95 replies to this topic

[eminus]

Tier ranking reset and a free mech!!!

[Nightbird]

Reset doesn't fix anything. Make it as easy to drop tier as to increase tier

[El Bandito]

N0MAD, on 06 June 2018 - 05:32 AM, said:

What diff does it make, the small population means that everyone is grouped into same games anyways, after a reset you would be playing same people as you play now.

It does make a difference, as every three months, I would be able to play with people that are competent, with good builds, for at least a month, during NA prime time. It would be just like September 2015 all over again. And baddies will stay at T4-5 most of the time, and have less chance of grouping with me. Although MWO's population is relatively small, it is still large enough to make tier system work to a degree.

Nightbird, on 06 June 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

Reset doesn't fix anything. Make it as easy to drop tier as to increase tier

PGI (or Russ himself) is dead set on trying to let PSR to have upwards bias as a rule. I doubt we can contest that--which is why tier reset is the next best (or easiest) thing to do. Although I wouldn't mind having both.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 June 2018 - 06:59 AM.

[Nightbird]

But a reset will just create a fox in the hen house situation? All the good players will drop alongside total scrubs and the match maker will create even worse matches than today. At least today the Tier 1s won't drop with T4s anymore.

[Xmith]

Resetting tiers would not make things better. In fact, it would be a lot worst for the lower tiered players. There will be T1 players bashing lowered tiered players to no end. As we already know, the rise in tiers does not happen in a few days. It is a slow process for the average player. Because of this, Formally T1 and T2 players would just make things not too fun for the new player.

Until you can come up with an idea that can benefit new players. Cool, I may be up for a reset. But it has to be fair across the board.

Or one can say, T1 players calling for rests are only trying to find ways to pad their stats.

[justcallme A S H]

Racerxintegra2k, on 06 June 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

IMO Its past time the Tier rankings were reset. To many average players are in Tier 1 (Myself included). Is the community behind a reset ?

It won't work unless PGI actually fix how PSR works / calculates and, the major one, stop letting wins count for so much if you under-perform in a win.

Which is what I said IN MY POST --->HERE<--

[justcallme A S H]

Xmith, on 06 June 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

Resetting tiers would not make things better. In fact, it would be a lot worst for the lower tiered players. There will be T1 players bashing lowered tiered players to no end. As we already know, the rise in tiers does not happen in a few days. It is a slow process for the average player. Because of this, Formally T1 and T2 players would just make things not too fun for the new player.\

Ah it does. The first 25-50 seeding matches would have most, legitimately good, players, in Tier 2... You can be Tier 3 in 3 games even if you are half decent. And you've essentially missed the key point...

The average player should never climb past Tier 3.

That is the crux of the issue. They have been allowed to grind it out to Tier 1 and should never have been allowed to get that far. Average puts you in Tier 3, center of the bellcurve... You are a case in point, your stats say you should be in Tier 3, no higher. That's not being rude, you are smack in the middle/average... No wonder you don't want a PSR reset!


If you think a PSR review / tighten and reset is part of some way to "Pad Stats", you literally don't get it. It is about improving game quality.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 June 2018 - 07:32 AM.

[El Bandito]

Nightbird, on 06 June 2018 - 07:07 AM, said:

But a reset will just create a fox in the hen house situation? All the good players will drop alongside total scrubs and the match maker will create even worse matches than today. At least today the Tier 1s won't drop with T4s anymore.

Except T1 players will quickly climb out of T3 (assuming PGI does what I wanted--which is a soft reset), while less competent players will be stuck playing T4/T5s for longer periods of time. As for T1s no longer dropping with T4s, I saw some screenshots indicating that is not the case.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Besh, on 06 June 2018 - 06:15 AM, said:

You could not have misunderstood harder XD . As it is now, it is pretty easy do go from T5 to T3 within say 40ish Matches...for anyone who ever played a Shooter Game I'D say . But that does not at all mean that all those people are ready to BE in T3, from then on having to face T1, T2 in their Matches . Soooo.....what I meant is make it harder so that not EVERYONE gets washed up in no time . The regular T1, T2 people will advance as quick as they deserve, while more mediocre ppl. stay in the safer Havens of 5, 4 for a bit longer .

At least thats the Idea....as I said, I have no clue how to accomplish that though .

