114 replies to this topic

[Verilligo]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 June 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

Balance isn't as simple as just "make clans == IS" or "make worst mech relatively close to best mech, because there are infinite ways to achieve balance, much like there are infinite ways to balance two scales. Some states of balance are more fun than others. Some states of balance are more resilient than others.

And everyone has their own idea of what balance is supposed to look like. What some people may consider an ideal state of balance will likely be unacceptable to others. Battle Value and asymmetrical team sizes may appeal to certain lore grognards in the community, and some degree of balance could certainly be obtained using those methods, but how many problems would that system create and how many players will it alienate?

There's also many different contexts for balance. A mech or weapon system could be considered OP in one context and UP in another. How do you balance that?

I don't think you're going to have much success opening up his way of thinking. He has explained his concept of what balance is and then concluded that his word (in all things apparently) is factual gospel, rather than merely his opinion. At this point you may as well try to sell him a yacht, you'll probably have the same chances and at least if you succeed you'll get paid.

[Khobai]

Quote

Balance isn't as simple as just "make clans == IS" or "make worst mech relatively close to best mech, because there are infinite ways to achieve balance, much like there are infinite ways to balance two scales. Some states of balance are more fun than others. Some states of balance are more resilient than others.

of course theres a bunch of ways to balance the game. for example, using convoluted systems like ghost heat for example. how has that worked out for us? lmao.

PGI's ridiculously convoluted and overcomplex balancing methods have never worked for this game though. So why continue doing more of the same?

The most practical approach for balancing the game at this point is simply making clan tech = IS tech. and yeah it really is that simple.

you make sure clans dont get anything better than what IS gets. and you make sure the best mechs arnt so much better than the worst mechs that the worst mechs never get used.

as for making the game fun, balance alone isnt gonna solve that problem... even in a balanced state this game will be lacking in the fun department.

Quote

Battle Value and asymmetrical team sizes may appeal to certain lore grognards in the community, and some degree of balance could certainly be obtained using those methods, but how many problems would that system create and how many players will it alienate?

neither of those methods is practical.

if you limit balancing to practical methods only, the only thing you come up with is equalizing the two tech bases.

Edited by Khobai, 05 June 2018 - 11:43 AM.

[Stinger554]

Khobai, on 05 June 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

neither of those methods is practical.

if you limit balancing to practical methods only, the only thing you come up with is equalizing the two tech bases.

Well that or allowing mixed tech...which would ideally let people use clan tech on IS mechs. Including Clan DHS, Endo, FF, XL etc.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Khobai, on 05 June 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

of course theres a bunch of ways to balance the game. for example, using convoluted systems like ghost heat for example. how has that worked out for us? lmao.

PGI's ridiculously convoluted and overcomplex balancing methods have never worked for this game.

The most practical approach of balancing the game at this point is simply making clan tech = IS tech. and yeah it really is that simple.

you make sure clans dont get anything better than what IS gets. and you make sure the best mechs arnt so much better than the worst mechs that the worst mechs never get used.

as for making the game fun, balance alone isnt gonna solve that problem... even in a balanced state this game will be lacking in the fun department.

What do you mean by "Clan tech = IS tech"? Because there are an infinite number of ways to achieve that as well. Do yo mean Clan tech should be nerfed to match IS tech, or should IS tech be buffed to match Clan tech? Or both? What about weapon systems that have no analogues on the other side, like RACs, MRMs, ATMs, and the like?

How do you reconcile the fact that Clan tech, by lore, has lighter, more compact, longer-ranged, or harder-hitting than their IS counterparts? Do you weaken certain other aspects of clan tech, like cooldowns, beam durations, and AC bursts, and streaming missiles to attempt a "different but equal approach" to balance? Or do you just nerf the damage and range. Do you change item sizes and weights, stock loadouts be damned?

How do you rectify the significant space advantages the Clans have in DHS, ES, FF, and XL engines? Will you just give the IS side the clan equivalent, or give their upgrades and engines some other upgrade to compensate for their buik? Or do you allow the Clans to have this advantage to preserve the tabletop construction rules and buff the IS in some other way to compensate?

How do you quantify the differences in component hitboxes, hardpoint, and cockpit locations such that a mech with easy-to-pinpoint hitboxes and low weapons could be adequately compensated to make it equal another mech with a smaller profile and high-mounted weapons and cockpit?

Or are you proposing that they literally just make all the numbers equal and call it a day? Because just no one would be happy with that solution.

