41 replies to this topic

[IIXxXII]

Spheroid, on 21 May 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

Its not an age thing. Most people who enjoy or financially support this IP are middle aged men.

You claim you don't play many games. That is not an indicator of youth. You are either part of that same demographic or you are on the north side of that age split, i.e. a senior citizen. Is there any truth to my theory?

I played multiplayer battletech solaris on gamestorm and aol. I guess I am pretty old, even if I forget sometimes. I've been here since maybe 2015. I still don't get the resentment and anger @ PGI. I have tried plenty of new games and many of them were terrible in comparison with MWO. Even if I buy other games I always end up back here. This is one of the few games with decent replay value which remains a somewhat fulfilling experience.

People might be fustrated but I actually like some of the things PGI did. So maybe I'm just crazy.

Edited by IIXxXII, 21 May 2018 - 02:04 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The problem is that PGI never finished this game. I am not sure what happened but somewhere along the way they decided to give up on really doing anything to really make this game a success and that leaves a ton of holes that players would like to be filled. Because the devs aren't really doing much to improve the game or offer any kind of real roadmap to improvement, player A tends to try to create this roadmap themselves and end up trying to move the game along their vision of what it should be, which happens to be different from Player B envisions, which is different from player C's vision and so on.

The sad thing about this is there are quite a few dedicate fans who actually enjoy this game and would love to see it turn into the game we all thought we were going to get back when this game was announced but PGI just doesn't seem so see the big picture that the rest of us do. I guess maybe it is because we are all on that lonely little island.

[Khobai]

Quote

I guess maybe it is because we are all on that lonely little island.

because its free


[redacted]

Edited by Tina Benoit, 22 May 2018 - 10:17 AM.
nonconstructive/false ad using PGI logo

[Asym]

Viktor Drake, on 21 May 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

The problem is that PGI never finished this game. I am not sure what happened but somewhere along the way they decided to give up on really doing anything to really make this game a success and that leaves a ton of holes that players would like to be filled. Because the devs aren't really doing much to improve the game or offer any kind of real roadmap to improvement, player A tends to try to create this roadmap themselves and end up trying to move the game along their vision of what it should be, which happens to be different from Player B envisions, which is different from player C's vision and so on.

The sad thing about this is there are quite a few dedicate fans who actually enjoy this game and would love to see it turn into the game we all thought we were going to get back when this game was announced but PGI just doesn't seem so see the big picture that the rest of us do. I guess maybe it is because we are all on that lonely little island.

I don't think it's a lack of the "big picture"... They have a small niche market and they are making money despite themselves and that works for them.

What they started was doomed to fail or just be status quo because they bit off way more than they realized.... And when the realization hit, there was no way to fix what couldn't be fixed....without starting all over again and here we are !

Solaris: because it is 50% simpler to operate than faction play because of the scope of the battle space itself and no teams... It was a simplistic answer that solve a lot of short term issues and prolonged the revenue cycle till MW5 drops.

Many of us are Boomers and have been playing video games since their civilian inception and military video games way before the civilians had access to games.....

Takes money to improve the hotels on an Island.... And, PGI doesn't have access to that kind of money.

[yrrot]

Viktor Drake, on 21 May 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

The problem is that PGI never finished this game. I am not sure what happened but somewhere along the way they decided to give up on really doing anything to really make this game a success and that leaves a ton of holes that players would like to be filled. Because the devs aren't really doing much to improve the game or offer any kind of real roadmap to improvement, player A tends to try to create this roadmap themselves and end up trying to move the game along their vision of what it should be, which happens to be different from Player B envisions, which is different from player C's vision and so on.

The sad thing about this is there are quite a few dedicate fans who actually enjoy this game and would love to see it turn into the game we all thought we were going to get back when this game was announced but PGI just doesn't seem so see the big picture that the rest of us do. I guess maybe it is because we are all on that lonely little island.

To be fair to PGI, I don't think converting this game into the game people were hoping for is a good goal at all. They got rather pigeonholed by decisions that were made super early in MWO (things like Cryengine and some of their base implementation). I think PGI is seeing a bigger picture than MWO in MW5. A lot of what won't work in MWO's engine can be built from scratch for MW5 with UE. MWO is going to continue to be what it has been all along, a functional arena shooter with big stompy robots. It isn't perfect, but it does what's on the box. Though, the box is a bit different than we all hoped.

[Colonel Presumptuous]

IIXxXII, on 21 May 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

I don't play a lot of games. Is it like this everywhere?

I think that might be the issue you havent or dont play many games.

