34 replies to this topic

[Zombiesbum]

I've said this before but PGI really need to encourage new players to remain playing MWO. Currently new players are *** ****** for a number of reasons which I will state and I suggest PGI does something about it.


Mech bays
Currently PGI offers a whopping 4 mech bays to use for any player that starts. This is beyond pathetic considering that it shouldn't even be a resource in this game.

The only way a new player is going to be able to use more than 4 mechs is either dropping faction play, joining the game during or just before an event that offers MC/Bays, or forking over money. This is not good enough.

New players should have more starting bays and ideally mech bays should be removed all together. After all I'm willing to guess that mech packs are really what makes the money.


Trial Mechs
Trial mechs need to be customizable with skills to allocate so players can better make a choice if a mech suits them. I don't understand why a players can't customize trial mechs. Give me a good reason why it shouldn't be the case.


Payouts
Payouts for games screw over new players completely. A new player is only going to have 2 mechs outfitted by the time he/she finishes their 20 odd games of "starter cash". Of which those mechs may not even be optimal or fun to play.

A new player does not have the mechs OR experience to gain high damage during games. When I first started I was lucky to get over 100k for a win. A new player is going to look at their **** payout and understand that's its going to take a long time buy the mechs they want.

And I don't care what any of you say. You do not make a thriving community by strangling your consumers until they pay for mechs just because they are playing for free. Especially when the quality of content is questionable (unfixed bugs for over 2 years for example), I'm not going to support a company that does not improve basic features like chat, friends lists, UI, rep system, loading times, etc.

I digress. Every player in a match should have an equal payout depending on win/loss rather than damage done. This not only helps new players not leave in frustration but actually encourages team play and objective based games instead of chasing kills to get paid. It also addresses the problem of trying to measure unmeasurable contribution to the team.

I really do not understand why PGI has not done this already.


Consumables
Consumables should be free to use but obviously not generate any income. I don't use consumables that often because I need the c-bills. While other people have over 200 million.
This means that if you don't need the c-bills you are going to fill your mech with consumables and thus have a slight advantage because you don't care about making money. This creates an even wider gap between new players and long time players. Also consumables rarely pay for themselves.

Balance consumables based on their stats and usage, not on how much they cost.


QoL
PGI, it seems to me that you underestimate quality of life changes. When you go to an interview dressed like **** how likely are you to get that job?
The same applies to MWO. When new players see things like; broken friends list (for over 2 years), basic features like not being able to chat to friends in a match, or loading times that makes windows 95 seem fast, is it any wonder why the game has such a low population when these things are left in such a state?

Edited by Zombiesbum, 21 May 2018 - 03:39 AM.

[Moochachoo]

I agree with your sentiment on mech bays, I too think it’s a pretty lame tax.

I don’t agree with allowing trial mechs to be customisable, trial mechs are suppose to be temporary, I think the game sort of encourages you to buy and play with your first mech instead of just playing trial, but I do think trial mechs should have every play style available, to help new players decide on their first mech purchase.

In any event it’s a money thing, it’s by design, otherwise you’d be able to earn exp with trial mechs as well.

I think the payouts are “ok”, here’s the thing, I really doubt a new player would be worried about optimisation, more likely than not they would be happy to play with stock, which is what I did when I started.

As for consumables, do tier 5 players use them?

[Zombiesbum]

I believe that the match making does not exclusively match t5 with t5. Even when I was in t5 I saw consumables used all the time. I'm not sure if that is suppose to be an argument to keep consumables as a priced item. If something is overpowered or underpowered, putting a price on it does not somehow make it otherwise. And like I said there are people who use consumables like candy and then there are those of us who need c-bills.

