49 replies to this topic

[Richter Kerensky]

LRMs still suck and need a complete rework. Make them work in a way that actually takes skill to use but also allows them to actually do something. They have too many counters and are too weak when working completely perfectly to justify taking on any mech in any situation. Maybe make them shoot in clusters and home in on where you're pointing your cursor instead of the brain-dead fire and forget system. If you did something like this it'd be okay to improve their grouping, heat, and damage.

Yare yare daze.

Edited by Richter Kerensky, 28 May 2018 - 12:54 AM.

[Besh]

This...again ?

Edited by Besh, 28 May 2018 - 01:53 AM.

[Quandoo]

Use them properly. On less than 500 range. And in combo with other weapons.
They are only meant to support the push of your team, not to stand behind and spam.

[Kiiyor]

Quandoo, on 28 May 2018 - 02:10 AM, said:

Use them properly. On less than 500 range. And in combo with other weapons.
They are only meant to support the push of your team, not to stand behind and spam.

This.

Also, in support of and addition to this, in a game where you try to boat as many complimentary weapons as possible, LRM's are the odd man out, in that they need support weapons to address their weaknesses - and if there's one thing the masses hate, it's having more than one thing to think about.

If you can maintain your own locks, and have a weapon or two that can apply damage if your enemy is keen on peeking and putting pesky rocks between you and your damage numbers, LRM's can do well.

If you boat them exclusively from rear-echelon, or rely on your teammates to maintain locks, or fire them from any distance greater than 500m or so, you're going to have a terrible time against even moderately competent pilots.

Life sucks. Get a tag laser and risk your paint.

[Asym]

Takes skill to use? OP, a laser takes little or no skill to use. You put the reticle on the target and it hits the target: line-of-sight (LOS) is line-of-fire (LOF) traveling at light speed. WOW, the skill needed there.... How about AMS? How about MG's? Or, any weapon meant for brawling at 500m or less..... Ballistic weapons require skill at longer ranges.

All of the weapons need a "restart" and should be drug licking and screaming back into a round table with the developers and once and for all, BALANCE needs to be put on the table and the concept of "balance" established in clear and meaningful standards and limits, less all of the previous nerfs, buffs and quirks. A complete RE-DO where we can start over and make some of the "histories" clear and the future a logical and meaningful place, as customers, where we want to be....

Because right now, it's pretty screwed up across the entire spectrum of systems...

Edited by Asym, 28 May 2018 - 06:12 AM.

[MTier Slayed Up]

The problem with lasers vs LRMs is A. Face time - This requires you to actually be in the fighting. B. Aiming. This is a rather important mechanic, believe it or not, I see a lot of LRM boats with lasers that couldn't hit President Trump with a bazooka 10ft away, and C. You're actually sharing armor which a lot of people still complain about, me amongst them.

I would love for LRM's to not be this completely anti-fun weapon, where I either can't do anything to prevent my death via LRM spam from NARC on Polar, or half my team has this LRM mentality where they sit in one location and never move, ever and then die and say "GJ team for leaving me behind, DEHUR".

It's common and it's annoying.

Edited by DrtyDshSoap, 28 May 2018 - 06:57 AM.

[eminus]

be a BRAWLMER!

[Vxheous]

Asym, on 28 May 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

Takes skill to use? OP, a laser takes little or no skill to use. You put the reticle on the target and it hits the target: line-of-sight (LOS) is line-of-fire (LOF) traveling at light speed. WOW, the skill needed there.... How about AMS? How about MG's? Or, any weapon meant for brawling at 500m or less..... Ballistic weapons require skill at longer ranges.

All of the weapons need a "restart" and should be drug licking and screaming back into a round table with the developers and once and for all, BALANCE needs to be put on the table and the concept of "balance" established in clear and meaningful standards and limits, less all of the previous nerfs, buffs and quirks. A complete RE-DO where we can start over and make some of the "histories" clear and the future a logical and meaningful place, as customers, where we want to be....

Because right now, it's pretty screwed up across the entire spectrum of systems...

Lasers require a player to hold the entire 1 second+ burn on target to actually get good use out of it. The amount of players that I see doing the zorro Z across mechs with lasers because they can't aim is staggering. I've been playing LRM boats recently just for the lulz (LRM 80 Supernova A, LRM 70 Orion IIc-A, LRM 60 Hunch IIc-C) lrming at 300-350m, your opponent cannot avoid the missiles now with the increased velocity.

Edited by Vxheous, 28 May 2018 - 07:08 AM.

[Cloves]

eminus, on 28 May 2018 - 07:00 AM, said:

be a BRAWLMER!

Totally this. Sometime I can do good damage doing typical play with them, but honestly that’s probably just riding and supporting a stomp already in progress. My great games are when I play aggressively with them, risking myself alongside my team, exerting a huge pressure on as many folks as possible. This can also get me killed early. I feel any player that plays like a sniper is asking for his team to shoulder the damage burden places them at something of a disadvantage, regardless of weapon system. I am not saying you need to stand out in the open in front of the enemy team by yourself, but if you are with your teammates and shooting what they shoot, you will likely be a secondary target for folks that are getting actively hit by direct fire weapons.