(edit:- Seems you are an older gamer but still if you dont play games all that much)

Some of us have been playing ALOT of PC games for almost 30+ years across all genres. Some of us have even wanted to get into the industry or actually did (I wanted to until i read up and talked to people already in the industry about just how ****** it is to work in areas like modeling and animation, with the grind and unpayed overtime in the larger studios and the nightmares of being an employee of publishers like EA or Activision are legendary) so we as players and modders over this time pick up alot of knowledge from seeing what works and what doesnt simply by playing,

We see the devs that get it right over the years and devs that get it horribly wrong. Some of us might have even dabbled or gone full into modding of games and their engines for numerous years (i did 20-15 years back for a number of years on a number of games, nothing big but it gave me an understanding of the work required and what could be done with good optimizing, good design and using the limits of an engine to its fullest) this gives us a perspective of what can be done a player who doesnt know these things wouldnt see or understand and its surprising how often a games modding community can improve incredibly a game or create better content for free compared to the devs that actually got payed to work on it, and in more or usually alot less amount of time in some cases...

So yes, alot of us might be armchair backseat game devs, but you'd be surprised that some of us actually understand a thing or two about it and its inner workings or have talent in the areas we criticize.

To me as a few others have said, we like the IP, we love the idea of the game but the direction and decisions PGI seem to take on many occasions just baffle us and irritate us to no end... personally i just wish they'd take the plunge and move to the Unreal engine, for all the good and the bad that would entail. I think they seriously hamstrung themselves with their engine choice.

[TWIAFU]

Bud Crue, on 21 May 2018 - 01:12 PM, said:

And so, while it is indeed his/PGI’s game, it is our childhood, our collective love of this IP, our hopes and dreams of a F2P Mechwarrior based game that we want so much to be what it could be and what PGI once promised it would be. That is the “weird” thing that is going on here: way more emotional investment in a game than is perhaps healthy, but there it is.

Well fing said.

How can one not be invested, in whatever form, with something that you or I have spent three decades in? Not sure about you, but that is nearly half my entire lifetime.

Take Star Wars. Lot of us remember seeing it, Ep.4, on the big screen. After all that time, we all have some pretty strong views on how things have gone one way or another - just say Jar Jar for example.

We nerds are a passionate and opinionated bunch. If not for that passion we would not be here, not expressing those views.

TBH, I would be more shocked for someone to not be passionate about BT/MWO after spending three decades fighting for or against the Inner Sphere.

[Koniving]

Ensaine, on 21 May 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

Hey... New Guy...

Have a read here... then come with any questions......

https://www.tiki-tok...-10-23_13:32:00!

Shame that only stops at 2014... some the best (worst) stuff happened in 2015...

[Erronius]

IIXxXII, on 21 May 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

I don't play a lot of games. Is it like this everywhere?

Is it a generation gap / age demographic difference?

I've never seen anyone be so fanatical about thrusting their views in other peoples faces, so consistently over a prolonged period of time.

I've seen this happen with numerous online games going back into the '90s. In the best cases, you might get some good feedback but winnowing that from all the complaining can be difficult. In the worst cases you either get such a toxic forum environment that the Devs leave completely and ignore the cesspool, or alternatively you end up with Devs being swayed by players to the point that really bad "great ideas" get implemented, and if those Devs ever decide to later go against the vocal forum population that they once catered to, then all hell breaks loose.

Examples that come to mind:

Verant/SOE catering to the hardcore raid guilds/zonebreakers and trying to keep them happy when that might never have been possible, and then fudging multiple expansions so badly that when EQ2 and WOW released there was a massive exodus from the game that EQ really never recovered from

Vanguard:SOH/Brad McQuaid: incredibly passionate (and possibly mentally unbalanced) forum userbase that wanted extremely harsh features (bordering on the masochistic), and after catering to them to some degree, the forum itself nearly achieved spontaneous nuclear fission when the Devs announced that they would add such extremely carebear features as...minimaps. Not even kidding.

TWIAFU, on 21 May 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

The biggest problem with so many people and so many views is that it all turns to noise for them, the DEVs, and it becomes unusable.

This is pretty damned accurate.

[Nightbird]

A game without player feedback will not get better. It doesn't mean all player feedback is right, it's like mining, gotta separate the diamonds from the dirt.

[LordNothing]

some of us are programmers and actually have worked on games before, others have experience modding (and frankly its the same damn thing nowadays with off the shelf game engines with sdk tools built right in, just one group doesnt get paid). its not like games are hard.

[LT. HARDCASE]

"They are the ones making the game so they must know better than you."

Sorry but PGI has destroyed that benefit of doubt a hundred times over, literally. There are people in charge, who can be specifically named, who have literally proven that they are in over their heads, and should never have been given charge over a multiplayer game. This is no longer opinion.

The problem is they are too god damned prideful and bullheaded to admit this, and to bring in experienced analysts who can help them. They literally spite their community with every bad balance decision.

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 21 May 2018 - 06:03 PM.

[Anjian]

IIXxXII, on 21 May 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

I don't play a lot of games. Is it like this everywhere?

