjets + PPFLD (ppc/ac5) -> velocity changes and JJ cockpit shake
Large laser/PPC stalker spam -> ghost heat
Dual AC20 -> ghost heat
Clan lasers on release-> range nerfs/duration nerfs (completely warranted, but worth mentioning)
PCC/Guass -> Linked ghost heat, what?
AC's/UAC's -> Extra heat for AC's, again, what?
Clan Laser vomit -> ghost heat cap. what?

The point of this is twofold. The first is that it is clear there is a general trend. A weapon system is popular, it gets brutally nerfed. People move on to another, it gets brutally nerfed, they change again, nerfed, then they are back to a similar/old system, for yet another nerf.

The second point is there is a reason for a meta to come about after a nerf. Pro/Comp players will ALWAYS find the best all around build to run at any given time/meta. That is a fact, its their job, they need to do so. Once they find their optimal builds, then come the tryhards like me. We swoop in and use that build for ourselves. We like to win, lets get every advantage we can get. Eventually, anyone who pays enough attention to the meta/wants to win/can afford to keep up the Cbill cost will adopt the meta as well. This leads to two things.
- Massive use of a style of build
- *generally* higher skill players using that build to great effect (I know you can pick holes in this point but you get the idea that generally the people running 'pro/tryhard' builds are the pros, tryhards, and Cbill rich who usually have more experience in the game and have higher skill levels.)

It only makes sense that then this build will seem disproportionately stronger in the general public's eye, leading to eventual nerfs. I know there are many cases where a build may need to be adjusted, but nearly all of the adjustments made have been on average, complete death warrants for the style of play. Which brings me to my final point...

There will always be a dominate meta, no matter what. Its impossible to balance a game 100% so that every build is viable. The problem at hand is that the nerfs are generally overblown and lead to a reduction in skill ceiling which can be applied to the game. This is bad. Examples...

UAC5's used to need a manual unjam to fire again, got removed. Less skill needed
Dual guass -> charge time. Less chance to twitch aim. Less skill needed
Jumpjets/PPFLD -> system of gameplay rewarding positioning and fast aim. Effectively removed. Less skill needed.
Large laser spam/PPC stalker meta -> This is one of the cases where this needed to go, but one can still argue that the build rewarded good aim/high risk reward. Less skill needed? I dont know
Dual AC20's -> ghost heat. -> Build that required great aim/torso twisting -> less skill needed (yes you can argue more skill needed to put 2 shots in a row on target, but gives less counter-play/torso twist options)
Clan lasers -> lets face it, clans were Pay To Win on release. That nerf was needed. I never had the chance to use them at the time, but when people say clans are OP, picture clans 2x stronger then they are now, without the crazy IS quirks/armor to keep them alive. This is why I laugh when people say clans are op when most never saw what it was like 'back in the day'. But they were nerfed in a way to still be VIABLE (range/damage/duration)
PPC/Guass. Needed good aim to pull off. build doesnt work if you can't focus components. Less skill needed.
AC's/UAC's. Everyone used them (what else to use?) -> nerf. No skill based arguments for here.
New clan laser tuning -> Laser vomit requires good aim and heat managements skills. Nerf. Less skill needed.
Also, Engine desync. Less mobility/torso twisting. Less skill needed

All I am saying is that there is a trend, in which nerfs are carried out in a way which do not lead to better/higher skill gameplay. No one needs to torso twist if you fire a 4 MLAS alpha with 1.2 second burn time. No need to use jumpjets/aim for components when PPFLD is being destroyed. The nerfs do nothing but promote 'w' plus 'mouse 1' gameplay, where the playing field is being 'leveled' so that everyone has a chance. 1/10ths of a second matter less and less when it starts to take 2-3 seconds to deal your damage between peaking from cover and going back to safety. At that rate anyone can return fire and go even on a trade. The act of raising TTK means that mistakes receive less punishment and good plays are not as rewarded. No one wants a turret match. All I am asking is once the new meta eventually emerges, please nerf it in a way that rewards skillful play instead of lowering the skill ceiling.

What are your thoughts on this?

