43 replies to this topic

[AedanCousland]

I only started playing two days ago and I have a Mech whos primary weapons are Lasers. If I can find a quiet sniping spot I seem to do okay but the moment any ballistic fitted Mech starts to shoot at me, I get wrecked in a very short time. Ballistics seem to do far more damage in a much shorter time than Lasers. Is that perception correct of am I doing something wrong, please?

[SilentFenris]

You are correct Aedan, laser builds will usually be out DPSed by ballistic builds.

MWO has multiple ways to deal damage:
- Damage Over Time : lasers, machine guns, Clan LRMs, ATMs, MRMs
- Front-Loaded / Burst Damage :Auto Cannon, SRMs, IS LRMs
- Pin-Point Damage : PPC, AutoCannon, guass
- Spreading Damage: Missiles, LB and Rotary autocannon, Machine guns

Additionally, look at weapons heat effeciency and weight to damage ratio. Generally a weapon with good damage to heat ration will need ammunition or have a very short range.

So common builds:
- long range laser vomit : fire 1 alpha, if target turns to return fire back off. Gennerally more Burst than DPS
- auto cannons : generally DPS. Range and DoT or Burst and Short/long range depend on specific ballistic weapons used
- missile boats : SRMs and MRM are shorter range can tear mechs apart quickly., LRMs/ATMs are more DoT

In all cases you survive longer near your team. Do not engage 1v1. In our case, setting up a sniping position, ideally you would want the Shadow Cat or Hellbringer. Shadowcat with 2 good long-range weapons and is quick to reposition if your team leaves the area. The Hellbringer carries more firepower but can not catch up as easily, you must put more effort into sticking near your team and less into finding "the perfect place" to shoot from.

If you REALLY do not want to stick near the team,take a fast ECM mech with a single guas rifle. The gauss does not give away your position. Lasers/PPCs are way too obvious to play sniper. shadowcat is probably the best mech for this role.

Edited by SilentFenris, 26 May 2018 - 06:57 AM.

[AedanCousland]

Are you sure that's right? I know I'm new but that is not what I'm seeing whatsoever, quite the contrary. ACs do huge Alpha, Lasers do DoT? How can something front loaded be DoT? When I'm hit by an AC shell it does huge damage, when I fire my Clan ER Lasers I have to keep them on the target in order to apply full damage. Surely that is DoT and the up front damage is Alpha? In addition, from the experience I have in Quick Play, everyone is running around with ballistic fitted Mechs, and they are the ones who seem to survive.

Edited by AedanCousland, 26 May 2018 - 06:57 AM.

[SilentFenris]

Not seeing any statement from my other post indicating the same weapon is both DoT AND Front-Loaded. Please quote the section for clarification.

AedanCousland, on 26 May 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

In addition, from the experience I have in Quick Play, everyone is running around with ballistic fitted Mechs, and they are the ones who seem to survive.

Survival can happen one of two ways:
1) play smart with your team, dependent on your mech build and personal skills
2) hide in a hole and hope they do not find you

If you want to play smart, check out this thread:
https://mwomercs.com...ics-101-comics/

Edited by SilentFenris, 26 May 2018 - 08:08 AM.

[Koniving]

AedanCousland, on 26 May 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

Are you sure that's right? I know I'm new but that is not what I'm seeing whatsoever, quite the contrary. ACs do huge Alpha, Lasers do DoT? How can something front loaded be DoT? When I'm hit by an AC shell it does huge damage, when I fire my Clan ER Lasers I have to keep them on the target in order to apply full damage. Surely that is DoT and the up front damage is Alpha? In addition, from the experience I have in Quick Play, everyone is running around with ballistic fitted Mechs, and they are the ones who seem to survive.

In general, lasers are damage over time for a single shot (i.e. fire laser, 1 second beam)...
But where several lasers combined will easily do 30 to 70+ damage in that one second... its impossible to combine autocannons in that same way as while 1 medium laser weighs 1 ton, an equivalent Autocannon weighs 8 tons... Instead, autocannons shoot more often and make up for the lack of combined burst damage (aka "Alpha") by hitting the enemy again and again and again and again and again and again and again over time.

An example.

Now in comparison, this video by someone else about laser vomiting kills multiple enemies back to back in single shots.
thus ACs are front loaded DPS while lasers may not be front loaded, but they are burst damage (all the combined damage hits all at once) weapons.

Combined laser weapons: 25 tons with 7 weapons. Combined alpha (at the time) 53 damage. Thus burst damage.