Is it a generation gap / age demographic difference?

I've never seen anyone be so fanatical about thrusting their views in other peoples faces, so consistently over a prolonged period of time.

Pretty much so, especially when games enter a mid life crisis, which tends to be pretty---more like deadly---serious in any game's life cycle.

Developers --- and its been shown time again and again --- can be the game's worst enemy.

Edited by Anjian, 22 May 2018 - 12:09 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

IIXxXII, on 21 May 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

I've never seen anyone be so fanatical about thrusting their views in other peoples faces, so consistently over a prolonged period of time.

This guy seems to be new to the human race more than anything. Iv got some Jehovas Witnesses that would just love to meet you and hand you some pamplets with artwork of children playing with lions on the side of it.

Jokes aside, you have passionate players up against 'bottom dollar devs' I don't know what your expecting to be honest its basically like sitting shotgun with your 90 year old grandma and her two inch thick cokebottle glasses as she putters down the road like shes in NASCAR trying to see over the steering wheel, you would be stupid not to give some 'suggestions'.

[Toothless]

Someone has already posted the mismanagement timeline, which builds on this point:

So much of the ill will and ire has been a result of the sheer disingenuous nature of the communication between PGI/IGP and the player base since the beginning, which rose to some pretty astronomical proportions in the first several years that its really hard to just 'forgive and forget', especially when you still see consistent moronical development decisions.

Edited by Toothless, 22 May 2018 - 03:32 AM.

[El Bandito]

IIXxXII, on 21 May 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

I've been here since maybe 2015. I still don't get the resentment and anger @ PGI. =

That underlined part is the issue. The vast majority of the old guard were supremely pissed at stupid things PGI did between 2012-2014, and holds healthy amount of skepticism/grudge since. As for me being a back seat developer, I have been modding Total War games since MTW2, and even I know how to make sensible changes in an XML sheet and make improvements on the game balance, without taking a year or longer.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 May 2018 - 04:37 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Nightbird, on 21 May 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

A game without player feedback will not get better. It doesn't mean all player feedback is right, it's like mining, gotta separate the diamonds from the dirt.

Damn near impossible to get actionable feedback from an open forum.

I will draw upon the last game that I was part of the private DEV server;

We had a couple dozen hand chosen to participate. Picked from various playstyle pools to get a good sample of opinions. Server was open to us 24/7 with most recent DEV build to do REAL playtesting and offer feedback. Once or twice a week all of us would meet with the DEVs themselves, group up, and play thru the content. The DEVs would watch us and listen to how we played while they were quiet. Once done, we would offer feedback verbally and written. We would ask question of how and why and we would get answered. Those answers were valuable, not only in the honesty, but behind the curtain insights of how they needed to do things to get to the results needed.

After our feedback, they would act on it! They would make changes and tweaks, put out another build and the processs repeats until it was pushed Live. There was trust between those of us that gave honest effort to make what we were testing the best and the DEVs that made it. If they could not act of our feedback, they would explain why.

We did not do this for money, there was none. We did not do this for recognition, we were under a NDA. We did for love of the game, those we played with, respect earned for those that made it.

The experience would have to be something special for me to spend TEN YEARS in it and still a proud Mournlander today.

[Variant1]

Ensaine, on 21 May 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

Hey... New Guy...

Have a read here... then come with any questions......

https://www.tiki-tok...-10-23_13:32:00!

Dont listen to him new guy that site is bad/lame. Most of the red dots aka "pgi dun goofed" moments are complaints rather than actual problems. Some of them are true but most are minor and fail to mention their later patching. The real problem begins after 2014 when pgi broke their servers with pheonix hawk update that causes random server connection losses and discos

[Imperius]

Did some college classes in game design and have tinkered with the various free engines you can download and use. I am by no means a developer nor do I have any experience in any of the tasks and limitations. However I do know what a person at my level can do with some youtube videos and some free time. Then I just say well if I can do this in a day they can probably do what I did in a few hours.

If I was to go over all the things I have brought up as feedback I would say I have been asking for what PGI is more than capable of completing. Although money doesn't make my opinion more important. I am heavily invested into MWO and MW5 and their futures are important to me. I have played games for over 28 years, at least that puts me at age 3 when I started, which could be slightly off but I was raised with older gamers. Over all these years and listening to my friends and applying my own feedback. I would say I have a pretty good understanding of what works with gamers and what doesn't.

Edited by Imperius, 22 May 2018 - 08:45 AM.

[Metus regem]

I try not to criticize them too much, as I am thankful that they were able to breath new life into the IP after it was left to rot by Microsoft. That being said, I do wonder about some of the decisions that have been made that I have witnessed in the four-ish years I've been with MWO.

That being said, I'm not above criticizing [Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 22 May 2018 - 10:02 AM.
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