55 replies to this topic

[ANOM O MECH]

Eisenhorne, on 24 May 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

MischiefSC is KCOM, right? I was on the receiving end of that LBK rush a few days back, it's way harder to deal with than I thought if you execute it right. Good stuff.

That's my point. It's only scary when Kcom does it.

Everyone else gets rekt.

So this is not something I would advise new players to do or try. Other units of coarse makes sense to practice tactics that are effective.

Edited by tker 669, 24 May 2018 - 04:59 PM.

[MischiefSC]

tker 669, on 24 May 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

That's my point. It's only scary when Kcom does it.

Everyone else gets rekt.

So this is not something I would advise new players to do or try. Other units of coarse makes sense to practice tactics that are effective.

Everything a new player tries is going to go poorly. Not like range trading is going to turn out much better.

The LBK is still an excellent mech; speed and maneuverability with 6xSRM6 while being reasonably tanky is never a bad option. Especially if the map has decent open spaces you can push in and dig the back out of enemies. They can either turn to face you, turning their back to your teammates or they can let you shoot their back.

LBKs absolutely are best in groups though. No question. If your teammates are all in slow mechs then the mobility advantage is largely wasted.

Brawling, mid range trades, long range trades, pushing, turtling, these are all strats that have their place against different teams and on different maps and modes. It's true most teams tend to gravitate toward one or two of them but it would be false to say any of them are inherently superior. You see a lot of trading in comp play because tonnage limits, duping limits and trading is the safest way to play most of the time.

Those are all skill sets you want to learn though.

[K O Z A K]

Clan srm6s are currently trash, they're only barely usable if you're fighting at ridiculously short ranges, and most good teams won't allow you to get so close without taking a lot of damage. Imo if you're going to LBK rush try it with MPL, you can target components so much better. There's a significant element of fear to LBK pushes though. When an average pug group gets smashed into by a large skilled brawling group (IS or Clan) they crap their pants and are unable to fight. This is what makes LBK rushes so effective in most FP drops.

MischiefSC, on 24 May 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Brawling, mid range trades, long range trades, pushing, turtling, these are all strats that have their place against different teams and on different maps and modes. It's true most teams tend to gravitate toward one or two of them but it would be false to say any of them are inherently superior. You see a lot of trading in comp play because tonnage limits, duping limits and trading is the safest way to play most of the time.

Those are all skill sets you want to learn though.

so much this. If you want to win more often than lose, you have no choice but to learn all styles of play, and why wouldn't you, it makes gameplay more diverse

[MischiefSC]

Hazeclaw, on 24 May 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

Clan srm6s are currently trash, they're only barely usable if you're fighting at ridiculously short ranges, and most good teams won't allow you to get so close without taking a lot of damage. Imo if you're going to LBK rush try it with MPL, you can target components so much better. There's a significant element of fear to LBK pushes though. When an average pug group gets smashed into by a large skilled brawling group (IS or Clan) they crap their pants and are unable to fight. This is what makes LBK rushes so effective in most FP drops.



so much this. If you want to win more often than lose, you have no choice but to learn all styles of play, and why wouldn't you, it makes gameplay more diverse

We beat great teams with LBKs all the time. Clan SRMs are standard fare for some of the best brawlers in the game, from the Orion IIC to the LBK to, well, any Clan brawler you want. Clan SRMs are really strong because 1/2 the weight and size. Look over the MRBC end of match screencaps for this season; I was surprised to see LBKs in every single drop save, obviously, drop 1. In fact in some drops the were the dup.

It's not a bad idea to have a couple of people in a LBK push with the MPL build, if you have the loyality variant with JJs you can remove the JJ pods and get 6 MPLs on it. However the splat build is overall stronger because, well, 70+ alpha obliterates stuff and 12 mechs all going almost 100 KPH, reasonably tanky and puking up 70+ damage on stuff dissolves things.

LBKs are one of the strongest Clan heavies. EBJ and HBR and Gyr are strongest trade heavies, Orion and LBK are strongest brawl heavies. We would stick to Orion IICs because they are just so damn tanky but saving the tonnage by going to LBKs lets you bring heavier mechs in later waves and, well, they're so damn fast.

Clan SRMs are plenty strong though.

[Bishop Six]

For all IS:

Dont use the AnnihiLATERS in attack...dudes i have no time for that.

