26 replies to this topic

[Phlynn]

There is so little reward for being the brawler or leading a push in that, too many times, the team is two brawler builds and ten 2nd line builds.

I am beginning to wonder if that is because front line players are the first to get bored with the game and leave. It's easy to sit back and alpha poke each match getting 500+ damage even if that damage doesn't result in a win. It's harder to push into a fight knowing you're likely gonna die and get a terrible score - even if you win.

The mech choices for a front line push mech are limited and oddly enough, we just saw the anni get taken down a notch or two because it did the job of pushing into a fire line too well. Something about defense should not be a selling point on a mech.

I really think that idea needs a rework - more defensive heavy mechs to pull players away from peek/poke or nascar and get them into the fight.

[Tranderas]

It's the map rotation. The only real brawling map is Solaris City and it's brand new. Players who are used to LRM/ERLL/Gauss duels- myself included- don't like it, so we tend to pick others.

If you want more brawling, FP actually offers better opportunities for it, as guarding a door or attacking into a door usually means having to fight at close quarters.

Otherwise, the only real answer is to vote against Polar Highlands, and hope the devs rework that and other maps to be more brawl-friendly.

[Vanguard836]

So what do you suggest OP?

Edited by Vanguard836, 01 June 2018 - 05:24 PM.

[LordNothing]

like brawling, play more fp.

[fat4eyes]

You have to be patient. Let the 2nd line mechs shoot at each other for a while and spend their armor. When the time is right, call for a push and if you're lucky you'll be able to take down 3 of them because they're already at half health. If you're really lucky and the team backs up your push, you may even survive the match.

[sycocys]

Stop running driectly into a firing line and redefine your approach to brawling and you will find yourself being a lot more successful with it.

[Lykaon]

Tranderas, on 01 June 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

It's the map rotation. The only real brawling map is Solaris City....

And...

HPG
Mining Collective
Canyon Network
Crimson straight
River City


Any map with domination save maybe Frozen city (the "bowl" is a tough spot to fight from)

Honestly most maps are brawl friendly if the correct tactics are employed.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I dunno, my interpretation of this would be of self-preservation, as a natural assumption from reading guides, playing matches and getting feedback from those sources, has those players entering QP seeking what they imagine in their heads works best for what they want to achieve in a match, and rarely building to support the other eleven players one drops with.

Or just want to test a build no matter the consequences.

Could be other raisins, I just do not want to consider them.

[RickySpanish]

I play front line every time, except when I don't feel like dying early. If you want to lead the charge, throw in some lb20-xs and SRMs and wait for the snipers to establish their plinking lines. Once they're good and settled in for the night, trot on over and shoot them in the face.

[Sjorpha]

It's just a natural consequence of the solo queue format. When you don't know what map and other mechs you'll be playing with it's better to bring a mech that will work with any map or team, and since bracket builds are useless that means boating midrange weaponry. There is really no way to change that logic while keeping random maps and teams. Of course a lot of people bring different stuff regardless to have fun so it ends up being fairly varied anyways.

But if you want your close range mechs to actually be strong choices you have to join a unit/group and brawl as a team in group queue or FP.

Edited by Sjorpha, 02 June 2018 - 12:31 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Solo queue, people play for themselves. They don't want to die early, so they pick builds and tactics that will allow them to sit back. As long as someone else does the getting hit-it's ok.
The concept of sharing damage across the team is alien to most selfish solos.

[Dragonporn]

Can't say most of the team truly pick second line builds. What I can reliably point out is that when engagement starts, few of our mechs start poking and firing (ones with LLs, Gauss, small AC, etc), others trying to get safe locks (ones with missiles), and some Light/Med packs running from side to side, looking for an opening, while brawlers hang a little behind waiting for a moment to push. F.e. I have godlike brawler mechs, but if I won't go into right moment, i.e. push with my team, I'll just go down instantly, and if that happens, team will miss out on me solo killing 4-6 mechs or so up close. The guys who started poking get closer and literally start to brawl when it breaks out, not like anyone has any choice at that, so it feels mixed more often than not.
This is an ideal picture without anyone running at the edge of the map, right into deathball or just standing still at spawn, so...

[Tarogato]

Phlynn, on 01 June 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

There is so little reward for being the brawler or leading a push [...] It's easy to sit back and alpha poke each match getting 500+ damage

What you consider to be "sit back and alpha poke" is what I would consider to be "front line" mechs.


Ultimately, how you play your mech is what determines whether you are front line or not. You can be a front line mech with 5x ERLL sitting and poking at 700m, as long as you are poking aggressively and cumulating a suitable amount of attention from the enemy. You might be taking and giving more damage than the LB20+SRM brawlers who are "up front" sitting behind cover uselessly the whole match waiting for their right time to strike.

Your mech and build is not what dictates whether you are front line or not. Rather it is decided by how you interact with the enemy, imo.

[El Bandito]

Common sense dictates that one should only frontally attack the opponents when they are sufficiently weakened. And those "second line" mechs help weaken the enemy just for that purpose. Unless the opponents are complete potatoes.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 June 2018 - 02:44 AM.

[Prototelis]

^ Not only that, but winning at this game is as easy as presenting more targets than you are presented. In other words, create a numbers advantage.

If you're constantly running into a 5 person firing line you are going to get wrecked everytime.

[MischiefSC]

Pushing, poking, these are tactics that have different times and places and apllications. In QP pushing is harder because your teammates are not reliable. However the benefit of pushing in QP is that the people in poke builds are 99.999% likely to be bad, and incredibly cowardly.