No, the payouts are not "ok". Especially when premium is thrown into players faces to get more c-bills. It's designed to strangle new players into paying money. That's not how to encourage new players to invest into a game. No player goes into a free to play game thinking, yes I want to spend money on this game before I have even gotten into it. They are even less likely to if they feel they are being forced to pay to get anywhere. It feels pay to win to them even when it's technically not. They are even less likely to support a game that has blatant QoL issues and bugs left unresolved.
I have not financially supported this game because of these reasons, And I will continue on that path until they are addressed.

Even when you get max payouts the grind is very long, less so if you have experience in mech building. Like I said, 23 mechs (and their builds) took me 1000 hours more or less, and part of that is because I didn't know how to build a good mech that suited my play, so even when the payouts look "ok" on paper, realise that new players ARE going to spend twice as much rebuilding mechs.

And lastly trial mechs. You slightly contradict yourself here. On one hand you say that trial mechs shouldn't be customizable, but on the only hand you say they should have every play style available.
In any case, to suggest that players won't buy mechs if they can customize trial mechs is a load of horse ****. If that was the case then nobody would buy champions in league of legends. After all, they can play the free to play champions without restriction.
You also forget that trial mechs are on a rotation. It's not like someone can just play the same trial mech indefinitely.


Not targeted towards Moochachoo unless applies. Anyone whos reading and thinks; "well I had to grind all that time, so why should other new players get it easy" you need to understand the flaw in that logic. And I know you guys who think this are out there. If a new player stops playing because of poor design choice (and it is poor design choice), who loses? The player who hasn't yet invested in the game? ORRRRR MAYBE it's you who's invested time and money into a game that actively discourages free to play players and new players?
If you really think that strangling new/free players until they pay money to play a free to play game is the answer then by all means show me a game where that has worked and is as popular as say LoL, Dota or Fortnite.

Mechwarrior is one of the only mech FPS games on the market, yet it's population does not reflect that. PGI needs to wake up and realise that their game is a failure in that regard. And as harsh as my critique may seem I want this game to stop being so unpopular for my benefit. Having more players, even free to play players automatically makes a game better. Better match making, less biased feedback, more game mode opportunities and so on.

Edited by Zombiesbum, 21 May 2018 - 02:46 PM.

[MechaBattler]

If mechbays didn't cost anything. You could literally play the game completely free. That should be pretty obvious as to why that limitation is there. I think at best you could make a case for them adding a high c-bill option to buy mechbays.

But four bays gives you enough to master what you need to play in faction play. Which will allow you to do a tour of every faction to get the first mechbay reward for each. With so many factions you can earn more the mechbays without paying.

For trial mechs I think it would help if players could at least skill out 46 points. To bridge the gap a bit. But still give players an incentive to use their own mechs. The bigger problem with trial mechs is that they're based on old builds. Especially for the IS. They need to update trial mechs with new tech. Especially as XL engines for IS builds can be a death trap and LFEs offer a better alternative.

Player's income is based on their performance. The learning curve can be steep for new players. 20 matches isn't enough to become good for all new players. I suppose they could extend the cadet bonus. That seems the only way to improve on it without giving established player even more cash advantage. But ultimately it's a balancing act to keep the game going.

[Moochachoo]

well alright we can use league as an example, in league play style would be the role each character plays, like carry, jungle, support, even though champions don’t play exactly the same, you can still more or less be able to play any of those roles from the free champions.

This is what I mean when I say trial mechs should have all the play style, some LRM boats, brawlers, snipers, scouts etc...so I don’t see how I have contradicted myself.

Also this game has the FTP model, you can grind or pay money to skip it, how many games do you think it would take to unlock every single champion in league? Yeah that’s right.

The only limiting factor for it to be a completely FTP game is the mechbay, I for one won’t mind it disappearing.

Edited by Moochachoo, 21 May 2018 - 04:25 PM.

[TheArisen]

I agree somewhat but this is what I'd do.
1. Give new players at least 8 Mech bays for free to start
2. Increase cadet bonus to 50 matches
3. Make new player missions that help them explore different mechs and playstyles. Award C-bills, MC(enough to buy a color and/or a one shot camo) & Mech bays
4. Pop-up after completing the tutorial and cadet bonus period encouraging them to join a unit and explaining the best ways to find one.

