16 replies to this topic

[AedanCousland]

I have a question, if someone will take the time to help, please?

I have two variants of the same Mech. For the first variant, the armour shown in the bottom right of the Mechlab shows as 554/558 and it has ECM. For the second variant I get 558/558 but no ECM. For the center torso alone, variant B has 10 points extra armour. It also has better firepower by way of an SRM 6 - 10 points more. But it doesn't have ECM. Cooling is 5% greater on the first variant. Both have AMS. I can fit a targeting comp. on variant A, but not B due to the SRM ammo.

My question is, is the addition of the ECM and a Targeting Computer worth such a significant reduction in armour?

Edited by AedanCousland, 01 June 2018 - 03:08 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

You are supposed to customize the mechs when you buy them, it is just showing you the stock options. The mech with ECM can raise its armor to be a full 558/558 and rearrange where its armor is on the mech and change the weapons around.

Basically just look at what hardpoints are available on the mech, though hardpoints may also change if you get an omnimech.

Take a look at the mechlab in game to see how you can customize stuff before buying.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 01 June 2018 - 03:16 PM.

[AedanCousland]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 01 June 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

You are supposed to customize the mechs when you buy them, it is just showing you the stock options. The mech with ECM can raise its armor to be a full 558/558 and rearrange where its armor is on the mech and change the weapons around.

Basically just look at what hardpoints are available on the mech, though hardpoints may also change if you get an omnimech.

Take a look at the mechlab in game to see how you can customize stuff before buying.

I know how the Mechlab works, what I don't know is how effective ECM is. What I'm asking is whether ECM is effective enough to mitigate the loss of between four and ten points of armour per Mech section and a ten point reduction in firepower and increased heat generation? How good is ECM?

[Cloves]

ECM used to be called the Jesus box. They nerfed it via the skill tree so you now need the dump a ton of points in the sensors tree to bring it back to it’s former glory. If I am taking a mech with ECM I do not bother to load it until it’s skilled up that far, but I will likely spend those points first. It changes how you play and how others react to you. It’s especially potent against lower tier players, as folks quickly get addicted to the targeting system and fail to use thier mk 1 eyeball. You may need to help them along by not silhouetting or otherwise drawing attention to yourself. It will prevent/delay missile locks for LRMs/streaks. I feel not getting shot nearly as often is worth a light’s alpha worth of armor.
Edit-
Higher tier players will often take a similar mech and trade that same ECM for a good quirk, or 12 more points of alpha or both because at the highest tiers, the damage is better. My favorite ECM mechs (PB and Scat) have been nerfed to hell, but there are some good ones still out there.

Edited by Cloves, 01 June 2018 - 05:28 PM.

[Phoenix 72]

Well, the answer to the question "Is ECM worth it?" is an absolute, resounding "It depends."

When I started playing MWO, I only got Light Mechs and slowly worked my way up to Medium Mechs. Everything I bought had ECM. Everything. In Tier 5 and 4, a lot of the matches are Lurmaggeddon. Everywhere you go, the missiles follow. I had a hard time dealing with that at the beginning and Light Mechs are so squishy, I felt it was absolutely worth it. If you have ECM, you also have a decent chance of being overlooked when you are peeking at range to see where the enemy is moving, people often cycle through targets using "R" and ignore everything that does not get marked red.

I am currently in T3 and the missile spam has really gone down massively. LRMs have become a secondary weapon because of the drawbacks of the weapon system. And most players have progressed to the point where they know the likely hiding places on the maps and what to look for. So the ECM has lost some of the value it used to provide. Also, I have gotten a bit better at using terrain and relocating during the peeking phase of combat. None of my last 5 Mechs (I only own 11 or 12 or so) has ECM. And these are the Mechs I am currently playing exclusively.

My suggestion would be to absolutely get a few ECM capable Mechs when you start, because they give you a very nice leg up in the beginning. And the learning curve of this game is so steep that every little bit of help makes things easier. If you have ECM, you will find you live longer, which gives you a better chance to do more damage. Which will even the lack of firepower out.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

What mechs are you talking about? Nearly always when you can equip ECM, you should do it. And pretty much always you take full torso armor too, with good amount of leg and arm armor.

[Cloves]

Artic wolf and kit fox, I spent the first 12 or so nodes skilling up without the ECM mounted to have more weight for bigger guns/more heat sinks. Once I got the first two nodes turned one, I changed the builds to include ECM

I might strip armor from the kit fox arms if running the lrm pods as the side toros always go first, and the arms I believe get a huge armor boost.

[Cloves]

Other folks have run the hellbringer without the ECM omnipod as there is a huge quirk on the f side torso. Think it’s like 10% heat on lasers. The OP was also asking if it was worth running a lesser armored mech in order to get ECM, He spoke of 10 points, I equated that to a very small alpha, but would never strip front side or front center armor. As I have had a ton on fun with under armored under weaponed chassis such as PB and scat, I have found the answer to that question is yes.

