78 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

Oh the irony.
I mean, it's not like that's really a reliable metric or anything to base anything else off of...

[Vxheous]

Armour quirked mechs + shorter engagement ranges makes IS a far better option

[El Bandito]

Not surprising, since quirks work far better when there is only 1 person shooting at you.

[Luminis]

Doesn't matter, Clams OP.

[Jackal Noble]

Also, totally separate topic that I am too lazy to start; Where's the max armor option?????!!!

[Jackal Noble]

El Bandito, on 29 May 2018 - 09:31 PM, said:

Not surprising, since quirks work far better when there is only 1 person shooting at you.

I mean let's just say that since this is a game setup in a way where one has to pick one path or another, doesn't that kind of set up one for failure in regards to that aspect of the game? Obviously there is the merc path Bandito, as I am well aware. But what of loyalists, or those without disposable income or time?

[El Bandito]

JackalBeast, on 29 May 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

I mean let's just say that since this is a game setup in a way where one has to pick one path or another, doesn't that kind of set up one for failure in regards to that aspect of the game? Obviously there is the merc path Bandito, as I am well aware. But what of loyalists, or those without disposable income or time?

That's what happens when PGI does not balance inferior IS tech against superior Clan tech, and instead lazily applies quirk bandages. I warned them from the beginning, and continued to pester them about faction tech balancing for years, but they did not listen. And now Solaris brings out PGI's faulty balancing method for all to see.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 May 2018 - 10:01 PM.

[sharknoise]

Did you know that 6/7 = 7/7? If 7 bullets were shot and 6 of them missed while the 7th went through your brain, then you are still perfectly alive and healthy. Incredible, right?

[Jackal Noble]

sharknoise, on 29 May 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

Did you know that 6/7 = 7/7? If 7 bullets were shot and 6 of them missed while the 7th went through your brain, then you are still perfectly alive and healthy. Incredible, right?

That's just crazy talk, man.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

by lore ...in this sense only IS Mechs in Solaris
is a pure IS Arena world and Clans not play in it...this Guys fight to conquerd the IS..and captured Clanmechs going not to Solaris ...more a Break thats PGI let Clanmechs in it and not say IS only or Clan only (and for Clans own Arenas with own rules)

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 30 May 2018 - 02:09 AM.

[Asym]

El Bandito, on 29 May 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

That's what happens when PGI does not balance inferior IS tech against superior Clan tech, and instead lazily applies quirk bandages. I warned them from the beginning, and continued to pester them about faction tech balancing for years, but they did not listen. And now Solaris brings out PGI's faulty balancing method for all to see.

SIGH....... Once again, we're mixing apples and oranges... There never was suppose to be "balance" between the systems... IS and Clan are opposing military philosophies and their weapon systems reflect that.

SO, when you fail to really understand that theory or, in PGI's case, ignored it from the start since this is a money making event, not an expose of "lore" or the TT's TOE, you get chaos because everyone wants what they want and if one side "likes" an IS chassis they immediately want Clan parity.........after all life is suppose to be fair, right?

All you ever get chasing "fairness" is chaos because, in the end, there are winners and losers and where you sit isn't because of the mech origins, it's whether you can be successful using what you've chosen.....

That's where "balance" gets sideways with reality, the game template, and quickly, gets out of control. As it has in MWO......

[Scyther]

Not a Solaris expert here... in fact, not even qualified to be a Solaris amateur. Just guessing from past history of games/Clan/IS.

IS has generally had advantages in the 'brawl' department, from PPFLD ACs to armor quirks etc.

Clan has generally had advantages in the laser vomit, range, total weapon tonnage for weapons, ammo, support systems, extra DHS etc. Also to some extent, mechs with superior high mounts, and some mechs with a mobility advantage (faster or with JJ option) than IS counterparts.

It seems to me that Solaris effectively tilts the playing field towards IS.
-A 1-on-1 fight is less likely to benefit hot laser vomit - in a QP you can alpha a couple times, pull back, cool down. In a Solaris the other player can pressure you.
-Total tonnage carryable is slightly evened up when you don't need to carry as much ammo (and perhaps even DHS) as for a longer 12-on-12
-Range advantage is reduced because map denying means any IS can chop off the worst maps for their build.
-Maneuverability and even high mounts are somewhat reduced because smaller maps with only 2-4 players means you have less opportunity to exploit terrain before the other person can counteract.

On the other hand, the IS benefits can be exploited on almost any Solaris map (it seems to me).

My guess would be that Clan 'meta' for Solaris would have to shift from their normal build parameters to more brawly, shorter range, higher alpha/shorter duration/less DHS builds. Also perhaps exploiting maneuverability wherever they can, though not sure how much that helps after the map de-selection process.

