845 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 June 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

Which equipment are you referring to? Because lore is a good enough reason not to give IS XL engines parity with clan XL engines if that's on your list. Tweaking the benefits of IS BAP ECM and TCs? go for it.

DHS, Endo, Ferro, TCs, APs, ECM, LAMS, NARC and yes, XL engines.

So, why is lore a good enough reason not to balance 2 pieces of equipment that have the same function, except one does it safer and for less investment, in a PVP only FPS?

Previous MechWarrior titles (MW3 & MW4 at least) just had MixTech, so it wasn't really an issue.

[Kin3ticX]

Instead of killing fun by using ghost heat or crosshair shake, id rather do something like drop HLL from 18 to 16 damage.

That change alone would change the alpha on my 2HLL 4ERML HBR from 64 to 60 without ruining it.

Then PGI could consider changing ERML from 7 to 6.5 damage instead of going ghost heat or crosshair shake routes. There isn't anything that says a ERML must be 7 damage except for some old book and a sarna page. You know what else isn't on Sarna? More ghost heat.

The miscalculation of going the prohibitive ghost heat route instead of just changing the sacred cow damage stuff cost us months of progress towards better balance. They scrapped the laser nerf sometime back in April, and then fast forward June 8th and instead of doing something it becomes a discussion.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 15 June 2018 - 11:35 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 15 June 2018 - 11:32 AM, said:

DHS, Endo, Ferro, TCs, APs, ECM, LAMS, NARC and yes, XL engines.

So, why is lore a good enough reason not to balance 2 pieces of equipment that have the same function, except one does it safer and for less investment, in a PVP only FPS?

Previous MechWarrior titles (MW3 & MW4 at least) just had MixTech, so it wasn't really an issue.

Because there is still a hefty amount of lore friendliness left in the product, and that aspect does make a pretty big difference for some people. When there is still an opportunity to play balanced but different, I'd think there's good reason not to invalidate the Light Engine and make the IS XL as survivable as the cXL.

The practice of making IS tech more efficient due to their extra weight seems to me to be the right way to go on most other equipment.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 15 June 2018 - 11:36 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 June 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

When there is still an opportunity to play balanced but different, I'd think there's good reason not to invalidate the Light Engine and make the IS XL as survivable as the cXL.

The practice of making IS tech more efficient due to their extra weight seems to me to be the right way to go on most other equipment.

I'd agree, the continuation of "bigger but cooler" or "bigger but sturdier" seems to please most people with regards to IS/Clan balance.

The XL is tricky, of course, because of the LFE, but PGI does love it's quirks

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Kin3ticX, on 15 June 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

Instead of killing fun by using ghost heat or crosshair shake, id rather do something like drop HLL from 18 to 16 damage.

That change alone would change the alpha on my 2HLL 4ERML HBR from 64 to 60 without ruining it.

Then PGI could consider changing ERML from 7 to 6.5 damage instead of going ghost heat or crosshair shake routes. There isn't anything that says a ERML must be 7 damage except for some old book and a sarna page. You know what else isn't on Sarna? More ghost heat.

The miscalculation of going the prohibitive ghost heat route instead of just changing the sacred cow damage stuff cost us months of progress towards better balance. They scrapped the laser nerf sometime back in April, and then fast forward June 8th and instead of doing something it becomes a discussion.

Well to be honest with you I would rather see the blue and yellow vomit combo be nerfed out of viability, thus eliminating the 96 damage alphas, rather than reducing the damage on 6 Medium laser clan mediums who don't cause any trouble in order to arrive at only slightly less problematic 89 damage laser alphas.

[Y E O N N E]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Well here we go. I gave you what you asked for. I can't give you more than that. I do well with these builds when I use them and I think its indisputable that MRM spam is one of the best playstyles around at the moment. I also don't have problems dealing with Gauss-vomit and I never have. That's just my experience. Maybe its because I favor mediums and spry heavies; I don't know how it is dropping into Faction play with a giant brick, and I don't know what playing Assaults is supposed to feel like besides feast or famine depending on whether or not you can get into position.