Edited by Cloves, 01 June 2018 - 10:13 PM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Cloves, on 01 June 2018 - 10:01 PM, said:

Other folks have run the hellbringer without the ECM omnipod as there is a huge quirk on the f side torso. Think it’s like 10% heat on lasers. The OP was also asking if it was worth running a lesser armored mech in order to get ECM, He spoke of 10 points, I equated that to a very small alpha, but would never strip front side or front center armor. As I have had a ton on fun with under armored under weaponed chassis such as PB and scat, I have found the answer to that question is yes.

Yes, but in case of Hellbringer it's about choosing omnipods, not just choosing to either equip or not to equip ECM. It has two configs available both with 10% heat quirk, with slighly different options, as well as third good option without those heat quirks but with all high mounts. I think OP is talking about Blood Asp where the ECM either is in CT or isn't.

[The Schwartz]

Typically I'll put ECM on something that has spare tonnage to do so. The "it depends" is absolutely accurate. If you're in a game with high tier players you'll forget you even have ecm on your mech as it's effectiveness is about nihil. IS mechs can benefit from it due to stealth armor which can be for some very niche play depending on the mech/config. Though if you do have ECM on typically you're the 2nd choice of target rather than the first. The skill tree is a huge factor into it's effectiveness. The targeting computer can be useful if you're running ballistics but with srms it's not as big of a deal. The projectile speed is it's most useful function. Definately something to use with spare tonnage but i wouldn't sacrifice heatsinks or a weapon for it. Armor you can deal with by switching around armor from areas you rarely get shot in. On some of my 2nd line mechs i'll run as low as 1/2 armor but i'm not recommending you do so.

[AedanCousland]

Darakor Stormwind, on 01 June 2018 - 08:50 PM, said:

Well, the answer to the question "Is ECM worth it?" is an absolute, resounding "It depends."

When I started playing MWO, I only got Light Mechs and slowly worked my way up to Medium Mechs. Everything I bought had ECM. Everything. In Tier 5 and 4, a lot of the matches are Lurmaggeddon. Everywhere you go, the missiles follow. I had a hard time dealing with that at the beginning and Light Mechs are so squishy, I felt it was absolutely worth it. If you have ECM, you also have a decent chance of being overlooked when you are peeking at range to see where the enemy is moving, people often cycle through targets using "R" and ignore everything that does not get marked red.

I am currently in T3 and the missile spam has really gone down massively. LRMs have become a secondary weapon because of the drawbacks of the weapon system. And most players have progressed to the point where they know the likely hiding places on the maps and what to look for. So the ECM has lost some of the value it used to provide. Also, I have gotten a bit better at using terrain and relocating during the peeking phase of combat. None of my last 5 Mechs (I only own 11 or 12 or so) has ECM. And these are the Mechs I am currently playing exclusively.

My suggestion would be to absolutely get a few ECM capable Mechs when you start, because they give you a very nice leg up in the beginning. And the learning curve of this game is so steep that every little bit of help makes things easier. If you have ECM, you will find you live longer, which gives you a better chance to do more damage. Which will even the lack of firepower out.

From what you're saying it sounds like ECM on an Assault is counter productive because you're slow and stick out like a sore thumb. It's better on smaller, more nimble mechs that depend upon getting close, hitting hard and getting out again without beng pelted by LRMs at distance? Is that fair to say or have I misunderstood?

[Koniving]

AedanCousland, on 01 June 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

I have a question, if someone will take the time to help, please?

I have two variants of the same Mech. For the first variant, the armour shown in the bottom right of the Mechlab shows as 554/558 and it has ECM. For the second variant I get 558/558 but no ECM. For the center torso alone, variant B has 10 points extra armour. It also has better firepower by way of an SRM 6 - 10 points more. But it doesn't have ECM. Cooling is 5% greater on the first variant. Both have AMS. I can fit a targeting comp. on variant A, but not B due to the SRM ammo.

My question is, is the addition of the ECM and a Targeting Computer worth such a significant reduction in armour?

In terms of max armor, unless there's something specific about the quirks, all you really need to do is change the weight from something else back into armor to make up the difference.

This said, ECM does a number of things, the most valuable of which is it makes it take significantly longer for enemies to get your "information", that is details on exactly what weapons you have, what damage you have, and where that damage is. This means that enemies fighting you, until some enemy acquires that information, will not know that your (as an example) your left leg is nearly broken. As such they may be shooting your torsos, your arms, or even the wrong leg without knowing that you'd be a limping mess if they just shot the weak leg.