[ANOM O MECH]

MischiefSC, on 24 May 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Everything a new player tries is going to go poorly. Not like range trading is going to turn out much better.

The LBK is still an excellent mech; speed and maneuverability with 6xSRM6 while being reasonably tanky is never a bad option. Especially if the map has decent open spaces you can push in and dig the back out of enemies. They can either turn to face you, turning their back to your teammates or they can let you shoot their back.

LBKs absolutely are best in groups though. No question. If your teammates are all in slow mechs then the mobility advantage is largely wasted.

Brawling, mid range trades, long range trades, pushing, turtling, these are all strats that have their place against different teams and on different maps and modes. It's true most teams tend to gravitate toward one or two of them but it would be false to say any of them are inherently superior. You see a lot of trading in comp play because tonnage limits, duping limits and trading is the safest way to play most of the time.

Those are all skill sets you want to learn though.

Again no.

New players we are talking about here. These new solo's bringing their Linebackers along in their uncoordinated pug match is stupid. Really stupid. You even say why it is dumb in above quote. Most likely they will be alone in an undergunned mech that generally runs hotter than a lot of other popular choices. New player may benefit from the speed to get out of trouble but will struggle getting into brawl range when alone facing all of that IS armor.

The state of srms as well especially on tonnage starved Linebacker which doesn't get artie makes it super inefficient at actually killing stuff. You don't realise or refuse to accept this because of your experience running them in packs in which they become much, much more effective.

Most of the builds are also very short range. Recent med pulse nerf on range definitely hurt the LBK much, much more than my 9 med pulse Ebon.

As far as what is superior or claiming that saying some tactics are or not is something I am not going to debate with you. Instead I am going with Proton and Fusion's opinion as well as the many other really recognisable players I drop with who are deep into the 99th percentile and what they have to say about the state brawling is currently in. As well as my own experience on top of that, which as recently as yesterday an MS group barely scrapped out a win on Alpine domination against a pure pug team doing a LBK rush.

Oh and just on the outside chance you think that I am blind due to being some sort of Linebacker hater, it is one of my favourite mechs. Of the BCMC guys I have the most of them and use them the most by quite a large margin. I run a prime with 2ppc's that not long ago I put up 2300 damage in that mech alone. Also frequently run Redline with six pulses and it is consistently good for a thousand if I play it carefully and right since I will likely be alone doing so. Even have the six srm version a couple of times on two accounts and even had success with my weirdo 6 srm 4 with artie that I seem to be the only one I know of that runs.

When talking about new players running in CW, the best advice is to go with Ebons or Hellbringers and a solid medium. They sync up with teams well and are much more forgiving. Don't want new guys in assaults and relying on the strength of a crit lynx when those mechs are only really strong in the hands of experienced players. This is the same thing with the Linebacker.

I mean maybe your thinking might have some validity if you could convince pugs and new players en masse to adopt them, and the tactics that go with them. That won't happen though and of the Linebackers I see running around in the hands of players other than Kcom, most of those in the wild are running lurms.

[TWIAFU]

Bishop Six, on 25 May 2018 - 12:11 AM, said:

For all IS:

Dont use the AnnihiLATERS in attack...dudes i have no time for that.

You can, but only if it is followed by three Urbies....

[Eisenhorne]

Bishop Six, on 25 May 2018 - 12:11 AM, said:

For all IS:

Dont use the AnnihiLATERS in attack...dudes i have no time for that.

It's not so bad on smaller, tight attack maps like Grim Portico. On larger attack maps, yea it's bad. Its only a REAL problem when people bring 30 KPH annihilators and don't immediately start moving towards the gate. If you're going to bring an Annihilator, it -needs- a 300 class engine, and you gotta start moving the second boots hit the ground.

[K O Z A K]

MischiefSC, on 24 May 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

We beat great teams with LBKs all the time. Clan SRMs are standard fare for some of the best brawlers in the game, from the Orion IIC to the LBK to, well, any Clan brawler you want. Clan SRMs are really strong because 1/2 the weight and size. Look over the MRBC end of match screencaps for this season; I was surprised to see LBKs in every single drop save, obviously, drop 1. In fact in some drops the were the dup.