You make this sound much simpler than it actually is.

[Tordin]

Short?


Balancing are slow, over time.
MWO WC is over a short period of time.
IF PGI should balance change in regards to stock mode WC, they need to do that well ahead of time, so the Teams have time to adapt, give feedback etc

Edited by Tordin, 05 June 2018 - 12:12 PM.

[Novakaine]

Balance is simple a myth.
And that's the mistake PGI has long made.
Each mech has advantages and disadvantages.
Clan mechs are and should be superior to their IS counterparts.
However taking a page from "Lore" and I know that's a foul word here.
The IS should have had a numerical advantage.
The should have at least explored it.

[Vonbach]

It was a mistake to add clans in Battletech and MWO. Without ghost heat and quirks IS mechs wouldn't have a chance against clan mechs. If they just "lets clans be superior" you'd see the game turn into an all
clan fest over night. Unless PGI was nice enough to give the IS there own playground without clans.

Edited by Vonbach, 05 June 2018 - 12:36 PM.

[kuma8877]

Finals of the tournament culminate at Mechcon which is the launch event for MW5 (also following in line with the success of HBS's BT). It's really that simple folks. It's a theme, not a balance issue.

[UnKnownPlayer]

ok i didnt read half of this because meh, but all the players will ahve access to the same mechs and builds, it is by definition balanced.

Also the stock mech tournament i was in run by Devil Dogs was GREAT FUN, this might be too.

However the meta will out eventually.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Asym, on 05 June 2018 - 05:13 AM, said:

*stuff*

*points at pre-Clan Invasion era, Jihad era and Dark Age era*

Nope

Dragonporn, on 05 June 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

OP, do you seriously think that balancing thousands upon thousands of possible build combinations is even remotely realistic?...

PGI do, otherwise they wouldn't be pushing for MWO to be an E-sport.

Although this may be them admitting they failed. Who knows.

[M R T]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 June 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

How do you reconcile the fact that Clan tech, by lore, has lighter, more compact, longer-ranged, or harder-hitting than their IS counterparts? Do you weaken certain other aspects of clan tech, like cooldowns, beam durations, and AC bursts, and streaming missiles to attempt a "different but equal approach" to balance? Or do you just nerf the damage and range. Do you change item sizes and weights, stock loadouts be damned?

I don't find it that complicated. The answer to the lore part is: scrap the tech part of the lore. MWO is after all based on battletech, not actual battletech. Then make weapons and equipment as equal as possible within an acceptable margin of each other.

With lasers I would do something like this:
Make a base laser based on the battletech IS medium.
Assign variables for each of the following: weight, crit slots, damage, range, heat, duration and cooldown.
Figure out a formulae connecting all of these variables, giving them a ratio based on how much they affect all the others.
Adjusting any one of these variables, such as damage would require one or more of the others to be adjusted as well to compansate.

Adjust the variables of the base laser to create IS small, medium and large, and the same for clan lasers.
As long as the formulae is balanced, increased damage, range, etc, will have a corresponding drawback.

Repeat for all weapon types.

Challenge is then to balance the formulae, which anyone with some decent math skills should be able to do.

Edited by Morte Nilsum, 05 June 2018 - 02:17 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Morte Nilsum, on 05 June 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

I don't find it that complicated. The answer to the lore part is: scrap the tech part of the lore. MWO is after all based on battletech, not actual battletech. Then make weapons and equipment as equal as possible within an acceptable margin of each other.

With lasers I would do something like this:
Make a base laser based on the battletech IS medium.
Assign variables for each of the following: weight, crit slots, damage, range, heat, duration and cooldown.
Figure out a formulae connecting all of these variables, giving them a ratio based on how much they affect all the others.
Adjusting any one of these variables, such as damage would require one or more of the others to be adjusted as well to compansate.

Adjust the variables of the base laser to create IS small, medium and large, and the same for clan lasers.
As long as the formulae is balanced, increased damage, range, etc, will have a corresponding drawback.

Repeat for all weapon types.

Challenge is then to balance the formulae, which anyone with some decent math skills should be able to do.

It would certainly be much easier to balance this game if it weren't held back by the construction and gameplay rules of a decades old tabletop game, but unfortunately it kind of is. Imagine the flood of overly dramatic "I QUIT!" threads that would happen if PGI were to adjust equipment weights and such.