Combined ACs that I had: 28 tons with 4 weapons (and another 8+ tons in ammo). Combined alpha? 14 damage. Thus... it relies heavily on damage over time.

Edited by Koniving, 26 May 2018 - 07:36 AM.

[Barkem Squirrel]

The issue is, being hit by one, two or three AC's is how much weight but very precise like PPC's. That is pinpoint.

Over time you can almost replicate that pinpoint with Lasers, but you have the burn time for spreading the damage over more than one hit box.

Think about the Jenner F with 6 ML's. sneak to the rear or flank and nail someone in the rear. one or two alphas of 30 damage as long as the target is just standing there and they go boom. (or hit the right leg on like a jagermech just to see if you get an ammo explosion.) Then that stinking Raven 4X with two AC 2's peppering at range. Or the RAven 4X with an AC 20.

Generally the PPC Gauss combination works, just that you need to work on them with lead times and gauss charge.

AC's except for the tonnage is ok, but they can do very specific pin point damage, but the UAC's can build heat up with ghost heat. Now a bunch of AC 2's is scary and the UAC 2's now can tear someone apart if they stand in the stream of rounds too long.

Lasers, if you practice they can be great on mechs standing still sniping.


One thing with ghost heat it came about due to having 6 PPC stalkers just blowing people away.


Now me, I like damage over time mechs. One I am normally hard to hit, never standing still. Sniper mechs for me are very hard to play even now. The most important thing is to experiment with different play styles and weapons groups. Why, because what you can do to others, others can do unto you. So learn capabilities of what can fire at you and that goes a long way.

Then play the way you like and have fun at.

Even if it is a mech with all small lasers, like 16 of them.

[Koniving]

On the PPC topic, well here's 2 (ER) PPCs at work. So imagine six. (Skip to 3 mins.)


Or don't imagine, here's 11.

Edited by Koniving, 26 May 2018 - 07:48 AM.

[Spheroid]

What mech are you driving? As you only started two days ago I am assuming it is stock. I can provide some suggestions. Lasers are great weapons especially for new players.

[Koniving]

And since we covered everything but gauss rifles and missiles...

Here's missiles (Mostly LRMs with 2 SRM-2s) and here's Gauss Rifles. Thought of doing mine but, well a Gauss kill compilation works well enough. Warning on music choice, it isn't mine. But just in case if something happehs due to the music choice, here's one of mine.

So there's most of the weapons out there now covered. Do note that in general, ACs will outrange lasers in terms of long range firepower, so long as they can hit. In general PPCs and Gauss Rifles will outrange everything...except the mech-shotguns on the IS side. LBX 5 and 2 as they are called currently outrange everything in the game as they can go out to 3 times their stated range before reducing to 0, where everything else only goes out to twice stated before reaching 0 damage.

[AedanCousland]

Koniving, on 26 May 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

In general, lasers are damage over time for a single shot (i.e. fire laser, 1 second beam)...
But where several lasers combined will easily do 30 to 70+ damage in that one second... its impossible to combine autocannons in that same way as while 1 medium laser weighs 1 ton, an equivalent Autocannon weighs 8 tons... Instead, autocannons shoot more often and make up for the lack of combined burst damage (aka "Alpha") by hitting the enemy again and again and again and again and again and again and again over time.

An example.

Now in comparison, this video by someone else about laser vomiting kills multiple enemies back to back in single shots.
thus ACs are front loaded DPS while lasers may not be front loaded, but they are burst damage (all the combined damage hits all at once) weapons.

That makes a lot more sense, thank you. Thank you both for your help. Next question. Where do PPCs fit into the equation? I have a Mad Cat Mk II which, due to having fitted an LAMS, runs only four of the available five Lasers; two C-ER Large Lasers, two C-Medium Pulse Lasers which isn't really giving me the ability to Laser vomit with only two at a time - at least I assume not looking at that second video. To this set up I have a couple of options:

1) I drop the large and go 4x Med Pulse, drop the Heavy Machine Guns and add an AC, the size of which depends on the size of missiles I fit.

2) I drop all the lasers and go 2x ER PPCs.

Or I stay as I am. What would you recommend, please? One of the problems I find is its very difficult to keep the Lasers on a target in advanced zoon long enough to apply full damage so I can either go with an instant damage with the PPCs or use the pulse for medium to close ranges and pelt them with missiles from afar. Or is my current set up fine, I just need more practice?