It's not a bad idea to have a couple of people in a LBK push with the MPL build, if you have the loyality variant with JJs you can remove the JJ pods and get 6 MPLs on it. However the splat build is overall stronger because, well, 70+ alpha obliterates stuff and 12 mechs all going almost 100 KPH, reasonably tanky and puking up 70+ damage on stuff dissolves things.

LBKs are one of the strongest Clan heavies. EBJ and HBR and Gyr are strongest trade heavies, Orion and LBK are strongest brawl heavies. We would stick to Orion IICs because they are just so damn tanky but saving the tonnage by going to LBKs lets you bring heavier mechs in later waves and, well, they're so damn fast.

Clan SRMs are plenty strong though.

clan srm6 spread is hilarious, you can't hit what you're aiming at unless you're at point blank range, at 250m its like sandblasting with mrms at 500. I mean you can certainly make it work, especially in groups, but imo it's inferior to lasers and is generally only good for dmg farming

[MischiefSC]

tker 669, on 25 May 2018 - 02:47 AM, said:

Again no.

New players we are talking about here. These new solo's bringing their Linebackers along in their uncoordinated pug match is stupid. Really stupid. You even say why it is dumb in above quote. Most likely they will be alone in an undergunned mech that generally runs hotter than a lot of other popular choices. New player may benefit from the speed to get out of trouble but will struggle getting into brawl range when alone facing all of that IS armor.

The state of srms as well especially on tonnage starved Linebacker which doesn't get artie makes it super inefficient at actually killing stuff. You don't realise or refuse to accept this because of your experience running them in packs in which they become much, much more effective.

Most of the builds are also very short range. Recent med pulse nerf on range definitely hurt the LBK much, much more than my 9 med pulse Ebon.

As far as what is superior or claiming that saying some tactics are or not is something I am not going to debate with you. Instead I am going with Proton and Fusion's opinion as well as the many other really recognisable players I drop with who are deep into the 99th percentile and what they have to say about the state brawling is currently in. As well as my own experience on top of that, which as recently as yesterday an MS group barely scrapped out a win on Alpine domination against a pure pug team doing a LBK rush.

Oh and just on the outside chance you think that I am blind due to being some sort of Linebacker hater, it is one of my favourite mechs. Of the BCMC guys I have the most of them and use them the most by quite a large margin. I run a prime with 2ppc's that not long ago I put up 2300 damage in that mech alone. Also frequently run Redline with six pulses and it is consistently good for a thousand if I play it carefully and right since I will likely be alone doing so. Even have the six srm version a couple of times on two accounts and even had success with my weirdo 6 srm 4 with artie that I seem to be the only one I know of that runs.

When talking about new players running in CW, the best advice is to go with Ebons or Hellbringers and a solid medium. They sync up with teams well and are much more forgiving. Don't want new guys in assaults and relying on the strength of a crit lynx when those mechs are only really strong in the hands of experienced players. This is the same thing with the Linebacker.

I mean maybe your thinking might have some validity if you could convince pugs and new players en masse to adopt them, and the tactics that go with them. That won't happen though and of the Linebackers I see running around in the hands of players other than Kcom, most of those in the wild are running lurms.

LBKs are strong because they are quick, which makes them good for new players. SRMs are good for new players because Clan lasers have a long burn time. If someone has great aim and great map awareness they absolutely can and should, if pugging in FW, take a mid-range poke deck that you can push/receive a push with. That's rarely a new player. EBJ is great for that role, HBR is pretty strong too especially if you're on a map with long enough range to make the ECM worthwhile.

LBK is a solid choice because it's fast, which helps you recover from bad positioning. It's passably durable for a Clan heavy. It has a big alpha that doesn't require great accuracy to do damage with. Honestly the only thing that takes less skill than an LBK to use decently is an LRM boat. Biggest problem for a new player is patience as you need to either wait for the enemy to close or your team to close or be able to figure out how/where to close to use it. Same could be said of the Orion.

LBK was one of the most common heavies in this seasons MRBC in every division. Even got the dup several times from good teams (like 228). Brawling is not nearly as good an idea in most drops on most maps in MRBC or league play of any sort specifically because of the rules in league play (1 dup, tonnage restrictions, conquest, etc) however FW doesn't have those same issues.