[Zombiesbum]

Moochacho
A ERL Battlemaster plays much more differently than a ERPPC warhawk. Both are sniper builds. Not only that but a 5 ERL BLR also plays differently to a 6 ERL BLR. If you want to include any play style you have to include every build. Thus why not just allow players to make their own?

It's like playing a free champion on league but with the forced recommended build. It doesn't tell you much about the champion you are playing, less so when you're getting your *** kicked due to the poorly optimized build. That's where MWO trial mechs are at.

Unlocking champions in league is MUCH quicker than building a working mech (as a new player) in MWO. To suggest otherwise is being ignorant at best. And even league is considered a grind. So what does that say about MWOs grind? Not only that but at least all players are paid the same on a team in league.
Imagine if LoL paid out based on kills and damage. Nobody would play support or lower damage champs. It would kill the game in an instant. MWO started with such a poor system but it's somehow fine as is because it's improved ever so slightly over the years? Please.


MechaBattler
Yes you can play for free. You can play a pay to win game for free and do reasonably well. Does it mean it should be immune to criticism because of it?

At one point I ran out of mech bays until I managed to buy the 50% off mech bays with saved up event MC. And I joined the game when mech bays were given away a lot.

Why 46 points for skill points? That makes no sense. That's like saying; "well we let you play this trial mech with half the fire power. HAVE FUN!"

If you really think people will stop or even slow down their mech purchases if trial mechs are customizable then you are fooling yourself.

"Players income is based on their performance", but I say; why? It makes just as much sense to pay set amounts (lore wise). Average out the total income in a game and split it evenly. This isn't even just about new players at this point. For example; If you are in a light mech and you pull 4 guys away while your team pushes, you are MVP of that match. But most likely you won't survive to get the damage and componets for as good of a payout as someone in the back getting free damage. Explain to me how that is acceptable. The current scoring system stifles team play in every way.

Edited by Zombiesbum, 22 May 2018 - 10:29 AM.

[BTGbullseye]

Zombiesbum, on 22 May 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

For example; If you are in a light mech and you pull 4 guys away while your team pushes, you are MVP of that match. But most likely you won't survive to get the damage and componets for as good of a payout as someone in the back getting free damage. Explain to me how that is acceptable.

Except that that is most likely a bunch of mop-up kills, not KMDD or solo kills. When that happens, it's not worth nearly as much, nor should it be.

[Zombiesbum]

BTGbullseye, on 22 May 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

Except that that is most likely a bunch of mop-up kills, not KMDD or solo kills. When that happens, it's not worth nearly as much, nor should it be.

Actually you get paid more for "mop up kills". Structure damage pays more than armour damage due to component destruction. But anyway it was just one example of many unmeasurable contributions. You surely know the point I'm making. No need to be cynical about unimportant details.

Edited by Zombiesbum, 22 May 2018 - 12:11 PM.

[TheArisen]

The grind isn't as bad as you think. WoT for example has some fairly serious grind but is a huge game.

Part of what makes a game fun is challenge and the ability to explore. If you get everything super easy then there is less satisfaction in it. MWO isn't perfect obviously but the grind is pretty tame compared to other F2P games.

I do have a question, what are you thinking is P2Win in MWO?

[Zombiesbum]

I beg to differ that WoT is anymore of a grind than MWO. Not only that but it runs better and does not have nearly as many unresolved bugs as MWO.

There is nothing hard about grinding. Any idiot can grind. Adding "grind" to a game does NOT create challenge. That is and never has been the purpose of that mechanic in games. Grindy mechanics are strictly provided to artificially lengthen a game and keep a player interested just enough to keep playing. Additionally it is also used to help players with learning the game mechanics, leveling in an RPG for example. But please do not confuse challenge with grind, that is straight up wrong. I also never suggested to remove the need to grind.