While I agree that some levels of skill need to be maintained (And you forgot the lock-on arcs nerf which also lowered skill by effectively killing LRM bending), you need to understand why this is happening:

This is now an OLD, NICHE game.. meaning.. the game has been around for a while, and not many people play it..

But it's also a business. Meaning it needs to put money into the developer's company.

And given PGI's record of disappointing it's customers, those whales that were once paying for everything and anything PGI gave them, have either left the game, or stopped buying everything, so PGI MUST get new blood.. and it can't do that if the skill ceiling is too high, and the old veterans club the fresh seals to death..

The learning curve in this game is extreme to say the least.. so lowering the skill level needed for a new player to feel "accomplished" and start putting money into PGI's coffers is really the only thing PGI can do to keep itself afloat..

And besides.. nerfing current meta shakes things up, keeping the game feeling "fresh", if only by appearance..

Nerfs are not gameplay decisions.. they are management decisions..

Edited by Vellron2005, 15 May 2018 - 01:55 AM.

[Kroete]

Alexander of Macedon, on 13 May 2018 - 03:23 AM, said:

If PGI are really wanting to make MWO take off, they need to be making changes which reward high skill rather than trying to nerf everything that good players can use effectively. That's not a winnable game. Good players will always figure out the most effective builds. If you successfully nerf everything so heavily that it's all complete ****, good players will move on to other games.

If there is no best build, skilled players will leave?
Though about skill as ability and not as parroting the best (unbalanced) build?

Edited by Kroete, 15 May 2018 - 01:48 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 13 May 2018 - 12:08 AM, said:

Nerfs/buffs are constant in MP only game. Besides, Russ has backed off from it, for now.

They don't have to be constant though. Them being constant is a sign of bad balancing, as they have to go back and repeatedly fix balance all the time and always fail to hit the mark, thus balance becomes a pendulum rather than an even scale. That's not to say that some games that never changed their balance weren't unbalanced, its just that generally by 6 years going there doesn't really need to be any balance changes made assuming problems are fixed in a timely manner.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

6 years of fooling people that "balancing" was anything other than changing the meta.

If they didn't get it right in 6 years. they won't get it right in 10.

[a gaijin]

THOUGHTS ON THE HISTORY OF NERFINGS AND METAS


My thoughts are that it was enough to drive me away from this game TWICE after dumping hundreds of dollars into it hoping for...what wasn't delivered.

I still check back out of morbid curiosity even though I stopped playing ages ago. What I learned from this is:

- Free to play games all end up being boring. (this isn't just MWO related)

- MW games that don't have a single player campaign included aren't worth putting any $$ into.

- There are certain studios I won't ever give $$ to again ever. One of them developed MW4 and another developed a MW game after that.

- I probably won't be playing any new MechWarrior game until 2025 (if one is made that isn't put out by a certain unnamed studio).

- At least I still have my original MW2 & MW3 series CDs so I can still play those until 2025

[El Bandito]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 15 May 2018 - 06:59 AM, said:

They don't have to be constant though. Them being constant is a sign of bad balancing, as they have to go back and repeatedly fix balance all the time and always fail to hit the mark, thus balance becomes a pendulum rather than an even scale. That's not to say that some games that never changed their balance weren't unbalanced, its just that generally by 6 years going there doesn't really need to be any balance changes made assuming problems are fixed in a timely manner.

Nah, take League of Legends--the most popular online arena game in the world--for example. Despite the fact the game is out for 8 years, it is constantly getting tweaked with nerf/buffs. Partly due to the immense amount of variables/interactions the game has to offer, but also partly due to steady addition/rework of new champions/items to the game, and also partly due to the need to keep things fresh, to keep players engaged and experimenting in new combinations.

MWO is the same rinse and repeat type of game, with a lot of potential variables/combinations, and steady addition of new mechs, and in dire need of keeping things fresh. Therefore, constant tweaks are completely understandable.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 15 May 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

Nah, take League of Legends--the most popular online arena game in the world--for example. Despite the fact the game is out for 8 years, it is constantly getting tweaked with nerf/buffs. Partly due to the immense amount of variables/interactions the game has to offer, but also partly due to steady addition/rework of new champions/items to the game, and also partly due to the need to keep things fresh, to keep players engaged and experimenting in new combinations.