Clan big alpha (laser vom or gauss vom) isn't the end all be all, is all I'm saying. Is it a bit too flexible? Maybe, but its all the clans have that doesn't suck, and I am convinced that doing anything besides linking cLL and cML and raising the cLL Ghost cap to 3 is the overkill that will finally bury clan mechs, and it will certainly make me throw my favorite modest builds - the reason i keep coming back to the game - into the garbage can.

MRM and RAC spam is abusive in large numbers with certain specific 'Mechs. A large group dropping in QKD-IV4 with MRMs will just steamroll over damn near anything on all but the biggest and most open maps because nothing can burn through all of that armor before they get into effective range and a 60-80 punch at 300 meters hurts even when it's not instant. A bunch of Bushwackers doing RAC spam has similar results, for similar reasons and because the jam chance is too lenient.

But individually, they don't project the kind of presence that Gauss-vomit does. I do not prioritize MRM boat assaults because they are not going to be removing torsos in single shots on most 'Mechs at anything other than face-grinding range. RAC boats are easy to poke to death unless they have support when they expose, but even then you can kill his support and then kill him. But Gauss-vomit? 400+ meters away, torsos can and do fall off in single shots. Crippling blows get dealt to CTs. One well-played Gauss-vomit build has a larger impact on a match than a single well-played MRM Quickdraw or RAC anything, both of which require more time and risk to mess up a 'Mech in similar fashion.

All of that said, the major issues I find with the big alphas right now are 1.) that IS Assaults that aren't HGauss or heavy ballistic carriers are just not competitive at all, and 2.) that the Clan lasers have to be made as long-burning and hot as they are to keep the balance at the heavy side in check, resulting in Clan lights having few options outside of MG boating. From a higher up level, the fact that Clans are better at range trading and IS are better at close-range brawling is a major problem because most maps are biased one way or the other, and to make one side more competitive in the other's domain means one side gets shafted everywhere.

[Kin3ticX]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 June 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

Well to be honest with you I would rather see the blue and yellow vomit combo be nerfed out of viability, thus eliminating the 96 damage alphas, rather than reducing the damage on 6 Medium laser clan mediums who don't cause any trouble in order to arrive at only slightly less problematic 89 damage laser alphas.

Again, instead of prohibitively banning weapon combos entirely, I would rather do things like add some heat to Gauss Rifles. The sacred cow that is 1 gauss heat is allowing so many lasers to be used with them.

Sacred cow is a recurring theme in PGI's balance woes.

[Vesper11]

Kin3ticX, on 15 June 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

Instead of killing fun by using ghost heat or crosshair shake, id rather do something like drop HLL from 18 to 16 damage.

That change alone would change the alpha on my 2HLL 4ERML HBR from 64 to 60 without ruining it.

Then PGI could consider changing ERML from 7 to 6.5 damage instead of going ghost heat or crosshair shake routes. There isn't anything that says a ERML must be 7 damage except for some old book and a sarna page. You know what else isn't on Sarna? More ghost heat.

The miscalculation of going the prohibitive ghost heat route instead of just changing the sacred cow damage stuff cost us months of progress towards better balance. They scrapped the laser nerf sometime back in April, and then fast forward June 8th and instead of doing something it becomes a discussion.

I like how people (conveniently) keep forgetting that it's not only heavies and assaults that use those weapons but. already not popular. lights and mediums too and it's those mechs that can't simply switch to 10+t ballistics that get the worst of it.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Vesper11, on 15 June 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

I like how people (conveniently) keep forgetting that it's not only heavies and assaults that use those weapons but. already not popular. lights and mediums too and it's those mechs that can't simply switch to 10+t ballistics that get the worst of it.

I like how people forget that IS 'mechs are just fine with lower damage lasers and some would say they have the best performing Light & Medium energy 'mechs, even with much heavier ballistic & (somewhat heavier) missile options.

[wolvhound]

Okay here's one people have said before.

