114 replies to this topic

[K O Z A K]

there are well over 100 genders now, try to keep up

I used to identify as a timberwolf, but after experiencing severe and systemic discrimination as a timberwolf I have undergone a transformation and now identify as an ebon jaguar

seriously if you go that far balance is atlas=anni=spider=cheta, but at the end of the day the asymmetry of factions/classes/mechs/weapons is a big part of what makes this game fun and I would have left a long time ago if everything played exactly the same. Yet as it is I enjoy playing assaults, heavies, mediums and lights, I enjoy playing both IS and Clan, and I enjoy a whole bunch of different playstyles

[Xmith]

Has PGI tried to balance this game around stock mechs? I don't think so. It can't be possible with quirks and skill points being used to optimise the mechs.

It will be interesting to see the outcome.

[Khobai]

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OP, do you seriously think that balancing thousands upon thousands of possible build combinations is even remotely realistic?..

you dont need to balance build combinations though. because everyone has access to the same potential builds, thats already inherently balanced. And ghost heat still works well enough to keep most of the degenerate build combos out of the game (laser vomit still needs to be dealt with though).

what PGI needs to balance is build variance. you need to have multiple different builds that are simultaneously viable. and ideally have counterplay with eachother to prevent the meta from becoming stale.

likewise mechs need to be balanced so there isnt a huge degree of disparity between the worst and best mechs. that ensures that the widest range of mechs gets used. again to prevent the game from becoming stale.

and yes that absolutely is doable.

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seriously if you go that far balance is atlas=anni=spider=cheta,

thats why they shouldve incorporated a ticket based respawn system into the game.

because assaults should be better than lights. and having assaults cost more tickets than lights would reflect that.

trying to make assaults and lights equal was a mistake from the beginning. they were never meant to be equal.

Edited by Khobai, 05 June 2018 - 07:10 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Problem ...the Stocks not fair balanced and the most Stock mechs only worst useless builds against other stockbuilds..here no Dices for balancing it

[yrrot]

I don't get why people are so upset about it. I don't think it has anything to do with the game's current balance. The teams are also limited on only taking max 3 of the same weight class in each drop deck and no duplicate chassis. The only real complaint might be that it favors bringing clan mechs, since they have better stock loadouts with better heat management.

It's going to be far more entertaining to watch people work with sub-optimal mechs than to see everyone bringing the peak meta mechs.

[D34DMetal]

What I find hilarious about this is that people are still going to min-max the stock builds and pick the mechs with the most pinpoint damage.

[Khobai]

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What I find hilarious about this is that people are still going to min-max the stock builds and pick the mechs with the most pinpoint damage.

thats why the stock mechs should be picked randomly.

with both teams getting mirror lists.

then after getting the list, each team would decide whos going to pilot each mech on the list.


I mean the whole reason theyre using stockmechs is to prevent players from customizing and choosing their mechs. so why not just take that idea to the logical extreme? if youre going to do stock mechs then dont let the players choose the mechs at all.

Edited by Khobai, 05 June 2018 - 07:28 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

People really need to stop complaining about this already because this whole tournament thing doesn't have anything at all to do with balance. Hell anyone who thinks there is anything at all balanced about stock IS mech variants is high to begin with.

No this isn't about balance, it is about PGI trying to something unique and fun with the tournament and alot of spoiled children complaining that they can't use their sweet custom ride and that is the extent of it.

Seriously, this is no different than PGI saying they are using a double elimination instead of single elimination or any other modification of the rules. It would be no different if they said, Heavy Mechs only or hell anything goes. It is just a rule to establish parameters and that all that is going on here so sure, feel free to be unhappy with the rules but please don't make this out to be something its not.

[SFC174]

Viktor Drake, on 05 June 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

No this isn't about balance, it is about PGI trying to something unique and fun with the tournament and alot of spoiled children complaining that they can't use their sweet custom ride and that is the extent of it.

I'm not so sure about that Viktor. I mean, I'm no comp player. Never will be. But the trends out of PGI over the last year have been interesting to say the least.

First we've gotten nerf after nerf of Clan mechs, even as new IS mechs are delivered with substantial quirks (survivability in particular) and old IS mechs get their structure quirks converted to armor.

Then we get Solaris which pretty much mandates an IS mech if you want to do well. There are exceptions, but I don't think anyone can argue that Solaris is an IS playground.

Now we get an IS only MWOWC. That it's stock mech only makes it even worse, but.....

I happen to play both factions in SoloQ. Wolfhounds, Urbies, HBK and WHM on the IS side. PIR, HBKIIC, HBR, MAD-IIC and MC-II for Clan. They all have their appeal. But the scales are really tilting, and I can only imagine what would have happened if we hadn't dodged the Clan laser nerf.

Balance is a pendulum and it never stops in the middle. But the trend bothers me here. Some are suggesting all these things are done to push people toward MW5, or at least get them ready for it. I think that would be giving PGI more credit than they deserve, but whatever the reason, something ain't right.

Edited by SFC174, 05 June 2018 - 08:25 AM.

[StumbleBee]

Balance is hard. Arbitrary cut-outs are easy.

[yrrot]

SFC174, on 05 June 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

Now we get an IS only MWOWC. That it's stock mech only makes it even worse, but.....

Wait, did I miss something? Is it only IS mechs too or were you just saying it would boil down to that? Haha, that's hilarious if that is the case though.