What makes you think I said MWO is pay to win?

Edited by Zombiesbum, 22 May 2018 - 06:23 PM.

[Moochachoo]

I don’t get what you are trying to say, of course one mech plays differently to another, just like how one support champion plays different to another support champion in league, that’s why they rotate.

Look at the end of the day, a game is either for you, or it isn’t for you, I think it is mostly fine right now, in fact ever since they made opening supply cache free, it has made the FTP aspect even better.

Not every game is for everyone, for example, I for one can never get in to EVE online, despite the things I hear about the game and the community, that game is a true grind, i once heard a joke that you would have to spend two years playing EVE before you begin to have fun, it has also been described as a full time job that you have to pay for.

EVE has its own niche community, MWO has its own niche community, if a new player feels the grind is too much, then clearly this game is not for them.

I mean think of the alternative, the devs can remove all cbill requirements, and allow everyone to use any mech and customise them however they like, do you believe this would be a reasonable approach to this game?

Honestly if that was what you were asking for, I’d probably offer more support.

Edited by Moochachoo, 22 May 2018 - 07:28 PM.

[TheArisen]

Zombiesbum, on 22 May 2018 - 06:14 PM, said:

I beg to differ that WoT is anymore of a grind than MWO. Not only that but it runs better and does not have nearly as many unresolved bugs as MWO.

There is nothing hard about grinding. Any idiot can grind. Adding "grind" to a game does NOT create challenge. That is and never has been the purpose of that mechanic in games. Grindy mechanics are strictly provided to artificially lengthen a game and keep a player interested just enough to keep playing. Additionally it is also used to help players with learning the game mechanics, leveling in an RPG for example. But please do not confuse challenge with grind, that is straight up wrong. I also never suggested to remove the need to grind.

What makes you think I said MWO is pay to win?

Your response to Mechabattler

[Zombiesbum]

Moochachoo, on 22 May 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

I don’t get what you are trying to say, of course one mech plays differently to another, just like how one support champion plays different to another support champion in league, that’s why they rotate.

What's your point? My original point is that you should be able to play any build on a rotating trial mech. But currently MWO is backwards in that regard, it would be stupid for league to force players to build recommended items on a rotating free champion. So why is it not stupid for MWO to do it?
The builds in trial mechs are often awful or at best sub-optimal. You think PGI will magically make good builds if they included "all play styles"? I don't think so.

A **** build on a good mech does not tell a player anything about that mech. Thus trial mechs as a mechanic is an utter failure.

Moochachoo, on 22 May 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

Not every game is for everyone, for example, I for one can never get in to EVE online, despite the things I hear about the game and the community, that game is a true grind, i once heard a joke that you would have to spend two years playing EVE before you begin to have fun, it has also been described as a full time job that you have to pay for.

EVE has its own niche community, MWO has its own niche community, if a new player feels the grind is too much, then clearly this game is not for them.

I mean think of the alternative, the devs can remove all cbill requirements, and allow everyone to use any mech and customise them however they like, do you believe this would be a reasonable approach to this game?

Honestly if that was what you were asking for, I’d probably offer more support.

I don't know what you are arguing against anymore. On one hand you seem to be arguing that the over grindy nature of the game is fine by contrasting Eve with MWO (eve also has a much higher population despite being so hard to really get into, almost as if it's a well made game despite the grind and steep learning curve). But then you say you'd support removing the grind all together. Make up your mind.

It seems to me you are arguing for arguments sake. Unless you have something constructive to say I'm done arguing with you as we will just be going round in circles at this point.

TheArisen, on 22 May 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Your response to Mechabattler

It was my response to you. What made you think otherwise? Rhetorical question.

Edited by Zombiesbum, 24 May 2018 - 04:39 PM.

