831 replies to this topic

[Paul Inouye]

Update:

As of this post.. the poll is sub 50% for yes and no at a near parity. That being said, we'll leave the poll up through the week and let people voice their opinions and thoughts on the matter.

At this point, this does not meet the 'overwhelmingly positive' requirement for development. Even with the sample group of current forum users being the people voting, statistically the silent majority will also vote this way.

That being said, 8v8 may be put on hiatus for re-visit way down the road but it will not be implemented for now. Some of you may be disappointed, but we MAY run some events using 8v8 in the future. Even if those events are popular, it is not going to change from the core 12v12 gameplay.

Thanks for all the input and discussion folks.

[Arianrhod]

Here’s the most unbiased advice I can provide to PGI, based only on the voting percentiles. Right now the community is almost evenly split between moving to from 12v12 to 8v8. The difference between the two sides is statistically insignificant. This means that deciding either way is against the wishes of a solid half of the player base, if this sample is truly representative of overall sentiment.

However, an active decision to make a change based on a 50/50 opinion split would effectively alienate everyone who was opposed, whereas doing nothing is. . . . Well doing nothing. Failure to implement a change that was only desired by half the community will be much better received by that community than making a massive intentional change.

In other words, doing nothing is the only rational option here. With opinions divided like this, it makes no sense to spend development time and money on a feature not everyone wants.

Now here’s me editorializing. I prefer 12v12 at least in solo queue because, athough this is a tactical team game, and I love it for that, there is also the reality that pug teams do not share a hive mind, and 12v12 leaves roughly 33% more margin for error. Being a solo player is a lot easier when there’s more armor and ammunition on the field. 8v8 I feel would be punishing towards specialized, niche mechs, towards lone wolf players, and towards any kind of slow heavy or assault mechs. It would lead to much faster, stompier matches that would swing one way rapidly and irrecoverably, because losing 1 mech out of 8 is much more damning than losing 1 mech out of 12.

EDIT: As I was writing this, Paul basically echoed what I said about the opinion split. Guess I was a little too late to be helpful XD

Edited by Arianrhod, 08 June 2018 - 12:59 PM.

[ShooteyMcShooterson]

No. Reduce the number of queues.


But if we do get moved to 8v8... When that is done, can we pretty please change QP to function like FP, wherein we know what the map is ahead of time and can choose another mech with a different build?

Just like how you have to maintain a certain weight limit when choosing the alternate mech/mechs for your drop deck, for QP the weight would be whatever the weight of the mech is that the player was just put in the match with. If you just dropped with a 70 tonner, you can pick any 70 tonner you've got. Not 60, not 75, exactly 70. This could go further and require the alternate mech chosen be the same mech, but different variants. Thereby creating a strong incentive to own multiple variants of the same mech in a way the game doesn't really do today.

I also suspect it would significantly decrease the salting out/yolo runs by players stuck like in say a brawl build on Polar.

Please consider!

[Storyteller]

To be honest: I don't know. I played MWO from 2012 and liked both modes, 8v8 and 12v12. So, I would love to have both in MWO.

[Brain Cancer]

Paul Inouye, on 08 June 2018 - 12:54 PM, said:

At this point, this does not meet the 'overwhelmingly positive' requirement for development. Even with the sample group of current forum users being the people voting, statistically the silent majority will also vote this way.

I'm not disappointed. I'm not even surprised.

I mean, look at all the people who upon seeing this, despite what the original post said kept posting for the game to change to 16v16, 24v24, or more despite the engine being unable to support it without going into convulsions from the extra load, nor was it even an option in the voting.

[BTGbullseye]

AzureRathalos, on 08 June 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

Tiers do not need to go away.

They literally serve no purpose whatsoever when we have a leaderboard, and if a halfway decent system for rating players gets put in place. (player and mech, not just a player)

AzureRathalos, on 08 June 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

A brand new player should never encounter (and get obliterated by) a top ranked veteran the first time they drop.

The formulae that takes information like leaderboards and percentiles to sort users into Tiers has to be improved and applied better.

That is literally what my 2nd point was talking about... You need to work on your reading comprehension.

[Imperius]

Paul Inouye, on 08 June 2018 - 12:54 PM, said:

Update:

As of this post.. the poll is sub 50% for yes and no at a near parity. That being said, we'll leave the poll up through the week and let people voice their opinions and thoughts on the matter.

At this point, this does not meet the 'overwhelmingly positive' requirement for development. Even with the sample group of current forum users being the people voting, statistically the silent majority will also vote this way.