Give everything a battle value. Then take it a step further so that mechs in a weight class over a certain limit can't drop into quickplay.
Then put a total bv limit on the drop decks for faction play. All mechs are legal in fp but you have limit on points you can bring. Clan tech should be more expensive than IS but also perform better. With the bv limit if something breaks the game just increase the bv of that item. That way you don't screw over the light mech taking one of them but still get the desired effect of making the boats go away

[Hal Greaves]

Threadly reminder that increasing TTK does not benefit new players what so ever, and will further serve to diverge the skill gap between good players and bad players.

Listen to the community for once and use the sheet we created first before you do whatever it is you want to do. This will go a long way to resolving the core issues between weapon systems, without trying to balance around the individual skill of 95% players and up.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 15 June 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

I like how people forget that IS 'mechs are just fine with lower damage lasers and some would say they have the best performing Light & Medium energy 'mechs, even with much heavier ballistic & (somewhat heavier) missile options.

Dude I am not saying IS lasers couldn’t use some help, and IS lights haven’t been good for a while so far as I can tell and I can acknowledge that. Maybe when we are done solving high clan alphas, we should start talking about how to empower lighter IS mechs without turbocharging their assaults and heavies. #buffISsmallLasers

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 June 2018 - 01:41 PM, said:

Dude I am not saying IS lasers couldn’t use some help, and IS lights haven’t been good for a while so far as I can tell and I can acknowledge that. Maybe when we are done solving high clan alphas, we should start talking about how to empower lighter IS mechs without turbocharging their assaults and heavies. #buffISsmallLasers

I was rebuking the "you can't nerf Clan laser damage, because Clan Lights would suffer" argument with the "but IS Lights are fine with less damage, some are even great" argument.

But yes, buff IS Smalls & Clan SPLs

[Y E O N N E]

Jay Leon Hart, on 15 June 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

I was rebuking the "you can't nerf Clan laser damage, because Clan Lights would suffer" argument with the "but IS Lights are fine with less damage, some are even great" argument.

But yes, buff IS Smalls & Clan SPLs

Clan Lights suffer from long beam durations rather than low damage. I'd actually rate the cSPL the superior weapon for Clan Lights even after the nerf because the cERSL and cHSL just drag on for too long. Nerfing the damage without buffing the duration exacerbates it, but then buffing the duration commensurate with the damage nerf just makes the IS one less appealing, too. So we get into this chain of alterations just to accommodate that damage reduction.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 June 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

MRM and RAC spam is abusive in large numbers with certain specific 'Mechs. A large group dropping in QKD-IV4 with MRMs will just steamroll over damn near anything on all but the biggest and most open maps because nothing can burn through all of that armor before they get into effective range and a 60-80 punch at 300 meters hurts even when it's not instant. A bunch of Bushwackers doing RAC spam has similar results, for similar reasons and because the jam chance is too lenient.

But individually, they don't project the kind of presence that Gauss-vomit does. I do not prioritize MRM boat assaults because they are not going to be removing torsos in single shots on most 'Mechs at anything other than face-grinding range. RAC boats are easy to poke to death unless they have support when they expose, but even then you can kill his support and then kill him. But Gauss-vomit? 400+ meters away, torsos can and do fall off in single shots. Crippling blows get dealt to CTs. One well-played Gauss-vomit build has a larger impact on a match than a single well-played MRM Quickdraw or RAC anything, both of which require more time and risk to mess up a 'Mech in similar fashion.

All of that said, the major issues I find with the big alphas right now are 1.) that IS Assaults that aren't HGauss or heavy ballistic carriers are just not competitive at all, and 2.) that the Clan lasers have to be made as long-burning and hot as they are to keep the balance at the heavy side in check, resulting in Clan lights having few options outside of MG boating. From a higher up level, the fact that Clans are better at range trading and IS are better at close-range brawling is a major problem because most maps are biased one way or the other, and to make one side more competitive in the other's domain means one side gets shafted everywhere.