Edited by Cloves, 28 May 2018 - 10:30 AM.

[Latorque]

DrtyDshSoap, on 28 May 2018 - 06:56 AM, said:

The problem with lasers vs LRMs is A. Face time - This requires you to actually be in the fighting. B. Aiming. This is a rather important mechanic, believe it or not, I see a lot of LRM boats with lasers that couldn't hit President Trump with a bazooka 10ft away, and C. You're actually sharing armor which a lot of people still complain about, me amongst them.

I would love for LRM's to not be this completely anti-fun weapon, where I either can't do anything to prevent my death via LRM spam from NARC on Polar, or half my team has this LRM mentality where they sit in one location and never move, ever and then die and say "GJ team for leaving me behind, DEHUR".

It's common and it's annoying.

Still this. I admit, i have no real idea how to implement LRMs in a way that doesn't either make them a completely overpowered indirect fire-and-forget system - as they have been several times already - or a lackluster and rather annoying secondary support artillery. I tried some IS-LRMs on my older, unused assault chassis, and one thing that still stuns me is the absurd amount of ammo per ton. Might be something to adress - if LRMs are made more powerful (either by improving them directly, or weakening the countermeasures), i want their users to actually watch their ammoand choose their targets instead of just farting out endless streams of missiles.

Whenever i miss with my AC20s/U-AC20s, i just know i wasted 20 points of damage and several seconds of cooldown of a rather limited ressource. With LRMs, i just don't give a damn.

Edited by Latorque, 28 May 2018 - 07:23 AM.

[Cloves]

Latorque, on 28 May 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

Still this. I admit, i have no real idea how to implement LRMs in a way that doesn't either make them a completely overpowered indirect fire-and-forget system - as they have been several times already - or a lackluster and rather annoying secondary support artillery. I tried some IS-LRMs on my older, unused assault chassis, and one thing that still stuns me is the absurd amount of ammo per ton. Might be something to adress - if LRMs are made more powerful (either by improving them directly, or weakening the countermeasures), i want their users to actually watch their ammoand choose their targets instead of just farting out endless streams of missiles.

Whenever i miss with my AC20s/U-AC20s, i just know i wasted 20 points of damage and several seconds of cooldown of a rather limited ressource. With LRMs, i just don't give a damn.

The 20 points from a LRM is not going to all hit in the same location, even if it by some miracle it all hits the target at all. So 10 shots per ton is too much? You want it to be the 7 an AC 20 gets? Fine, double the velocity, tighten the spread to pinpoint.

The fact you see the sky cloud over with bad shots is because LRM carriers will dedicate at least three or four times the weight towards ammo. The weapon system is so poor at pinpoint that saturation is needed to be effective. It teaches LRMers to take risky shots, start firing at first opportunity, and keep up a constant barrage. I am all in favor of making this change so that you will see more blended builds and fewer dedicated LRM boats. ATMs are more like what you are asking for, just IS does not get them. As it stands, you will not see a reasonable atlas or king crab with LRMs because they are such a weak weapon system in direct conflict. Double velocity is still very poor, having an alarm go off in your cockpit is a unique nerf that allows most players to very easily roll the damage if they cannot find cover, and they will always be a spread weapon.


edit- It all comes back to the alarm in my mind. You would not complain about 2-4 folks shooting you with direct fire weapons in polar since you are standing in the open without any cover, it's the alarm that causes this anxiety that generates all this bile from the average player. The best players don't complain about them because they are not a effective threat to them.

Edited by Cloves, 28 May 2018 - 10:25 AM.

[LordBraxton]

honestly LRMs are fine. they do work in quickplay and quickplay is 99% of mwo for most of the player base.

[MischiefSC]

LRMs are alright vs bads and QP is full of bads.

That doesn't make LRMs fine - it just means that most players in this game probably don't use VOIP because they have to play with a mouth piece to avoid choking on their own tongue.

Vxheous, on 28 May 2018 - 07:05 AM, said:

Lasers require a player to hold the entire 1 second+ burn on target to actually get good use out of it. The amount of players that I see doing the zorro Z across mechs with lasers because they can't aim is staggering. I've been playing LRM boats recently just for the lulz (LRM 80 Supernova A, LRM 70 Orion IIc-A, LRM 60 Hunch IIc-C) lrming at 300-350m, your opponent cannot avoid the missiles now with the increased velocity.

Please use LRMs just one drop in MWOWC this year. PLEASE. To see the LRM population go 'ZOMG IM SO META' and suddenly playing the 'meta' is totally, totally legit to them instead of saying everyone who does is 'meta ******'. Watching so many people shift their opinions so fast it makes your head spin.

It would be best day ever.

[Nightbird]

LRMs are supposed to be the easy to use weapons with low skill ceiling.

[Vxheous]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

LRMs are alright vs bads and QP is full of bads.