Edit: I just want to say to the developers, whomever put that annoying ******* sound affect in the menu is a god damn sadist.

Edited by AedanCousland, 26 May 2018 - 08:18 AM.

[Phoenix 72]

To be fair, your best bet is to just try out weapons and see what works for you. When I was in your position, I asked around on the board to get some advice and then tried out what worked for me. Personally, I was unable to get some of the more powerful Mechs to work for me, but I am doing fairly well with stuff that has been called "Potato Mech" by others further along the food chain.

I really enjoy the Nova Champion Mech everybody got, for some reason. It reminds me a lot of my Blackjack, just with immense heat issues, but oh well.

[Koniving]

The videos subsequent to the post you quoted may help with your answer. There's no reason not to combine lasers and PPCs, just fire them for different circumstances. May put 2 ER PPCs with machine guns for a good amount of damage capabilities and heat management. Given the Madcat MK II, you should have plenty of weight to run as many weapon groups as you please though most stick to 2 or 3. If you can manage them, there's no reason not to mix.

This one's an example of over complicating it though. And this is a joke build that's an example of mixing stuff just to mix stuff.

But now for some decent mixes. Orion tried-and-true since 2013 (only changed MG to LMG )
Heavy Metal tried and true since 2013. During competitions Today the only change is the AC/2 has been swapped for a Rotary AC/2 and some tons in AC/2 ammo have dropped in the transition to RAC/2.

So you can combine weapons however you want. They work best if they compliment each other, but when you're skilled enough you can make any combo work.

In the Gauss Rifle kill compilation the twin Gauss Rifles are combined with laser vomit.

[Phoenix 72]

And just to reply to what you just posted...

Just get closer. Winning a match depends in large parts on team work. A lot of that teamwork is sharing armour and taking a turn being shot at on the front lines. If you spend your time sniping, you deprive your team of an Assault sized piece of shield.

I found that to be the solution to my abyssmal shooting skills, btw. Getting closer.

[Koniving]

AedanCousland, on 26 May 2018 - 08:16 AM, said:

Also I'm reminded of something...
All weapons have set ranges for full damage. This number is stated to the right of weapon in your weapon group display in the bottom right during gameplay.

If the weapon is green, it is in optimum range and will do full damage.

A weapon that is yellow will do reduced damage which can be anything from 0.01 damage minimum to just shy of full damage depending on the range to the target. For all weapons except Inner Sphere LBX, the cut off range is 2x the stated range.
From there, it will be 0 damage dealt and the display will be blackened.

If you're being outgunned at range, there's a good chance that you're doing significantly reduced damage from pushing that range.. ACs, especially the smaller ones, generally have significantly comparable to super range compared to lasers.

[AedanCousland]

Darakor Stormwind, on 26 May 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

And just to reply to what you just posted...

Just get closer. Winning a match depends in large parts on team work. A lot of that teamwork is sharing armour and taking a turn being shot at on the front lines. If you spend your time sniping, you deprive your team of an Assault sized piece of shield.

I found that to be the solution to my abyssmal shooting skills, btw. Getting closer.

Well that's the downfall I'm seeing with the MCII-A, it's more a Jack of all Trades. It lacks sufficient Lasers to do short range damage, and its precisely when I do get up close I get absolutely wrecked by AC Mechs...or some spurging idiot jumps in front of me when I'm firing and ruins my shot, because you know, being first to the target is way more important than teamwork with some folks.

[Koniving]

AedanCousland, on 26 May 2018 - 08:16 AM, said:

1) I drop the large and go 4x Med Pulse, drop the Heavy Machine Guns and add an AC, the size of which depends on the size of missiles I fit.

Why not use 5 large? Or 3 large and 2 ER ML?

MPL has significantly short range... I mean you might as well be tickling them when it comes to long range because they won't do anything.

Yeah sure there's ghost heat but you can fire your way around it. Try 2 large pulse and 3 ER ML and if possible, slap some LMGs which you can liberally fire around the same time.

Then you'll have a vaguely sniper worthy weapon. Of course AC boats will probably gun you down at range if you spend too long out of cover. But you'll find it much more effective for your sniper intentions.. I mean otherwise you got a 4 ton laser doing maybe...12 damage now every 4 seconds? Yeah, that's worthless... The MPLs are no good except at close range and well... it was already said you like to snipe with them.