Again I cannot speak from experience with Faction play - I don’t play it and its dead - and I don’t use the comp queue - that’s moved on to stock mode. But speaking from the perspective of quickplay, solo and group, and from the perspective of solaris, Clan gauss vom might be a little out of line, but I haven’t observed it sh*ting on people and I haven’t observed it sh*ting on me. I mainly play with a Nova packing 6 Smalls and 6 Meds, I volley fire like a good boy, I get high scores, I get a positive solaris W/L ratio, and I have fun. I really don’t want my good time to get bricked because PGI had to nerf lasers again because Mad Cat Mk.II’s and Hellbringers are a little too good in the hands of comp players.

Thats why my suggestion continues to be to couple the cML and cLL ghost heat groups while boosting the larges up to 3 (possible exception of the heavy) because that actively adresses the playstyle that is out of line and has to some extent always been out of line without bricking non-offenders.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Side Note: Clans need HAGs man we’re starving for variety over here. And while you’re at it, give IS some X-Pulse Lasers with that sexy dark blue color they got in Mech4.

[YUyahoo]

Nightbird, on 15 June 2018 - 07:45 AM, said:

Giving everyone 50% hp buffs is the same as giving every weapon 33% damage nerfs.

Actually this isn't entirely true...because PGI isn't proposing weapon nerfs for everyone, Chris and Paul are only wanting to nerf clan weapon damage (again). PGI is fixated on how much alpha damage can be done by clan mechs only in this post, but in reality IS mechs can do bigger alphas for less heat and in some cases due to quirks they can do it with better cooldown. If the issue is that 94 damage alphas are outside of what PGI intended than limits to damage should be explore for both sides not just one. Or, as many people have pointed out just stop messing with weapon balance and look into making ALL mechs more agile (ok not really "more" but as agile as they used to be before the engine de-sync and all the agility nerfs/speed nerfs that came with the new skill tree) and/or make ALL mechs tougher again.

There are ways to make ALL mechs tougher without increasing armor values too. PGI could simply implement the same kind of damage mitigation that MMOs use to differentiate the amount of damage "tank classes" can sustain vs "caster classes" (or heavy armor users vs medium vs light vs no armor users). This would be another way to increase TTK without throwing away the last 4 years of balance work (and yes something like this would have to take different factors into account for a fast moving light vs a heavily armored slow assault mech, but it would be better than just adding additional armor to each mech and making a ton of armor give 27 pts of protection rather than 18).
There are so many different ways to achieve balance than just option "1" "2" or "3", you just have to think outside the box a little once in a while

[Kin3ticX]

wolvhound, on 15 June 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Okay here's one people have said before.

Give everything a battle value. Then take it a step further so that mechs in a weight class over a certain limit can't drop into quickplay.
Then put a total bv limit on the drop decks for faction play. All mechs are legal in fp but you have limit on points you can bring. Clan tech should be more expensive than IS but also perform better. With the bv limit if something breaks the game just increase the bv of that item. That way you don't screw over the light mech taking one of them but still get the desired effect of making the boats go away

Battle Values will never work.

Battle Values are basically just adding up the sum of the parts via accounting. The total is raw quantitative data.

The problem is, mechs have a lot of qualitative aspects which are not captured in a battle value. High mount, good hardpoint combos, good hitboxes, etc. Not only that, but more weapons and more BV is not always better.

Bottom line, you could make a ridiculous mech with a giant battle value that is absolute crap in this game, or you could make something with a lower one that is far better. PGI would probably never try to tackle something so flawed. It would need massive levels of fudge factoring the likes of which this game has never seen.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 15 June 2018 - 08:46 PM.

[Sparky424]

You know I really like this game, but more limits on clan weapons turns my stomach. Why would I spend time or money on a game where the IS will win most of the time. Theirs nothing wrong with the way it is now. The more I think about this ,well i won't say what I'm thinking but IS Mech getting weapon upgrades what do Clan Mech get bolt on which do nothing and cost c bills.

[RelativeQuanta]

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

[color=#FFA500]Clan Gauss Rifles[/color]

The 3 less tons needed to equip Clan Gauss rifles need to come with meaningful give and take compared to their heavier IS equivalents. Off of two clan Gauss rifles, the 6 saved tons over their IS counterparts is often plenty of tonnage to compliment the weapons with payloads that their IS counterparts are often strapped to compete with. This will be adjusted to offer fairer give and take between the two tech base's rifles.