That being said, 8v8 may be put on hiatus for re-visit way down the road but it will not be implemented for now. Some of you may be disappointed, but we MAY run some events using 8v8 in the future. Even if those events are popular, it is not going to change from the core 12v12 gameplay.

Thanks for all the input and discussion folks.

Where was the overwhelmingly positive vote for Solaris?

Well I knew the moment it was typed about needing to be overwhelming positive this was a waste of time. How many alts voted?

[AzureRathalos]

If there were alts involved, there were clearly not enough alts on either side to tip the balance in one way or another. It's not overwhelmingly no either.

[SFC174]

Brain Cancer, on 08 June 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

I'm not disappointed. I'm not even surprised.

I mean, look at all the people who upon seeing this, despite what the original post said kept posting for the game to change to 16v16, 24v24, or more despite the engine being unable to support it without going into convulsions from the extra load, nor was it even an option in the voting.

Cmon now, most of those folks were emphasizing their dislike of 8v8 by noting they'd actually prefer to go the opposite way because more mechs = more fun. I think most know that won't happen for technical reasons, but the point is, many of us find more players on the field to be more interesting. Purely a personal preference, but it isn't due to some misunderstanding of how the engine works.

[AdmLoken]

As a long term player of MWO ever since its beta days i would personally not be totally against the switch to 8v8 if it did have a meaningful impact to Faction Play, a mode which is criminally underutilised by the pre-existing player base.

However i do appreciate the ability to play 12v12 in a Quickplay que, and never felt the choice was a bad one when it was originally implemented.

a 12v12 environment doesn't emphasise individual skill quite as much as a smaller 8v8 mode, which can be quite influential in the survival of per player basis and also the enjoyment factor for new blood, which is crucial for the games continued success.

Perhaps a middle ground approach would be more in order along the lines of having an 8v8 mode as an optional addition.

N.B - This is my own personal opinion and not the opinion of my Broadcast as a whole, nor as a Broadcaster on twitch.

[Composite Armour]

This is the kind of thing that we should have a PTS for.

[Phyrce]

Daurock, on 06 June 2018 - 04:35 PM, said:

Hard No.
Fewer people statistically leads to a greater chances of a steamroll, something the game should strive to avoid. Games that were 12/7 or 12/5 or would have a great chance of turning into 8/1steamrolls. That's not good.

Some would argue 12/5 IS a steamroll... you can tell 75% of the time who has won by the first 3 kills. the number of players doesn't change that. I would also like to see these statistics your quoting.

Edited by Phyrce, 08 June 2018 - 04:04 PM.

[JadePanther]

Paul Inouye, on 06 June 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

Right now it's checking interest. Russ has mentioned before that he'd want an overwhelming response if we were to move ahead with it.

I dont think you can get overwhelming response because how many of your current playerbase has ever played in an 8v8 on MWO excluding competitive setting.. Really Paul do us a favor and poll the DB to see just how many of the current playerbase existed before 12v12 became the norm.. I think that needs to be taken into account here... I'm just not convinced that the poll is accurate given the unknown of how many people voting have actually played in 8v8 pug environment as comp 8v8 is a higher level of play vs the pug queue.

Maybe a test run on PTS with login and playtime event incentives could give players the experience of 8v8.. Limiting maps and modes would prolly be helpful.. Hey i'd even say bringing back some of the old classic maps for the PTS would grab alot of attention and playtime from vets that miss them..

But the poll is kinda missing a second part that should ask if the person voting ever played 8v8 in public queue.. That would shed some light on just how much of the participation in the poll is of an informed and experienced opinion.

Cause not everyone got to feel the love of 8v8's that could really go either teams way quite often down to the last mech.. I know you and others over there saw it plenty of times.. After all I was around back then when seeing any of you on any given day was not uncommon. Which happend more a clutch from behind or a dev on the enemy team were niether unheard of or uncommon... Nowadays both are prolly of epic, legendary, or possibly mythical ratity.. Mix in a Frag the Devs event with 8v8 on PTS and then try and see what the response is on 8v8 afterwards.. I'm sure you'll see alot less mixed of a response after everyone has gotten some experience in it.

for the record IMHO...
12v12 should be for larger coordinated team based play that faction warfare should be filling the role of.. solaris is for solo and 2 man.. 8v8 pug would fit in the middle and serve as an unranked playground thats a primer to comp play or moving into large scale faction battles..

[kailii]

8v8 was great when we had it back then.
But now most people want frantic and anonymous kill fests.

Just don't give me that "thinking mans shooter" again, OK?

[50 50]

Paul Inouye, on 08 June 2018 - 12:54 PM, said:

Update:

As of this post.. the poll is sub 50% for yes and no at a near parity. That being said, we'll leave the poll up through the week and let people voice their opinions and thoughts on the matter.