[SilentFenris]

AedanCousland, on 26 May 2018 - 04:41 AM, said:

I only started playing two days ago and I have a Mech whos primary weapons are Lasers. If I can find a quiet sniping spot I seem to do okay but the moment any ballistic fitted Mech starts to shoot at me, I get wrecked in a very short time. Ballistics seem to do far more damage in a much shorter time than Lasers. Is that perception correct of am I doing something wrong, please?

AedanCousland, on 26 May 2018 - 08:16 AM, said:

That makes a lot more sense, thank you. Thank you both for your help. Next question. Where do PPCs fit into the equation? I have a Mad Cat Mk II which, due to having fitted an LAMS, runs only four of the available five Lasers; two C-ER Large Lasers, two C-Medium Pulse Lasers which isn't really giving me the ability to Laser vomit with only two at a time - at least I assume not looking at that second video. To this set up I have a couple of options:

1) I drop the large and go 4x Med Pulse, drop the Heavy Machine Guns and add an AC, the size of which depends on the size of missiles I fit.

2) I drop all the lasers and go 2x ER PPCs.

Or I stay as I am. What would you recommend, please? One of the problems I find is its very difficult to keep the Lasers on a target in advanced zoon long enough to apply full damage so I can either go with an instant damage with the PPCs or use the pulse for medium to close ranges and pelt them with missiles from afar. Or is my current set up fine, I just need more practice?

The best paired weapon for PPCs is Gauss.

Also, playstyle suggestion: you are not a Sniper as you said in your original post. Snipers rely on stealth. You are long range fire support. Stick with the team, shoot what they shoot, take some hits and when you get too hot, pull back and let them take some hits. If you want to play Sniper, ECM and speed is what you need. Not a bigger mech with more guns.

[Koniving]

With a quick dive, I was able to slap a Mad Cat MK II with twin Large Pulse Lasers (you can also swap these for ER PPCs), 3 ER ML, 2 LMGs, and 2 ATM-12s with an XL 300 engine and still had a lot of tonnage left over... So no reason you couldn't do an interesting build combining weapons.

Alternatively you can net a 350 engine with ATM-6s...and still have a lot of left over tonnage for ammo and heatsinks, so plenty to be had.

Edited by Koniving, 26 May 2018 - 09:14 AM.

[Phoenix 72]

Koniving, that is roughly the build I ended up with, when he said he could not do short range damage with it. I just used a larger engine, for more speed while relocating. I would have expected that to be an absolute terror at ranges of 120 to 400m. And can take potshots up to 800m away. It is just quite warm. So heat control skills are absolutely important.

[AedanCousland]

SilentFenris, on 26 May 2018 - 09:02 AM, said:

The best paired weapon for PPCs is Gauss.

You've lost me? Do you mean counter?

And no, I'm not a sniper, I prefer to do damage across a variety of ranges, hence the MCII. I snipe when they snipe, I try to move when they move, but like I said in my first post, ACs do a shitton more damage to me than my lasers are doing to them.

Koniving, on 26 May 2018 - 09:02 AM, said:

With a quick dive, I was able to slap a Mad Cat MK II with twin Large Pulse Lasers (you can also swap these for ER PPCs), 3 ER ML, 2 LMGs, and 2 ATM-12s with an XL 300 engine and still had a lot of tonnage left over... So no reason you couldn't do an interesting build combining weapons.

Alternatively you can net a 350 engine with ATM-6s...and still have a lot of left over tonnage for ammo and heatsinks, so plenty to be had.

1) Can only fit 5 or 4 and an AMS/LAMS.
2) To fit four I'd need to drop the launchers to LRM 10s. That's an overall reduction in firepower.
3) I don't know this games terminology yet. What's MPL mean?

My playstyle I guess, is damage from a variety of ranges, hence the MCII. The big downfall with it though I think is it's a Battlemech so lacks the flexibility of its Omnimech brother, the original Timberwolf.

What advantage does only having two Large Pulse have? Stats say I'm dropping around 12 damage? I'm assuming there's a trade up to be had somewhere?

1) Can only fit 5 or 4 and an AMS/LAMS.
2) To fit four I'd need to drop the launchers to LRM 10s. That's an overall reduction in firepower.
3) I don't know this games terminology yet. What's MPL mean?

My playstyle I guess, is damage from a variety of ranges, hence the MCII. The big downfall with it though I think is it's a Battlemech so lacks the flexibility of its Omnimech brother, the original Timberwolf.

What advantage does only having two Large Pulse have? Stats say I'm dropping around 12 damage? I'm assuming there's a trade up to be had somewhere?