That is false, not everyone will progress as fast as they will deserve. I for example have thousands of games, if i where to drop down to tier 3 i would need months to get back up a tier.
"IF" there would be a reset, the formular for matches played x matchscore needs to be reworked as well beforehand.

[Cnaiur]

Xmith, on 06 June 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

Resetting tiers would not make things better. In fact, it would be a lot worst for the lower tiered players. There will be T1 players bashing lowered tiered players to no end. As we already know, the rise in tiers does not happen in a few days. It is a slow process for the average player. Because of this, Formally T1 and T2 players would just make things not too fun for the new player.

Until you can come up with an idea that can benefit new players. Cool, I may be up for a reset. But it has to be fair across the board.

Or one can say, T1 players calling for rests are only trying to find ways to pad their stats.

There might be a very brief window where new and/or very bad players would have to face top players, but honestly I doubt they’d even notice. Because new and/or very bad players get abused by everybody remotely competent. El Bandito is much better than I am, but if you look at the stats of my T4/5 alt (Drunk Cnaiur) and compare them to the stats of my T1 main, you’ll see that it doesn’t really matter to players in that tier (T4/5) because either of us would absolutely crush them.

The benefit would be for the many, many players that are currently in T1 or T2 but aren’t actually any good. Because of the upwards bias of PSR and because they played a lot of games, they wound up in T1 or T2 but they’re overmatched by the good players there, which isn’t fun for them, and it’s not fun for the good players to have to carry them.

Finally, the notion that players who are ALREADY near the very top of the leaderboard are just looking to pad their stats is kind of crazy.

[Dogstar]

Cnaiur, on 06 June 2018 - 07:35 AM, said:

There might be a very brief window where new and/or very bad players would have to face top players, but honestly I doubt they’d even notice. Because new and/or very bad players get abused by everybody remotely competent. El Bandito is much better than I am, but if you look at the stats of my T4/5 alt (Drunk Cnaiur) and compare them to the stats of my T1 main, you’ll see that it doesn’t really matter to players in that tier (T4/5) because either of us would absolutely crush them.

The benefit would be for the many, many players that are currently in T1 or T2 but aren’t actually any good. Because of the upwards bias of PSR and because they played a lot of games, they wound up in T1 or T2 but they’re overmatched by the good players there, which isn’t fun for them, and it’s not fun for the good players to have to carry them.

Finally, the notion that players who are ALREADY near the very top of the leaderboard are just looking to pad their stats is kind of crazy.

I have to contend with a lot of this.

Firstly there are a number of top players, stat padders and/or seal clubbers around who would take advantage of a tier reset and that would lead to problems and player loss - it's all about estimates of numbers though so ymmv

Secondly PGI insists that there aren't that many 'bad players' in tier 1 (and 2?) so a tier reset probably wouldn't have nearly as much of a filtering effect as you think it would.

[Nightbird]

El Bandito, on 06 June 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

Except T1 players will quickly climb out of T3 (assuming PGI does what I wanted--which is a soft reset), while less competent players will be stuck playing T4/T5s for longer periods of time. As for T1s no longer dropping with T4s, I saw some screenshots indicating that is not the case.

Even a short period of T1s ****** T45s over and over again doesn't help anything. Also T2s are grouped with T4s, so you're looking at weeks of this. Unless you want more seals to club, this is a bad idea. There's already seal clubbing in FP, no need for more.

[Novakaine]

Yes please send me to Tear 5.

[Tatula]

Without actual data, it's impossible to be absolutely certain how the MM distribute players in a match. Would everyone be opposed to having their tier on display publicly? All the complaints from Tier 1 players about being grouped with Tier 4 and 5 players will be either verified by seeing the tiers on their team or nullified by seeing the "bad" players are actually Tier 3, 2, or even 1.

[Haipyng]

Aloha, on 06 June 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

Without actual data, it's impossible to be absolutely certain how the MM distribute players in a match. Would everyone be opposed to having their tier on display publicly? All the complaints from Tier 1 players about being grouped with Tier 4 and 5 players will be either verified by seeing the tiers on their team or nullified by seeing the "bad" players are actually Tier 3, 2, or even 1.

PGI has rarely been forthcoming with information about how things work or why something is done the way it is. They already have this data, making it so the rest of us can see it doesn't really benefit them.

Showing tiers outright just contributes to elitism. We see that in the forums already where someone's position is automatically invalid because of their score in a video game. I can hear the insults already..."Tier 4 Potato! Get Gud!" No thanks.