Range trading is ideal for top 1% of players because they don't miss and it's safer. For everyone else it has a reduced rate of return because if you don't land your early hits you don't have the damage lead to win against a push. It's why brawling is more common (and successful) in lower divisions than higher ones. That also changes in FW because everyone has a 4 mech deep pool of armor and isn't required to take a mix of tonnages every drop. However it's also fair to say that the top 12 players would win just as handily against anyone else in 12 brawlers, or LRMs and spotters for that matter as they do in 12 trade mechs.

Hazeclaw, on 25 May 2018 - 05:27 AM, said:

clan srm6 spread is hilarious, you can't hit what you're aiming at unless you're at point blank range, at 250m its like sandblasting with mrms at 500. I mean you can certainly make it work, especially in groups, but imo it's inferior to lasers and is generally only good for dmg farming

It's slightly worse than IS SRMs, for which you carry 2x the firepower for the same tonnage. Lasers for Clans work in QP great and work in FW when the other team doesn't push or lets you decide where the engagement happens. If they don't play along it gets iffy. Also speed is the best response the Clans have to higher IS armor/structure. Clan SRMs are the cornerstone of Clan brawling builds and for good reason. Exception would be the LBX40 HBK which has a narrow (but very strong) place in some maps.

[ccrider]

You people doubting srm linebackers are heretics of the highest order.

[MischiefSC]

IS has some of the strongest brawlers in the game. IS SRMs are, launcher for launcher, better than Clan SRM launchers. IS big ballistic boats (Dat ANNI) are incredibly strong for brawling.

For FW however where you have to pick Clan mechs if you're on Clan side, LBK is a really strong option. 6xSRM6 out-punches most IS brawlers under the Cyclops, especially for the heat. Orion is tankier and carries ballistics but the LBX20 isn't much more useful at range than CSRMs. While MPLs can be good they're not significantly rangier than SRMs and a LBK is fast enough to cross the difference in moments.

For my pugs though I'd rather they be in mechs fast enough to actually get back to the team when they realize they've wandered off and hits hard enough that when they walk up to and stare at the enemy they get more than 50 pts of damage out of their mech. Two alphas, even spread all over, is over 140 damage per mech, so 560 for the match. That would be an improvement out of most Clan pugs LRM decks over 4 mechs.

Edited by MischiefSC, 25 May 2018 - 04:33 PM.

[ccrider]

The Orion IIc is an abomination against all that's holy. The one true Onion turns it's head disdainfully whenever it is compared to the knock off version.

[K O Z A K]

yeah IS srms are only slightly less bad than clan srms, If you're going IS brawling and looking to quickly kill mechs in FP there's no reason not to do hgauss/dakka/mpl/ml, unless you want to get high damage numbers with mrms/srms/lrms

I would disagree that MPL doesn't have much of a range advantage over csrm6s, and I think it's easier to use for newer players. With srm6s the spread is just too bad until you're face planting the enemy, with mpls you can be hitting specific components almost out to medium trade range, and when you close in they're still strong. If you're going into distances where csrm6s become really effective you might as well take mass heavy smalls/er smalls and mgs. If you absolutely must run srm LBKs try out the 6xASRM4 setup, your numbers might go down a little, but you'll drop enemies more efficiently

Orion 2cs can be a lot of fun in numbers. Same as linebackers it relies on the enemy panicking and usually works, but they're outclassed by IS brawlers

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Eisenhorne, on 24 May 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

If you want the Inner Sphere drop deck of doom, just do ANH - WHM - WHM - COM.

Is best deck.

Alternatively,

CP-S - WHM - WHM - JVN / WLF.

WHM - WHM - WHM - BSW

VTR-9S - VTR-9S - VTR-9S - COM

(warhammer variants not listed because multiple variants fit. VTR-9A1 can be used in place of VTR-9S for a more midrange deck, but that one is one of my favorites for conquest)

Warhammer is so last year, have you met our new lord and savior: the roughneck?



Also, just to throw my opinion into the dumpster fire, CSRM6s may be half the weight of IS SRM6s (and actually a bit over half the weight if both have artemis) but generally the IS mech is packing 6 SRM6s with artemis upgrades while the linebackers are just packing 6 SRM6s without artemis that already have higher base spread. Would have to go down to the Bushwacker for the IS build to only have 6 SRM6 without artemis.