[Moochachoo]

Trial mechs are temporary, you are focusing on the wrong things here, the play styles of the trial mechs are suppose to be a sample, you are suppose to buy mechs, this is the business model, yes they are suboptimal, this is by design.

I think you need to working on your reading comprehension, the point isn’t the grind itself, as I have stated, not every game is for everyone, some like it grindy others don’t, not every game has to appeal to the largest possible audience, if a new player doesn’t like the grind then the game isn’t for them, for me EVE was my limit.

My comment on no grind is suppose to be a hyperthetical scenario for you to think about, do you think it would be a reasonable game design for MWO to remove Cbill requirements? Please answer directly this time.

[Zombiesbum]

Moochachoo, on 24 May 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

Trial mechs are temporary, you are focusing on the wrong things here, the play styles of the trial mechs are suppose to be a sample, you are suppose to buy mechs, this is the business model, yes they are suboptimal, this is by design.

It's a **** design. Most players already know trial mechs are utter garbage.
It seems to me, maybe I am wrong on this, but it's like you are disagreeing purely for the sake of it. I cannot fathom why it would be a bad idea to improve gameplay in this way. And it would be an improvement.

Moochachoo, on 24 May 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

not every game is for everyone.

Evidently not. That is why I am making this suggestion. Because the game is not only "not for everyone" but for a very small select of players.

Moochachoo, on 24 May 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

My comment on no grind is suppose to be a hyperthetical scenario for you to think about, do you think it would be a reasonable game design for MWO to remove Cbill requirements? Please answer directly this time.

It's a pointless question which has nothing to do with the suggestions. I don't know why you'd want an answer.

Edited by Zombiesbum, 27 May 2018 - 12:01 AM.

[Darkstrand]

Having been through this new player experience recently, I can say the starting mechbays are pure bs and the payouts per match vs the cost of new mechs or even just changing omnipods to play something fresh is seriously offputting. It does feel like a stranglehold for money. I suggest bigger payouts and a cbill offering for mechbays.

Also let me make a point in that there is still an incentive to spend money without these. The staggered release on new mechs being premium merch before cbill purchase also the new mech events upon release already work together as a useful tool to encourage spending.

Edited by Darkstrand, 04 June 2018 - 08:04 AM.

[TheoLu]

Huge fail. I wrote up a thorough reply to this and was going to post it when the power cut out...

So here's a more summarized version which should still cover things adequately, hopefully.

Mech bays
You can get MANY mechbays with minimal effort doing scout drops in FP as a mercenary and for the different houses etc. With a little more effort, a lot of MC also.

Free MC comes about in significant quantities frequently enough. Since I began playing again in mid-Feb I got up to roughly 3k? MC from the events. Combine that with half-price mechbay sales and that's /20/ bays.

Keep in mind that, given the cost of mechs in C-bill terms, it'll take a significant amount of time for folks to flesh out their bays (even the 4 starting ones) anyway, so it's not like most people are truly hurting for bays in the first place.


Trial Mechs
Allowing that would negate folks' need to buy those mechs until they go out of rotation, the new rotation which may yield mechs which might still negate the need for them to buy those sorts of mechs. After all, you're talking about 4 different mechs per class; that's no shortage of variety if one could also customize them.

Payouts
I can only agree with part of this to a limited extent, but I suspect you've not taken the time to properly investigate what gives C-Bills since you believe damage to be the be-all, end-all of generating them.

Try hanging around with teammates and focusing fire on the same targets, and you'll quickly find that even if you're doing limited damage you still rack up loads of C-Bills. This is especially true if you run an AMS and *anyone* fires missiles in your nearby teammates' general direction.

It's easy to average 150k profit per match if you use only a UAV as your consumable, taking into account losses also, if you're a remotely-competent player and your W/L ratio is roughly 1. If it takes on average 8 minutes per match (MM + actual match time) that's 1.125mil C-Bills per hour, which is no small amount if you consider a few hours' play on a weekend will easily cover the cost of a sale mech of the higher cost tiers. Where's the pay-actual-money incentive for players in such a scenario, and PGI's income, then?