[justcallme A S H]

Dogstar, on 06 June 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

Secondly PGI insists that there aren't that many 'bad players' in tier 1 (and 2?) so a tier reset probably wouldn't have nearly as much of a filtering effect as you think it would.

Yeah and PGI insisted I was not getting T5s in my games a year or so ago and then I provided proof... They were wrong then and they are wrong now.

There are players in Tier 1 with 170 Average Match Score (AMS). The median AMS for the entire population is 200-230 AMS.

You have people, well below the median, in Tier 1. What PGI are saying is quite simply incorrect, no other way to put it.

Take the Tier 4 level players outta Tier 1, games will improve. Not by a lot, but it will be better than what we have now.

Aloha, on 06 June 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

Without actual data, it's impossible to be absolutely certain how the MM distribute players in a match. Would everyone be opposed to having their tier on display publicly? All the complaints from Tier 1 players about being grouped with Tier 4 and 5 players will be either verified by seeing the tiers on their team or nullified by seeing the "bad" players are actually Tier 3, 2, or even 1.

Problem is, and as I have repeatadly said, you have players that should be no higher than Tier 4 - making it into Tier 1.

This should never have been allowed however PGI have not gone back over or looked at the way PSR is calculated and thus players well below 'average' have made it into Tier 1.

[El Bandito]

Nightbird, on 06 June 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

Even a short period of T1s ****** T45s over and over again doesn't help anything. Also T2s are grouped with T4s, so you're looking at weeks of this. Unless you want more seals to club, this is a bad idea. There's already seal clubbing in FP, no need for more.

Soft reset is still better than constantly grouping with completely mediocre T1 players who are only there due to the amount of matches they played. They should go down and stay there, thanks to resets.

[Asym]

"Tastes great, less filling..." yeah, right....we're MWO light.... (light on players)

Low population. That's all that needs to be said. I can't see how any change is going to do anything that will improve retention or increase the number of new players... The farming and seal clubbing culture is so ingrained in MWO now that nothing but a hard, new total pilot ELO that is adjusted for each and every mech that is selected to play (a combat power metric), starting with everyone starting over again might, and that is might, work...

Playing populations have minimum requirements and we obviously don't know what PGI's algorithm minimum is; nor, what the real player counts are? What is a minimum viable population? We're beyond those numbers because we see T4-5's playing against T1-2's everyday.....

Who knows ?

[WildeKarde]

I don't agree so much as the mediocre players who have 12hrs every day to play will go up the tiers simply on volume of games. Casual good players will be in lower tiers clubbing new players going up in time for a reset to put them back down.
New players getting hammered by tier1 players on resets, then by casual players who don't play enough games to go up tiers.

The issue is not what tier you are in so much as the matchmaker not putting a balanced team based on performance stats. A single stat for tier doesn't balance teams - it needs to score a player based on other stats.

[Haipyng]

El Bandito, on 06 June 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

Soft reset is still better than constantly grouping with completely mediocre T1 players who are only there due to the amount of matches they played. They should go down and stay there, thanks to resets.

Asym, on 06 June 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

"Tastes great, less filling..." yeah, right....we're MWO light.... (light on players)

Low population. That's all that needs to be said. I can't see how any change is going to do anything that will improve retention or increase the number of new players... The farming and seal clubbing culture is so ingrained in MWO now that nothing but a hard, new total pilot ELO that is adjusted for each and every mech that is selected to play (a combat power metric), starting with everyone starting over again might, and that is might, work...

Playing populations have minimum requirements and we obviously don't know what PGI's algorithm minimum is; nor, what the real player counts are? What is a minimum viable population? We're beyond those numbers because we see T4-5's playing against T1-2's everyday.....

Who knows ?

This is a broad problem and both of you are right in your takes on it. What El Bandito says is a band aid fix, but we are far more likely to get that band aid fix then a complete reworking of MM at this stage of MWO's life. The engine is getting dated.

Gamers have had their bite of the apple at MWO and have formed their opinions on it. If they are not fans of the IP, they most likely are not coming back to it. The best thing would be to develop a new version of MWO and fix what went wrong here and rerelease it to fanfare to tempt players into trying it again.

In any case, PGI is concentrating on MW5, MWO 2.0 is as far away as the moon, and all we have is conjecture and wishful thinking to base anything on. .