That doesn't make LRMs fine - it just means that most players in this game probably don't use VOIP because they have to play with a mouth piece to avoid choking on their own tongue.

EmP got LRMs to work in 8vs8 internal practice though for MWOWC 2017, on Tourmaline and Polar Highlands (yes, I know that Polar Highlands *is* the LRM map). Gaurantee that the 8 EmP that got lrmed to death by the other 8 EmP weren't bad, nor were the teams stacked in any way.

They're a very situational weapon system that's viable on certain maps with proper coordination (and a proper ratio of LRM mechs to direct fire mechs)

Edited by Vxheous, 28 May 2018 - 10:47 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous, on 28 May 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

EmP got LRMs to work in 8vs8 internal practice though for MWOWC 2017, on Tourmaline and Polar Highlands (yes, I know that Polar Highlands *is* the LRM map). Gaurantee that the 8 EmP that got lrmed to death by the other 8 EmP weren't bad, nor were the teams stacked in any way.

They're a very situational weapon system that's viable on certain maps with proper coordination (and a proper ratio of LRM mechs to direct fire mechs)

Yes, and you need a good enough team to do that even when the other team moves quickly. It's not that I don't think you can make LRMs work in a comp setting - it's that I want to see what happens in the community when that plays out. Especially if you win with it.

All the people who say 'I never play meta, meta is cheese' and the like would suddenly think that their regular **** builds with LRMs are now 'meta' (because they don't really understand the difference between their LRM10, LB5x, 2 ERSML Dragon and whatever the optimal LRM build for an LRM deck on Polar in 2/2/2/2 is) would now have to totally change their tune. 'Don't mock muh LURMS! It's the meta now! Hold locks and I'll totally win this match for u!'

Like I said. Best day ever.

[Vxheous]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

Yes, and you need a good enough team to do that even when the other team moves quickly. It's not that I don't think you can make LRMs work in a comp setting - it's that I want to see what happens in the community when that plays out. Especially if you win with it.

All the people who say 'I never play meta, meta is cheese' and the like would suddenly think that their regular **** builds with LRMs are now 'meta' (because they don't really understand the difference between their LRM10, LB5x, 2 ERSML Dragon and whatever the optimal LRM build for an LRM deck on Polar in 2/2/2/2 is) would now have to totally change their tune. 'Don't mock muh LURMS! It's the meta now! Hold locks and I'll totally win this match for u!'

Like I said. Best day ever.

I completely understand where you're coming from. LRMs are in a weird place. You can't use them as a "secondary" weapon in a bracket build, because they don't contribute enough, so they need to be boated, which makes you unable to solo kill another mech (unless they are stupid and wander into the open for 10+ seconds at 600m). At the same time, 1 boated LRM mech + 3 direct fire mechs on certain maps would probably decimate 4 direct fire mechs, assuming proper positioning, etc.

The velocity boost of LRMs have made them a bit ridiculous at mid range though, launching lrms at the 200-400m range at 230m/s velocity means most of the missiles will now hit target before the target can get back into cover.

Edited by Vxheous, 28 May 2018 - 11:01 AM.

[Anastasius Foht]

I see LRMS at current state of the game (in SoloQ) as support weapon only. Something like 3 ERLL + Lrm20 / Lrm20+ 3xAC10 for example (less than 40% of your alpha), also new Solaris map adds too much hate on them to be placed as "Main weapon". Played first ten games today and 6 of them was Solaris City - Lurm boats with <50 dmg on both sides get autolose/usless watcher experience. By making full lurm boat you losing too much versatility, lurmers that can get its own locks its rare species, so u need good map+team combination to start dealing above average amounts of damage (700 dmg from lurmer its around 450 damage from any mech that shoot torso exlusively - only exception is if you shoot light mech). Too many mechs do not use arms for weapons so ur damage to legs/arms is not counted as full contribution.
Oh and also new mechs with ECM - Fafnir + BAS and rest of them do not make ur life easier.

Edited by Anastasius Foht, 28 May 2018 - 11:34 AM.

[Cloves]

I am growing to love the Solaris map when it comes to light/medium LRM mechs. The short engagement distances forces good play and reinforces correct habits which transfer to the easier open maps. I actually believe that is is easier to LRM on this map than on mining as in mining you always have cover right next to you where in Solaris, you are fighting in a series of open topped tunnels with only the bridges to obstruct, and the LRMer can use the bridges to hedge LOS in their favor. It will be a painful growing experience for the "hold locks" crowd but really is excellent in that it has a different gameplay than the other maps. That having been said, if you are on comms, do give friendly feedback to your LRM teammates, tell them they are hitting a bridge or a building, tell them when someone is open and you would like help. I had a game today with my new nova in canyon where a centrally located LRM boat helped me with 3 heavies, would have been toast much sooner without the assist. I could tell him when to fire and when to change targets or hold off. The engagement did result in my death (as most do) but it was a sweet victory.

[Emden]

LOL LRM baby LRM.... If LRMs are your thing, use them.... if not, don't try to have them removed. I don't like clan mechs, should they be removed too?