[Asym]

Savage Wolf, on 05 June 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

@Asym

You are absolutely correct... if we were talking about novels, RPGs or single player games.

But MWO is a multiplayer only game and then balance and game mechanics are king and lore is secondary. So you are not wrong, the problem is that Battletech is simply not a good universe for a competitive multiplayer game.

I disagree; it is the perfect environment....!!! PGI "just didn't 'get it' and screwed it up ! And now look what PGI is reverting to, hmmmmmmm? Stock builds for eSports..... Why? Because balance is not culturally and technically achievable.

You are correct, BT, novels and the SPG's are in the era of the cold war, somewhere else... Balance never works. All FPS games have 'solutions' players work on, sometimes for a long time, but, all "levels" of SPG's are solvable and all levels of FPS create unforeseen complexities that balance only makes worse ..

On line games don't have SP story arc's and linear solutions and that is fine......what causes huge issues is that the legacy of the SPG's comes with the IP and franchise.....there are cultural expectations and no amount of rhetoric will changes those decades old expectations. I.e. you see an Atlas and the first response is "oh crap..." Even though the Atlas isn't the "sure death" it was 10 years ago.....

Once you start blurring the cultural expectations, anarchy starts to set in.... Then, everybody wants everything and then nobody gets anything of real value.... Arms races usually means that 'balance has run amok' and now, the game is so far beyond 'balanced control', the game itself starts to fall apart in the precision level and execution of damage in the game...

You are correct but, in the end, the solution is always the opposite of balance.... And, stock mechs are the answer and we see this just now being considered and advertised.........and, I might be mistaken...

[Verilligo]

yrrot, on 05 June 2018 - 09:44 AM, said:

Wait, did I miss something? Is it only IS mechs too or were you just saying it would boil down to that? Haha, that's hilarious if that is the case though.

It's limited to a certain period of time in IS history. During that period of time there were no Clan mechs, thus the WC is restricted to IS-only. This isn't due to balance, though, this is clearly a marketing tie-in for the tech base used in the vast majority of MW5.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

thats better for FW ..Planet XYZ ...Garnision 5 Stock Dragon XY...5 Dragon FZ ...2 Awesome YX 4 Awesome ZY ...1 Battlemaster ZX ...12 Jener DZ ...3 Wolfhound ZY . and further ...Attacker have in dropship stock mechs from further types ...lets fight

[MechaBattler]

Here we go again with the conspiracy theories.. It's because it fits the timeline of MW5 and Battletech. It's like they're trying to cross promote MW5's setting with the tournament. More over it sounds like it would be an interesting change of pace. It has nothing to do with balance.

[Asym]

Yes, it does have to do with balance, indirectly.

Watching eSports is about as exciting as watching golf.....

Stock build eliminates meta. Stock build, if done so out of lore, are more balanced weapons wise. If they make them play unannounced stock mechs, it would be even more exciting !!!!

Then, Pilot and team skill would be on display because they didn't get a chance to practice for months with specialized builds.

[MechaBattler]

There are going to be metas within stock mode too. You can bet it will get repetitive same as regular competitive mode.

[yrrot]

Verilligo, on 05 June 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

It's limited to a certain period of time in IS history. During that period of time there were no Clan mechs, thus the WC is restricted to IS-only. This isn't due to balance, though, this is clearly a marketing tie-in for the tech base used in the vast majority of MW5.

OH, yeah, missed the date on there. 3039 tech since that's the tech level of MW5, presumably. With the WC finals taking place near the MW5 release date, then that makes a ton of sense from a marketing standpoint. It will be kind of nice to see some old mechs get dusted off since they can compete in the stock 3039 environment.

[Verilligo]

Asym, on 05 June 2018 - 10:44 AM, said:

Yes, it does have to do with balance, indirectly.

Watching eSports is about as exciting as watching golf.....

Stock build eliminates meta. Stock build, if done so out of lore, are more balanced weapons wise. If they make them play unannounced stock mechs, it would be even more exciting !!!!

Then, Pilot and team skill would be on display because they didn't get a chance to practice for months with specialized builds.

Would you believe me if I told you that just because the mechs are stock doesn't mean that meta is eliminated? Because it's true. If you then randomize which mechs are available then you effectively remove any reason for people to play and train. The ONLY WAY you can build tactics and team cohesion is if you have SOME level of control over the tools you work with.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Khobai, on 05 June 2018 - 06:35 AM, said:

again its not subjective. balance is when both sides of the equation are equal. like in algebra. or balancing scales.

balance is when clan tech equals IS tech

and when the worst mech in the game is close enough to the best mech in power level so that all mechs are viable

theres nothing subjective about that. its 1+1=2.

Balance isn't as simple as just "make clans == IS" or "make worst mech relatively close to best mech, because there are infinite ways to achieve balance, much like there are infinite ways to balance two scales. Some states of balance are more fun than others. Some states of balance are more resilient than others.

And everyone has their own idea of what balance is supposed to look like. What some people may consider an ideal state of balance will likely be unacceptable to others. Battle Value and asymmetrical team sizes may appeal to certain lore grognards in the community, and some degree of balance could certainly be obtained using those methods, but how many problems would that system create and how many players will it alienate?

There's also many different contexts for balance. A mech or weapon system could be considered OP in one context and UP in another. How do you balance that?