It of course has many other advantages. Most of those however rely on either being too close too the bad guys, or are removed by the bad guys using "BAP" or "CAP", the two..okay three Active Probes (there's also LCAP).

Every mech can equip AMS...EXCEPT the Cicada X5.
But some can equip two, or three, or four. If they already have one built on it stock it can probably carry 2.

What's important is that the machine suits your needs... or could be changed to suit your needs. So rather than looking at what it has when you get it like you would in Battletech (the tabletop under the full rules of a campaign or the Hare-Brained Schemes PC version as major modifications could take a month of game time or more), here in MWO you look at the hardpoints and make a decision based on what it "could be" rather than "what it is." Because nobody runs it stock on here except for the occasional "stock only" private matches.

Any mech can equip a targeting computer.
Though only one with an ECM hardpoint can equip ECM.

[Cloves]

AedanCousland, on 02 June 2018 - 03:00 AM, said:

From what you're saying it sounds like ECM on an Assault is counter productive because you're slow and stick out like a sore thumb. It's better on smaller, more nimble mechs that depend upon getting close, hitting hard and getting out again without beng pelted by LRMs at distance? Is that fair to say or have I misunderstood?

. It still would have some benitits, I have no direct experience with ECM assaults. I started as a light pilot, so I probably fit my play style to the perceived strengths. The hellbringer has such a long burn time on it’s lasers, it’s not a hit and run mech, but the ECM will protect it from a LRM death, direct component targeting info, and less likely to be focused by multiple folks. I feel ECM would be less useful on an assault, but probably still worth it unless you are giving up some major synergy, in lower tiers.

[AedanCousland]

Koniving, on 02 June 2018 - 05:08 AM, said:

In terms of max armor, unless there's something specific about the quirks, all you really need to do is change the weight from something else back into armor to make up the difference.

This said, ECM does a number of things, the most valuable of which is it makes it take significantly longer for enemies to get your "information", that is details on exactly what weapons you have, what damage you have, and where that damage is. This means that enemies fighting you, until some enemy acquires that information, will not know that your (as an example) your left leg is nearly broken. As such they may be shooting your torsos, your arms, or even the wrong leg without knowing that you'd be a limping mess if they just shot the weak leg.

It of course has many other advantages. Most of those however rely on either being too close too the bad guys, or are removed by the bad guys using "BAP" or "CAP", the two..okay three Active Probes (there's also LCAP).

Every mech can equip AMS...EXCEPT the Cicada X5.
But some can equip two, or three, or four. If they already have one built on it stock it can probably carry 2.

What's important is that the machine suits your needs... or could be changed to suit your needs. So rather than looking at what it has when you get it like you would in Battletech (the tabletop under the full rules of a campaign or the Hare-Brained Schemes PC version as major modifications could take a month of game time or more), here in MWO you look at the hardpoints and make a decision based on what it "could be" rather than "what it is." Because nobody runs it stock on here except for the occasional "stock only" private matches.

Any mech can equip a targeting computer.
Though only one with an ECM hardpoint can equip ECM.

It gets bonuses to armour. You simply cannot achieve the same levels of armour with the other variants. I currently run with an amount of armour that is only beaten by the Annihilator MB. Funnily enough that's the only Mech that has a higher firepower rating than mine, although I have twice its speed and a better paint job. I think I'll stick with the armour. I can always hover around an ECM Mech on the battlefield. Thanks everyone for the insight.

[Koniving]

AedanCousland, on 02 June 2018 - 07:16 AM, said:

It gets bonuses to armour. You simply cannot achieve the same levels of armour with the other variants. I currently run with an amount of armour that is only beaten by the Annihilator MB. Funnily enough that's the only Mech that has a higher firepower rating than mine, although I have twice its speed and a better paint job. I think I'll stick with the armour. I can always hover around an ECM Mech on the battlefield. Thanks everyone for the insight.

So which mech are we talking about? You never specified it.

After all if 558 is the max armor... Welp the Annihilator line goes well past 700, any 100 ton mech goes easily to 614....

[Koniving]

Nightstar goes to 586 without counting quirks and skill tree, and easily surpasses that.

I think you're talking about a Cyclops. Possibly a Blood Asp.

[mailin]

I find ECM can be incredibly useful. If a mech can take it, I believe that it should take it. Even at Tier 1 I find it useful. Enemies don't always see mechs, they often see the red markers. For that reason ECM can be invaluable for moving your friendlies into close range, which is why my current favorite mech is the Stalker 3FB with ECM and 6 lasers (no lrms). Granted it may not always do a lot of damage, but it's great at allowing my slow assaults to not have to worry quite so much about getting spotted by fast movers, and subsequently ripped to shreds before hitting their assaults. But, I also try really hard to be a good team mate and I find ECM invaluable for that reason.