At this point, this does not meet the 'overwhelmingly positive' requirement for development. Even with the sample group of current forum users being the people voting, statistically the silent majority will also vote this way.

That being said, 8v8 may be put on hiatus for re-visit way down the road but it will not be implemented for now. Some of you may be disappointed, but we MAY run some events using 8v8 in the future. Even if those events are popular, it is not going to change from the core 12v12 gameplay.

Thanks for all the input and discussion folks.

Hi Paul,

I have to say I don't quite get the reason for the change. What is the change trying to achieve.
I can understand the pros of it.
I don't feel that some of the cons such as needing to rebuild maps and modes is necessary.
But if it's just to provide a mode with a different team size then I would have to say no.

If the change was primarily aimed at improving wait times, then I could understand it more but would think that creating a more flexible system would serve much better and be suitable for solo quick play, group quick play and faction play.
That is: Modular Grouping

Ironically, solo quick play is probably the one queue/mode we can join that you can regularly get a match after a short wait at any time of day.
Group quick play struggles more at different times and can sometimes be impossible to get a match in as piecing together the groups to make the 12 player team is a little more awkward and difficult.
Faction Play suffers badly in this regard as the lower population and longer game times means it can be difficult to get the team together and then a long wait for opposition to do the same.

There was also a point made in the past when Scouting was getting worked on and introduced that PGI wanted a mode where small teams could participate.
However, this means that those players were separated from the rest which did nothing to help the wait times.
Now with Solaris there is even further segregation.

So, I don't understand why the system wouldn't be designed to be more flexible instead of applying hard set restrictions.

That is, make it dynamic based around the lances so the game can get players into the matches as quickly and reliably as possible.
If the system every 30 seconds checked for readied players wouldn't it be possible to do something like:

Is there enough for 12v12?
Yes -> go to game
No
Is there enough for 8v8?
Yes -> go to game
No
Is there enough for 4v4?
Yes -> go to game
No
Wait 30 seconds and try again.

I would actually expect that for solo quick play the majority of the matches would still form as 12v12, but there is the possibility to have a match with smaller team sizes which tackles the wait time issue and at the same time adds a new layer of variety to every mode.

To ensure it works for everyone though, groups would have to be limited to a lance to ensure they are not left behind should there not be enough players to form an opposing team.

I also see this as being particularly valuable for Faction Play and units as there, groups could be restricted to only consist of players from their own faction and this opens the way to:

• Bring back inter-faction conflict (IS vs IS, Clan vs Clan and still keep Clan vs IS)
  
• Smaller units that do not field a lot of lances can suddenly represent their faction in the invasion mode because the system is flexible enough to allow scaled conflicts and modular grouping
  
• Larger units with multiple lances suddenly can fight on multiple fronts because they can be split up but at the same time can find themselves pitted against another 12 players simply because there are enough players ready in that opposing faction.

The most important point to me would be ensuring players can get into the game quickly and reliably.
We don't come on here to watch loading screens or search endlessly for a match, we come here to play and if we can't get a match we can't play and we leave.

Across Quick Play and Faction Play the system needs flexibility to be able to cater for fluctuations in the player population because it is split over multiple modes, multiple timezones and multiple servers.

So please consider an alternative and look at a dynamic system that allows modular grouping.

Regards,

50 50

[Akillius]

This "poll" (irregardless of its end "results") excludes the significant group of players who only log into game to play when they've time, and smartly avoid the forums like the plague.

[MegaBopper]

After as many posts have been made as are above this probably won't mean much to most. That being said, why not offer the players a choice of what queue they want to get into up front. I think that both 12v12 and 8v8 should be available on quick play with the down shift only in the event that a 12v12 cannot be put together. This would allow the players more flexibility and choice.

Now even if you do implement 8v8 please do not neglect other things in the game that need to be fixed. This time try to do it right and make sure that nothing is broken in the process of adding something new. 8v8 will be worth the effort to implement as an addition but it is not worth creating a lot of headaches to rush into the system.

Good luck on the battlefield.

[El Bandito]

Looming Dementia, on 08 June 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

Sure, it decreases the frequency, but when it does occur, you're ******.

I was there during 8v8 era, and whining about discos were not as prevalent as now. Perhaps it is just player mentality?

Edited by El Bandito, 08 June 2018 - 07:45 PM.

[Wibbledtodeath]

8V8 & 12V12 should both be a thing for QP

Variety is good.

[Deweywolf]

Focus on the other aspects of the game. Right now the only gameplay that works for me at night is QP, everything else takes forever to find a match.