[color=#FFA500]Option 1:[/color]

• Upfront damage reduced to something more in-line for the tonnage invested in the weapon, Other attributes adjusted to keep the same current DPS.

This seems like a pretty good option, but I have some additional thoughts that I think should happen if this is implemented:

• The explosion damage and low hitpoints of the cGR make it risky to carry. If the damage is lowered to IS levels based on tonnage and slots, then it should be at least as hard to destroy.
  
• Since damage is being adjusted, so should the number of rounds per ton of ammo to maintain total damage parity.

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

[color=#FFA500]Option 2:[/color]

• The Clan Gauss rifle is given a recoil effect similar to, but not as intense as, the Heavy Gauss rifle. No other attributes are changed.

This is actually my favorite option and seems the least disruptive way to ensure cGR can be used as they have been, but takes away pinpoint alpha potential when combined with lasers.

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

[color=#FFA500]Option 3:[/color]

• The Clan Gauss Rifle and all Clan Large Class Lasers are linked into the same heat penalty group.

I don’t like heat penalty groups so this is my least favorite option (see below laser option 2). I’m also concerned that the option to fire 6 cERM + 2cGR at the same time for a 72pt pinpoint alpha with a decent range of 400m would then have to be adjusted later.

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

[color=#FFA500]Clan Lasers:[/color]

The upfront damage of Clan lasers, and the ease of access the clans have at supplementing their fire with heavy upfront damage, at decent ranges, for minimal tonnage directly contributes not just to those Alpha's at the top, but a general lopsidedness in most build performance throughout the entire clan / IS lineup and often sees the Clan 'Mechs with access to a large number of energy hard points consistently outperform equivalent 'Mechs on the IS side. While the popular adage sees the belief that only a handful of 'mechs consist as "problem" 'Mechs, the reality is that as a whole, the overall performance of even an average clan 'Mech can put up are often consistently higher then what the average IS 'Mech can put up provided they have access to a certain number of energy hardpoints. This will be a change that is targeted to either raise the skill cap needed to utilized mass Clan laser fire, or will be reduced to a level that does not completely overshadow the IS equivalent weapons.

[color=#FFA500]Option 1:[/color]

• Upfront damage is reduced to IS equivalent levels. Superior range values are kept.
  
• Instead of superior upfront damage, we can reduce the cool-downs, heat, and other attributes to move the natural boosted per-turn damage that the Clan weapons are historically known for in the fiction, as a higher rate of fire leaving them overall where they are now, but shifting the added damage perks away from Boosted Alpha strikes and more towards higher overall DPS. Keeping closer alpha damage

This is my prefered option. In fact, this actually is a change I would potentially go for anyway!

• Depending on the tuning, this could actually make lasers a viable option in Solaris
  
• Boosts the variety of weapons clan light mechs can make use of without overheating
  
• My one concern is how pulse lasers will be adjusted to maintain their place as the “DPS laser.” They’d likely need to be adjusted up to justify their higher tonnage.

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

[color=#FFA500]Option 2:[/color]

• Clan Laser's heat scale triggers set to 30 damage caps similar to their IS counterparts. All other weapon attributes remain unaffected.
  
• This will keep the superior damage for the weapons as it is now, but mass lasers will come with a higher skill ceiling in order to effectively utilize the entire payload in combat.

Here are my beefs with ghost heat:

• It adds fake difficulty to the game. It may take skill to properly group your weapons so you can ride the ghost heat margin as closely as possible, but a clever mouse or key macro can do that same thing. Thus, new MWO players, or simply players switching from IS to Clan for the first time will be at a disadvantage for no reason other than a damage nerf mechanic.
  
• If you’re not macro’ing, hitting your next group fire button .1 seconds too early can shut down your mech and end your match. Not. Fun.
  
• Default clan mech builds will be plagued by this mechanic making new players much more likely to have a bad time if they pick to play a clan mech first

Edits: Format fixes

Edited by RelativeQuanta, 16 June 2018 - 05:59 AM.