44 replies to this topic

[dimachaerus]

Take us to the wayback machine, and remove heatsinks adding more heat "capacity". Put heatsinks back to their actual disipation rates, and give us a functioning heatscale.

The hotter you run, the more your mechs aim shakes, your hud goes all flickery, the cockpit gets all steamy and Natasha Kerensky starts to... err.. nevermind that last part. lets start over shall we?

Hot mechs run slower, turn slower and are less accurate, they can even have ammo explosions if run too hot for too long, though that might be excessive. You already have the disparate bits of code you'd need to make these work, reticle shake from MASC/JJ usage, Mech slowdown from CXL/LFE destruction. Just need to hitch them to the heat scale. I personally think that would be a good place to start from instead of tweaking Ghost heat, though that could be looked at as well, and possibly even relaxed. Would also make flamers much more meaningful in influencing a fight.

[BurningDesire]

maybe chop the range out of HLL like to small laser range instead of halfway across the map

[dimachaerus]

BurningDesire, on 19 May 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

maybe chop the range out of HLL like to small laser range instead of halfway across the map

Negatory, lets fix the systems that promote laservom, not just destroy specific weapon systems.

[Monkey Lover]

I really dont find it that much of an issue right now.

[Luminis]

I don't think PGI is going to add an intricate system like that at this point. Lowering the heat cap and increasing dissipation without further effects added to the heat scale ought to achieve much of the same thing, anyway.

Monkey Lover, on 19 May 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

I really dont find it that much of an issue right now.

I don't think laser vomit is the scariest thing either side can field, either...

[dimachaerus]

Luminis, on 19 May 2018 - 09:49 PM, said:

I don't think laser vomit is the scariest thing either side can field, either...

Truth. However it's just made the game stale and generally un-fun. I realize that the game's basically on life-support but a guy can dream can't he?

[Luminis]

dimachaerus, on 19 May 2018 - 10:41 PM, said:

Truth. However it's just made the game stale and generally un-fun.

I see that a lot and I don't really feel like that's true. Laser Vomit being prominent isn't the cause of the game being stale; both have the same cause, from my point of view.

Things that feed into the prominence of Laser Vomit are the nerfing of several other playstyles, heavily reduced agility across the board and a large number of maps that allow, if not favour, a peek and fade playstyle that prioritises alpha damage over DPS. Or quite simply the huge disparity between good and bad chassis, that cause the same fistful of Mechs to make up the bulk of the Mechs in every match.

Those things also take a fair bit of diversity out of the game, thus making it stale. But even if you removed Laser Vomit from the game, you'd still have dozens of Mechs that feel like you're piloting a bathtub, see a dominant (probably Gauss Vomit) playstyle and the same few Mechs doing well overall.

If PGI wants to make the game less stale, they ought to bring underperformers up to par instead of nerfing the few things that still works. That mentality is what got us to where we are, after all.

[dimachaerus]

I agree with your points, but like I said, the heatscale stuff would be a good starting point. Honestly, we need more damn maps, not mechpacks. But maps don't bring in the $$$, so they've never been a priority. If only there was a way to fix this... oh wait, user created maps? Nah, can't do that.

Hell, in MW:LL our community was based as fugg, a lot of the best maps were community created but PGI doesn't seem to feel that the community could be trusted with that sort of creative input, even though it'd earn them a fair bit of good will and go towards improving the game's replayability at the late stage in it's life.

[FupDup]

Having a low heat threshold and heat penalties both at the same time is overkill. Firing something very mild like twin IS ERPPC would instantly trigger penalties in such a system, or if we went all the way down to just 30 threshold (like a lot of people suggest) then twin ERPPC would just be instant shutdown period.

That's how you get a GaussDakka meta.

[Luminis]

FupDup, on 20 May 2018 - 06:22 AM, said:

Having a low heat threshold and heat penalties both at the same time is overkill. Firing something very mild like twin IS ERPPC would instantly trigger penalties in such a system, or if we went all the way down to just 30 threshold (like a lot of people suggest) then twin ERPPC would just be instant shutdown period.

That's how you get a GaussDakka meta.

Unless we also went for TT heat dissipation and I bet nobody wants that. The stuff that can be heat neutral or damn close in TT would make a lot of players cry havoc.

[FupDup]

Luminis, on 20 May 2018 - 06:24 AM, said:

Unless we also went for TT heat dissipation and I bet nobody wants that. The stuff that can be heat neutral or damn close in TT would make a lot of players cry havoc.

When we factor in Cool Run and Heat Gen skills our cooling abilities get pretty close to TT cooling. There are two issues that make MWO not work with those values:

1. TT's cooling is applied instantly instead of spread out over time, thus allowing you to fire pretty big payloads with no penalty if you pack enough heatsinks. In TT if you have 15 DHS and fire 2 ERPPC you generate literally zero heat.

2. MWO's weapons generate much greater heat over time due to faster rate of fire.

Edited by FupDup, 20 May 2018 - 06:27 AM.