MWO is the same rinse and repeat type of game, with a lot of potential variables/combinations, and steady addition of new mechs, and in dire need of keeping things fresh. Therefore, constant tweaks are completely understandable.

MOBAs generally will go and totally rework their game on a whim just for the sake of change rather than the sake of balance. Arena shooters? They'll occasionally buff up a rarely used weapon, fix some bugs, and add in new content then maybe balance changes on said new content to help it mesh with the already balanced out foundation they have established.

In MWO the foundation isn't really there due to huge sweeping changes PGI makes, nothing is safe and nobody really knows where the floor of performance that PGI is balancing around is. This type of unknown is generally bad for a free to play game, as nobody really wants to make purchases if they feel that a game patch may move the mech from workable to totally useless then it never gets brought back up to the workable status.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

El Bandito, on 15 May 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

Nah, take League of Legends--the most popular online arena game in the world--for example. Despite the fact the game is out for 8 years, it is constantly getting tweaked with nerf/buffs. Partly due to the immense amount of variables/interactions the game has to offer, but also partly due to steady addition/rework of new champions/items to the game, and also partly due to the need to keep things fresh, to keep players engaged and experimenting in new combinations.

MWO is the same rinse and repeat type of game, with a lot of potential variables/combinations, and steady addition of new mechs, and in dire need of keeping things fresh. Therefore, constant tweaks are completely understandable.

Odd how Btech players have been playing that game for more than half their long lives without a constant need to tweak and make things "fresh".

If they do it right and get it right they don't have to change it. Make different mechs have different draws to them. You remember that mythical role warfare? Ya, I barely do. That was supposed to solve a lot of the crap.

Like most of my observations, they are unwilling or unable to deliver. In my eyes and the eyes of many others it is such a waste of constant dev time and attention to keep the hamster wheel of "balance" rolling. Get it right.

If they are still unable to make mechs like the Dragon desirable in any way beyond nostalgia, I'm not sure why they took they project on. Did they walk into it knowing they would make half their mechs useless?

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 15 May 2018 - 07:21 AM.

[El Bandito]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 15 May 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

If they are still unable to make mechs like the Dragon desirable in any way beyond nostalgia, I'm not sure why they took they project on. Did they walk into it knowing they would make half their mechs useless?

Actually DRG-5N is still very deadly, and was used in last year's MWOWC. Some of the Dragon chassis were very decent during the hyper quirk era of 2015.

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 15 May 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

MOBAs generally will go and totally rework their game on a whim just for the sake of change rather than the sake of balance. Arena shooters? They'll occasionally buff up a rarely used weapon, fix some bugs, and add in new content then maybe balance changes on said new content to help it mesh with the already balanced out foundation they have established.

In MWO the foundation isn't really there due to huge sweeping changes PGI makes, nothing is safe and nobody really knows where the floor of performance that PGI is balancing around is. This type of unknown is generally bad for a free to play game, as nobody really wants to make purchases if they feel that a game patch may move the mech from workable to totally useless then it never gets brought back up to the workable status.

Except nothing should be safe, due to the aforementioned huge amount of variables, and new additions. I do not understand why people complain when mechs/weapons/techs get nerfed or buffed--for that is the nature of the game. It is the first thing one should get used to it--and it is one of the first things in our user agreement with PGI.

• 2. Content. We may, from time to time at our sole discretion and without notice or liability, create, amend, change, or delete any content from the PGI Offerings.

Of course, it is entirely acceptable to resist PGI's changes if they are deemed totally bonkers.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 May 2018 - 07:41 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 15 May 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

If they are still unable to make mechs like the Dragon desirable in any way beyond nostalgia

Liked the rest of your post, but in this current iteration of "balance" the Dragon is top tier. Was in the last WC in the winning team's roster and is an incredibly tanky and agile mech with options ranging from suppressive fire overwatch (used in WC) and high speed PPFLD poker.