That said, the bushwacker is moving 82kph while the Catapults/Archers are running 70kph all with LFE. So Linebacker gets a 15-27kph speed advantage. Whether that's really worth the higher tonnage costs and weaker firepower or much weaker firepower and lower durability I can't really say for certain, but I personally prefer high firepower and high durability with lower speeds rather than cutting them for more, which probably influences my love of the Annihilator and IS mechs in general.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 25 May 2018 - 08:24 PM.

[Bishop Six]

MischiefSC, on 25 May 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

IS has some of the strongest brawlers in the game. IS SRMs are, launcher for launcher, better than Clan SRM launchers. IS big ballistic boats (Dat ANNI) are incredibly strong for brawling.

Believe me, on the other side of the gun, a Dakka-Dakka MadCatII feels not very tame too...

And with all due respect: Whats again with this incomplete comparison? IS-SRM & Clan-SRM? Whats with the tons & slots for CSRM and the overall more available quantity of weapon hard points Clammers have?

Really, there is a certain pooint, when you Clanners get me there, i will analize the whole topic IS<->Clan. And then Clanners will have a problem, because i will use math & science for that to proof my result.

Just a little taste to come:

The Combination of % usage of space/slots + efficiency of Heat/Slot/DPS-relation + Max amount of damage in relation to its average costs + What is needed (Tonnage/Engine/Slots) to reach similar results on both sides and so on.

Dear Sir, if i do this you Clammers have a problem to still justify your complaints about IS-OP.

And if you are really really honest to yourself, then you know it is still the fact that Clanners are the easy-mode in this game. Turn it around like you want, thats my point and i believe its valid.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Six, on 25 May 2018 - 11:21 PM, said:

Believe me, on the other side of the gun, a Dakka-Dakka MadCatII feels not very tame too...

And with all due respect: Whats again with this incomplete comparison? IS-SRM &amp; Clan-SRM? Whats with the tons &amp; slots for CSRM and the overall more available quantity of weapon hard points Clammers have?

Really, there is a certain pooint, when you Clanners get me there, i will analize the whole topic IS&lt;-&gt;Clan. And then Clanners will have a problem, because i will use math &amp; science for that to proof my result.

Just a little taste to come:

The Combination of % usage of space/slots + efficiency of Heat/Slot/DPS-relation + Max amount of damage in relation to its average costs + What is needed (Tonnage/Engine/Slots) to reach similar results on both sides and so on.

Dear Sir, if i do this you Clammers have a problem to still justify your complaints about IS-OP.

And if you are really really honest to yourself, then you know it is still the fact that Clanners are the easy-mode in this game. Turn it around like you want, thats my point and i believe its valid.

You mistake my point - Clans are still better. Splat, laservomit and outside of Anni, Mauler, HGauss Fapnir and Cyclops even dakka. No question. IS has some really strong brawlers and a couple good trade mechs but drop deck to drop deck Clans are still stronger. I've been pounding the tech balance drum for years. Not as bad as it used to be but still leans Clan.

[KHAN ATTAKHAN]

I.S. at short range, clans at long distance, if your stupid and play it the wrong way around then I.S. is OP or clan is OP, good god people, you've been playing this for long enough and a 2 day noob can work it out hide your tier ratings, it's embarassing.

[MischiefSC]

Except Clans at short range too, save for HGauss on 2 (technically 3, but the HGauss Fapnir/Clops is better than HGauss Anni). IS has some strong mid range options and Long range dakka options. Brawling for IS is less about a big punch as it is taking a lot of abuse. Bushie and Roughneck have comparatively weak alphas but eat a lot of abuse. Bushie is still one of the strongest mediums. However Clans have stronger brawling options overall with Crit Lynx, HBK IIC, LBK, Orion IIC, MDD (streakboat or splat), in FW the Huntsman has a slew of strong builds.

There is no longer a Clans are best at range, IS is better up close dynamic. It's more like Clans have higher alpha and mobility, IS is a bit tanker. That's true brawling or range.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 26 May 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

There is no longer a Clans are best at range, IS is better up close dynamic. It's more like Clans have higher alpha and mobility, IS is a bit tanker. That's true brawling or range.

But SRM boat vs SRM boat IS has higher alpha, higher DPS, and better spread. IS is tankier while Clan has better mobility.

What heavy class SRM boats are you comparing linebackers to? Even ton for ton IS has Catapults, going 5 tons higher they get the Archers. Dropping in weight There's the Bushwacker.