[R Valentine]

JackalBeast, on 29 May 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:

Oh the irony.
I mean, it's not like that's really a reliable metric or anything to base anything else off of...

Solaris eliminates the bulk of IS weaknesses. Speed? Who cares? Small lines of sight, small maps in general. Range? Same story. Weapon tonnage? You don't need as much ammo. Same deal with hardpoint placement. You aren't peeking in Solaris, or at least not that often. Low slung arms don't screw you like they do in QP. Quirks are king when everything else is more or less equal, and there's plenty of IS mechs quirked for armor. Also notice that a lot of those top Solaris mechs are total garbage in QP. It's not irony. It's just how vastly different the modes are.

[JC Daxion]

El Bandito, on 29 May 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

That's what happens when PGI does not balance inferior IS tech against superior Clan tech, and instead lazily applies quirk bandages. I warned them from the beginning, and continued to pester them about faction tech balancing for years, but they did not listen. And now Solaris brings out PGI's faulty balancing method for all to see.

and yet in comp play clans still basically rule because of ranged combat.

It's far more a map thing IMO

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2018 - 05:19 AM, said:

Solaris eliminates the bulk of IS weaknesses. Speed? Who cares? Small lines of sight, small maps in general. Range? Same story. Weapon tonnage? You don't need as much ammo. Same deal with hardpoint placement. You aren't peeking in Solaris, or at least not that often. Low slung arms don't screw you like they do in QP. Quirks are king when everything else is more or less equal, and there's plenty of IS mechs quirked for armor. Also notice that a lot of those top Solaris mechs are total garbage in QP. It's not irony. It's just how vastly different the modes are.

totally agree in most respects, though i wouldn't call those mechs total garbage in QP, just not OP or top performers..

Yes the game is completely different. I think the maps need to be bigger for one, and need a bit more variety too.

[Luminis]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2018 - 05:19 AM, said:

It's just how vastly different the modes are.

Absolutely.

This also goes to show that IS and Clan have different strengths and weaknesses at present. PGI not designing the game modes to cater to the strengths of both sides equally is why we see one side dominate one mode and the other side another mode.

[R Valentine]

JC Daxion, on 30 May 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:

and yet in comp play clans still basically rule because of ranged combat.

It's far more a map thing IMO







totally agree in most respects, though i wouldn't call those mechs total garbage in QP, just not OP or top performers..

Yes the game is completely different. I think the maps need to be bigger for one, and need a bit more variety too.

It's supposed to be more or less a duel, so bigger maps isn't going to help. I don't want to play hide and seek. Solaris just doesn't punish you for full mech exposure like QP does. In Solaris if your whole mech is showing, 1 person shoots you. Well, you're shooting 1 person, so it's a 1 for 1 trade. Who cares? In QP, 6 or 7 people shoot you, while you only shoot 1 person. Now it's a 7 for 1 trade, which is crap. Might even get you killed outright. No map is going to change that fact. I'm perfectly fine with a mode existing that clanners are bad at. They already have QP and comp play. Let us have Solaris.

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous, on 29 May 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Armour quirked mechs + shorter engagement ranges makes IS a far better option

Also how the divisions were split.

If you had 1 division per class you would have most of them be Clans. Though Anni/Cyclops/HGass Fapnir would still be strong AF.

6xac5 Anni is a beast on any map though.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Asym, on 30 May 2018 - 04:23 AM, said:

SIGH....... Once again, we're mixing apples and oranges... There never was suppose to be "balance" between the systems... IS and Clan are opposing military philosophies and their weapon systems reflect that.

Jihad & Dark Age says you're wrong. Clans were a mistake, albeit a popular one.

[LowSubmarino]

One of Clans big advantates is better range.

On solaris range is not a relevant factor though as the maps are tiny. Only close quarter, hand to hand combat.

That alone puts Clan mechs that e.g. use lasers at a severe disadvantage. Not only is one of their biggest strengths nullified in such a scenario, they are additionally severely punished by hotter weapons. Being less heat efficient than IS mechs. Clan ballistics - especially in a 1 vs 1 scenario - can be spread (their dmg that is) more easily than IS acs. All of which and more greatly favors IS mechs.

Take away range and they cant really use e.g. the lasers significant range advantage whatsoever.

Edited by LowSubmarino, 30 May 2018 - 10:22 AM.

[MechaBattler]

It's pretty obvious why. It's been stated multiple times already. But Clan range advantage is a moot point in Solaris. You also don't need as much ammo for weapons. Or even need to go especially fast. Which negates two of the tech disadvantages the IS has. Heavier weapons and the need to under engine to avoid side torso death.

Combine that with crazy quirks and you have a formula for strong metas in Solaris.

As Bandito said. If they had balanced tech from the onset we wouldn't have this problem. And the Clans wouldn't whine as hard. Instead they let things settle on big quirks and everyone got too comfortable.