Consumables
UAVs used sensibly, with the appropriate skills, will actually more than pay for themselves a lot of the time. You've just got to know when it's a good idea to use 'em and when not. On my money-maker Cheetah my UAV almost always more than pays for itself off its own bonuses.

Sensible use of things like artillery strike could well, actually, have the consumables pay for themselves also since it could be the difference between you managing to take down a mech or not. Component destructions and KMDDs on light/medium mechs from a well-placed artillery strike are no joke on your paysheet.

As for 'separating old and new players' in terms of cost division, keep in mind just because someone drops 160k+ in consumables in a match doesn't mean they got much or any effect out of the things, and that they could still end up losing the match resulting in them losing a substantial amount of C-Bills.

I can't count the amount of times I've seen the other team span airstrikes and artillery strikes only to get (virtually) no hits out of the things, and put up UAVs which almost immediately get shot down or even in places where they didn't detect anything, only to get shot down. That's all wasted C-Bills and an impediment on their bill-generation for the session.

I also know there are many matches I play where, even though I can and sometimes do run 4 or more consumables, I'll either run only one or end up not using any irrespective of how many I have. Thus, player age doesn't necessarily have as much to do with anything. You could argue "but they have an inherent trump-card advantage", but that wouldn't be true either, because a new player can have precisely that same advantage. The only difference is the amount of 'care' in whether or not one uses it in terms of their bill-reserve; which, again, with sensible use isn't inherently an issue anyway.

Besides. One of two things is true:
1. Those players grinded up their c-bills
2. Those players paid for mechpacks and their subsequent bill-generating events or paid otherwise to have those c-bills

If you don't like that 'older players' have that perceived advantage, 'suffer' the same thing they had to to get the same advantage. Grind for it, or pay for it.


QoL
Only thing I can agree on. I'm completely demotivated to spend any money on this game given the glaring technical issues it's had in a variety of aspects since beta. One of the most annoying for me is invisible walls and ceilings in places there's no good reason you shouldn't be able to pass when jump-jetting, completely screwing one over if you haven't memorized their invisible bounding boxes yet and don't remain keenly aware of them in the future when trying to speedily navigate an area.

[Akillius]

Agree 100% with TheoLu this game's developers are extremely lenient and tremendously generous with letting 100%-free players get free MC, and free mech bays, and even free mechs. Heck some games won't even let 100%-free users add friends!

And ALL games more then 6 months old have same complaints about older players having some perceived advantage.
An advantage because they've played longer (spent their time) to get what they got...

Oh but there's MWO players that purchase with cash money...
Yeah and they only get early access to mechs that are equally Meh as the hundreds of mechs already in game (which do not require any cash payment just cbills), and the premium time only lets them EARN more cbills and xp faster...
For example the $10 2018 tournament supporter pack gives +10% XP and +10% cBills boost.
HOWEVER tourny pack owners must still play to get the xp and cbills.

By the OP's logic new players should expect to get a free tournament pack FFS!

Games only give 2 options, and only 2 options:
A.) Spend the time, to save money.
B.) Spend the money, to save time.

I guess there's option C.) cheating. But that accomplishes nothing and will lead to ban.

[Darkstrand]

Keep in mind that people don't come try the game because an event popped up that offers MC. People are going to come at times when there is no event, play for a few weeks and then get bored then quit because the cost of the initial start is abysmal.

Playing for months or years before the amazing generosity of PGI (of which I do agree) starts to rear it's head is not a good example of the game state for someone completely new. They come in, see the insurmountable costs to play whether free or not and decide it will be impossible to accomplish immediate goals then proceed to look elsewhere for entertainment.

Having achievements for example actually give you millions of cbills would be a good start for a feedback loop the current rewards suck! When the cadet bonus wears off, you end up feeling lost and the despair from previous paragraph sets in.