Pushing to brawl can be very strong. Absolutely strong in QP - if your team happens to have the balls to push. That's just luck. You can always count on pugs to run when pushed which turns any good push into a route and roll. However you're just as likely to be on the timid team as the gutsy team.

However what really matters is aggression. Even with a range build. Shoot early, shoot often.

[Nightbird]

Having 1-3 front line mechs is ideal, more is bad for your team. Their job is to be the anvil when the second line is trading and switch to be the hammer when the second line has softened the targets up. At no point is a front liner's job to be a shield though, you need to preserve your mech armor as much as possible so that when the end game is close, you charge in and take names. In other words, don't play a front liner if you're impatient. If you've ever watched a war movie, there's always a scrub that can't take the tension and charges into a row of machine guns to get mowed down, if you're that guy then NEVER PICK A FRONT LINE MECH!

[MischiefSC]

Nightbird, on 02 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Having 1-3 front line mechs is ideal, more is bad for your team. Their job is to be the anvil when the second line is trading and switch to be the hammer when the second line has softened the targets up. At no point is a front liner's job to be a shield though, you need to preserve your mech armor as much as possible so that when the end game is close, you charge in and take names. In other words, don't play a front liner if you're impatient. If you've ever watched a war movie, there's always a scrub that can't take the tension and charges into a row of machine guns to get mowed down, if you're that guy then NEVER PICK A FRONT LINE MECH!

That's brawl, not front line. In that example the trade mechs are the front line and the brawl push mechs need to get as close as they can without taking damage and either receive the enemy push while fresh vs damaged or push the enemy fresh vs damaged.

However all that requires some sort of coordination. The number of players who actually understand what trading and winning trades is and can play that successfully and consistently can eat together in the same restaurant. Maybe not the same table but it's like 50-75 total players. They are rare as hens teeth in QP. What you have in QP is not trade players but players who are scared of taking damage. Not making smart trades and giving up damage to do more damage but either fearful or just flat out incompetent players. Even if the smart play in a situation is to push and quickly kill a couple of mechs that are caught out to get an advantage they will just hide and wait and hope someone else does it.

That's the crux of the QP problem and "second line mechs". A good trade player is great. Always happy to have one on my team. They're aggressive and persistent and effective. That's now how your QP team is though, they're in poke builds because they are scared of getting hit and are just hoping to get luck and catch enemies focused on someone else in any given match. The guy in the brawl mech who makes the daylight charge over the minefield is just as worthless but not being one doesn't make you the other.

[Nightbird]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

That's brawl, not front line.

potato potahto

[Lykaon]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2018 - 02:43 AM, said:

Common sense dictates that one should only frontally attack the opponents when they are sufficiently weakened. And those "second line" mechs help weaken the enemy just for that purpose. Unless the opponents are complete potatoes.

This point right here is what "brawlers" frequently get tripped up on.

Brawling is closing in to finish the enemy in close(ish) quarters during a proper opening.

Brawl to soon and you may spend your mech maybe landing a single kill but wait for the right moment and you can dispatch several mechs.

Those very same "second line" mechs on the enemy team are your ideal prey. They are close enough to reach not idealy suited to sustained direct conflict in close quarters and frequently less heat efficient than a well designed brawler.

What I wait for to engage in a brawl are the following.

Opportunity to close in on an isolated enemy flank: I see one or two enemy out on a "wing" of their formation with ample cover for me to close in on them and sack em. I pay attention to the enemy target's loadouts and avoid mechs that can handle a sustained close quarters fight (no SRM boats for example) If the enemy mech is for example a laser boat I wait for them to fire off a couple of volleys to be sure that by the time they notice me they have a high heat burden. Good tactic on Polar Highlands.

Opportunity to push upon a weakened enemy possition: If I see several mechs with open torso armor/deprived of main weapons or clearly on the verge of collapsing I push and aim carefully. Target selection and well placed shots can quickly turn the kill count to your team's favor and is a potent moral boost. Frozen city tend towards providing this sort of opportunity as does Mining Collective or any densely covered map (cities)

Opportunity to utterly screw up the enemy's well laid plans. If I see a unified push on my team and I am in a good possition to intercept I do so. But the trick is do not intercept the front mechs leading the charge. Doing this just makes you the first to get killed. Hit the third or fourth mech in formation and put a scare in them. Causing a pause in the second wave of a push leaves the vanguard out numbered and easily dispatched. Doing this is not a tactic to win right now it's a tactic to win in a few minutes so...don't push to hard just get some licks in get those enemy mechs scrambling for cover and bug out for cover your self. If you executed this tactic well the few enemy in the lead of the push get isolated and die and the second and rear lines of the enemy fall back to a poke fight just now they are short a couple of team mates. Any map at any moment just get good at reading the enemy and guessing when is "the moment"

SACK THE LURMs! if I can get around the enemy and take down a lumbering lurmboat I will do it. I would say Grimm Plexus and Rubullite Oasis generally grant this sort of opportunity more frequently while maps like Alpine/Polar and Tourmaline can be punishing if you screw up.

And finally Polar Highlands IS a BRAWLING map! standing at range and getting pummeled to death by lurms and gauss shots is hopw to loose a fight on Polar. Closing rapidly in defilade and fighting up close is how you counter the Lurm storm. And if the match on Polar is domination then you just hit the brawler's jackpot there is no better example of a target rich brawling enviorment than a bunch of mechs standing in the open on the other side of the hill your team is standing on.