Dramatic changes to item stats would have been totally okay during closed beta, when the state of the game was still very much in flux and the stable of mechs was still quite small, but now? Imagine the headache of having everyone's mech builds suddenly become invalid or underweight. Some of us have hundreds of mechs that would have to be adjusted. People already throw fits over even relatively minor balance changes. It would be a nightmare.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 June 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Dramatic changes to item stats would have been totally okay during closed beta, when the state of the game was still very much in flux and the stable of mechs was still quite small, but now? Imagine the headache of having everyone's mech builds suddenly become invalid or underweight. Some of us have hundreds of mechs that would have to be adjusted. People already throw fits over even relatively minor balance changes. It would be a nightmare.

However, MWO 2.0...

[Revis Volek]

Because they cant and they have showed us that over 5yrs now.


PGI is so lost they think putting everyone in a Jenner with 4 medium lasers is gonna make for something thats FUN TO WATCH.

ITs gonna be 35 mins of pillow fighting, no thanks.

[Brain Cancer]

Stock 3039 mode eliminates some of the biggest balance headaches the game has made.

No Clantech. Clantech was literally designed to be as imbalanced vs IS tech as possible.

No custom builds. Custom builds maximize flaws in the balance system.

Honestly, they could have just picked a set of chassis and required everyone to use the same things and we'd have seen it as balanced as it could get, other than pilot skill. After all, identical robots means nobody gets anything the other guy doesn't.

[VaudeVillain]

Instead of stock, it should be level 1 tech only. That made the game fun for me again when I was getting tired of all the meta.

[Revis Volek]

Brain Cancer, on 05 June 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

Stock 3039 mode eliminates some of the biggest balance headaches the game has made.

No Clantech. Clantech was literally designed to be as imbalanced vs IS tech as possible.

No custom builds. Custom builds maximize flaws in the balance system.

Honestly, they could have just picked a set of chassis and required everyone to use the same things and we'd have seen it as balanced as it could get, other than pilot skill. After all, identical robots means nobody gets anything the other guy doesn't.

Which is just invalidating half the game and is dumb.


The mech lab is where many, many matches are won and lost. If PGI had any clue they would teach new players how to build mechs because thats half the battle right there.


Clan tech in TT was made to be better then IS but it was PGI dumb decision to leave it as so. They could have made it the same but they chose this path 4 yrs ago now all the mech i made, time i put in money i spent doesnt matter because PGI cant figure out how to play MWO.

[Brain Cancer]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 June 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

It would certainly be much easier to balance this game if it weren't held back by the construction and gameplay rules of a decades old tabletop game, but unfortunately it kind of is. Imagine the flood of overly dramatic "I QUIT!" threads that would happen if PGI were to adjust equipment weights and such.

The hilarious thing is many of the balance tools that exist in tabletop never made it into the MWO engine, like a heat scale that does nothing till you hit an arbitrary level then randomly melts parts of your robot off. Because PGI rapidly lost the ability to significantly modify their lostech (and incomprehensible) coding for the MWO engine, it means they're limited in the methods they could actually balance anything. The early MWO engine even had imperfect convergence, which meant snapshooting focused damage was considerably more difficult, but again coding limitations resulted in such things being sacrificed for a functional multiplayer experience, leading to it's own flaws.

[Revis Volek]

Vonbach, on 05 June 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

It was a mistake to add clans in Battletech and MWO. Without ghost heat and quirks IS mechs wouldn't have a chance against clan mechs. If they just "lets clans be superior" you'd see the game turn into an all
clan fest over night. Unless PGI was nice enough to give the IS there own playground without clans.

NO it wasnt

[Brain Cancer]

Revis Volek, on 05 June 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

Which is just invalidating half the game and is dumb.

The mech lab is where many, many matches are won and lost. If PGI had any clue they would teach new players how to build mechs because thats half the battle right there.

Amusingly enough, tabletop tournament play doesn't allow for non-stock builds, either.

Quote

Clan tech in TT was made to be better then IS but it was PGI dumb decision to leave it as so. They could have made it the same but they chose this path 4 yrs ago now all the mech i made, time i put in money i spent doesnt matter because PGI cant figure out how to play MWO.

The only way Clantech will ever be balanced 1:1 is breaking the tech tree entirely, as it's fundamentally built to be better than Inner Sphere design. Thus, Paul and company have done what they usually do when something is too broken for them to fix in an expedited manner- they simply break it completely, much like jump jets got the ream job back in the poptart era of MWO. After all, if you can't use it, it can't break a game.