[Luminis]

FupDup, on 20 May 2018 - 06:27 AM, said:

When we factor in Cool Run and Heat Gen skills our cooling abilities get pretty close to TT cooling. There are two issues that make MWO not work with those values:

1. TT's cooling is applied instantly instead of spread out over time, thus allowing you to fire pretty big payloads with no penalty if you pack enough heatsinks. In TT if you have 15 DHS and fire 2 ERPPC you generate literally zero heat.

2. MWO's weapons generate much greater heat over time due to faster rate of fire.

. Forgot about the faster rate of fire, you're right.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Monkey Lover, on 19 May 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

I really dont find it that much of an issue right now.

I honestly feel the same. I mean every once in a while I get caught with my pants down and take a full duration 70+ alpha shot but that is because I let myself get caught. Most often when someone tries to pull off a 1.5 second burn I do the wiggle-jiggle and spread it all the hell over my mech. Problem solved. In the meantime, the one who shot me is off hiding doing nothing of importance cooling off from that alpha strike.

Seriously though, I think so many of the "supposed" problems are brought about by a player's lack of skill rather than any real problem with the game or balancing. I mean if you just stand there like a deer in headlights while someone shoots at you, what do you think it going to happen??

[Khobai]

Quote

Take us to the wayback machine, and remove heatsinks adding more heat "capacity". Put heatsinks back to their actual disipation rates, and give us a functioning heatscale.

no thanks

the goal should be to balance lasers, not turn the game into gausswarrior online

lowering heat cap will only force people towards gauss because its high damage for low heat.


the absolute best way to balance clan lasers at this point is to lower the damage. CERML @ 6 damage. HLL at 16-17 damage. that mostly fixes clan laser vomit.

Edited by Khobai, 20 May 2018 - 10:32 AM.

[Luminis]

Khobai, on 20 May 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

HLL at 16 damage.

Which, ironically, is where it should be according to the TT...

[Khobai]

Luminis, on 20 May 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

Which, ironically, is where it should be according to the TT...

sortve. in tabletop, heavy lasers are equal to x2 of the regular IS lasers

so like a heavy medium laser is the same as x2 IS medium lasers

and a heavy large laser is the same as x2 IS large lasers

since IS large lasers do 9 damage in MWO, they doubled it to get 18 damage on the HLL. that probably wasnt a bad starting place for the HLL.

the problem is it gives clans a significantly higher laser vomit alpha than IS, and thats what screws up the balance. the HLL by itself isnt the problem. Its only a problem when its combined with 4-6 CERML as part of a massive alphastrike.

unfortunately the other solutions, like ghost heat, are worse solutions than just nerfing the damage on the CERML/HLL. so even though the HLL by itself isnt overpowered, its damage should to be nerfed to balance the bigger picture. because its the least invasive way to fix the problem.

so again CERML->6 damage and HLL->16-17 damage. And readjust all the other stats (heat, duration, cooldown, etc...) based on the lower damage. thats the best way to balance clan laser vomit.

Edited by Khobai, 20 May 2018 - 10:57 AM.

[dimachaerus]

See, my major beef with laservom is that it's too bloody easy. Place reticle on enemy, receive damage. No leading, no locking on, and currently very little in the way of actually having to manage heat. The huge heat caps we can get now, combined with the "chokepoint hell" or "no mans land" dichotomy of our current maps means that there is very little actual downside to playing alpha-warrior-laser-online 24/7.

Yeah, lowered heatcaps would make gauss more attractive, but at least they take a bit of lead, charge up, have the DPS of a wet noodle and can't be effectively boated.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yeah, lowered heatcaps would make gauss more attractive, but at least they take a bit of lead, charge up, have the DPS of a wet noodle and can't be effectively boated.

but with a lower heat cap their DPS would no longer be all that bad

because every other weapon would have its dps lowered due to the lower heat cap

gauss would become absolutely dominant

[dimachaerus]

Khobai, on 20 May 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

but with a lower heat cap their DPS would no longer be all that bad

because every other weapon would have its dps lowered due to the lower heat cap

gauss would become absolutely dominant

They also explode when you tickle them with a MG, weigh a bucketload of tons compared to their equivalent damage in lasers, and can be shielded against more easily due to their charge up time. I think it'd bring dakka back more than it would gauss though even the dakka would, as you said, be toned down due to heat.

I feel like it'd make choices in a fight more meaningful than just "press trigger dispense BZZZZZT".

[Khobai]

Quote

They also explode when you tickle them with a MG, weigh a bucketload of tons compared to their equivalent damage in lasers, and can be shielded against more easily due to their charge up time. I think it'd bring dakka back more than it would gauss though even the dakka would, as you said, be toned down due to heat.

I feel like it'd make choices in a fight more meaningful than just "press trigger dispense BZZZZZT".

making gauss the only choice does not increase the number of choices.

lowering heat cap is way too extreme in the other direction.

the best solution is to weaken lasers (and maybe buff clan UACs) just to the point where laser-only builds arnt good enough to compete on their own. make it so you have to mix lasers with some other weapon in order to be viable. clan gauss obviously needs to be nerfed too because its every bit as good as IS gauss for 3 less tons.

and then the mechs that are supposed to use only lasers, like the nova, should get quirks to make them viable.

Edited by Khobai, 20 May 2018 - 11:13 AM.