864 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

If you and the new player on average contribute less than the median player skill, you're going to lose a lot more matches than you win. You basically have to be double the median skill to make this work. When you yourself are less than median skill, the question becomes moot.

[S O L A I S]

Dogstar, on 29 June 2018 - 02:27 AM, said:

The solution is for PGI to change who they are listening to, because frankly the information they are getting at the moment is quite poor.

Save that you don't have any information on the matter, only a want. Oh and that there's plenty of reasons it is a bad idea which you ignore because of your focus on your desire and not what will be good for the game. And then there's the already taxed matchmaker. So keep on trucking but it is not going to happen. Luckily though there are three other modes people can group up in. Hey one of em is even two vs. two!

[adamts01]

S O L A I S, on 29 June 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

And then there's the already taxed matchmaker.

Matchmaker could have been completely removed years ago and we'd have been better off. With the way PSR works, it really doesn't matter if we have a match maker at all.

[Nightbird]

adamts01, on 29 June 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

Matchmaker could have been completely removed years ago and we'd have been better off. With the way PSR works, it really doesn't matter if we have a match maker at all.

PSR is better than nothing/random. On scale of 0 to 10, it's a 2.

[Haipyng]

adamts01, on 29 June 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

Matchmaker could have been completely removed years ago and we'd have been better off. With the way PSR works, it really doesn't matter if we have a match maker at all.

In GQ there is no real matchmaker short of what it takes to put groups of different sizes into a 12 man team. No other sorting or filtering is taking place.

In QP, it's popularity holds because you stand a much better chance of a balanced game. For all it's faults it is doing something right.

[S O L A I S]

adamts01, on 29 June 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

Matchmaker could have been completely removed years ago and we'd have been better off. With the way PSR works, it really doesn't matter if we have a match maker at all.

Make an alt and test your theory out.

[Lykaon]

GBxGhostRyder, on 28 June 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

How about just plain NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How about PGI fix the QP group queues to play 2v2-4v4-6v6-8v8-12v12 with a check box option then anyone can play in small or large groups?.
play 2v2 [ ]?
play 4v4 [ ]?
play 6v6 [ ]?
play 8v8 [ ]?
play 12v12 [ ] ?

Making the UI have check box options to play any size group is so Fing easy for PGI to do we had this one before.

Plus PGI really needs to redo FP for solo non organized grouping 12v12 solo players then have the organized group queues for more experienced players plus better rewards.

Or how about we have queues for only red mechs or light mechs only or medium mechs only mechs piloted by lefties...

The problem would then be wait times would be very long because of splitting the queues into so many nitch groups.

As to your second part...

OR...or....or

Maybe the 12 solo players should use the in game VOIP and match lobby to organize and devise a plan so they are not "non organized" .

And I know what the counter point will be...

"But...but 12 player premades <sniffle> they club the poor puggies and farm us."

You need to think about what faction warfare actually is. It's several FACTIONS competing to capture planets. It's not about your match and your fight with that 12 player premade but the sum total of the matches your faction wins.

When I did faction war as a solo puggies I knew this and formulated a useful plan for my FACTION.

I may not be able to easily beat those 12 player premades with a mixed bag of puggies but I could make losing to them take a very very long time.

The result is your team keeps that 12 player premade's killing spree in check while the rest of your faction's teams don't have to fight that premade.

It's simple math. If you keep the 12 player team in a match for the longest amount of time possible the rest of the players in your faction can bang out wins against the easier teams.

This strategy works because dispite what many people seem to think there are not all that many highly skilled 12 players groups in the queue at any one time. The vast majority of drops will be the mixed bag teams.

And I know the counter point players will make to this point of view. And the problem is ...

Quick play is for casuals who don't want to patiently contribute to a factions eventual victory.

There it is,PGI built it for you heck they even neglected the grouped players and Units so it can exist in the format that best serves the casual solo players.

If organized players want to participate in a match that actually includes a match maker then they have to play by the rules set aside to support solo puggies.

Yet solo puggies can't grasp that if they want to play in faction warfare they may need to organize and behave like a group or more importantly as a functional portion of a FACTION'S war effort.

[Stinger554]

adamts01, on 29 June 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

Matchmaker could have been completely removed years ago and we'd have been better off. With the way PSR works, it really doesn't matter if we have a match maker at all.

Oh it matters because in SoloQ it prevents new players from playing against veteran ones. Having nothing would be worse.

[Bud Crue]

Lykaon, on 29 June 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

You need to think about what faction warfare actually is. It's several FACTIONS competing to capture planets. It's not about your match and your fight with that 12 player premade but the sum total of the matches your faction wins.

Not that it matters to the topic of this thread in the slightest, but actually, it’s TWO factions (e.g the IS “faction” vs the “Clan” faction, i.e. Russ’s “One bucket Solution” of days gone by) competing to capture planets, and if we are really honest its just few Merc units acting within those two factions competing to capture planets.

Just sayin.

Anyway, between booze, this thread, and Chris’s “we are going to nerf more of your stuff, but only after the pretense of a PTS” (I’m paraphrasing) thread, I am not sure I can get any more depressed about the state of the game and many in this community’s view of it.

[MischiefSC]

Astrocanis, on 29 June 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

Your post is well thought out, succinct, and, in my experience, wrong. Why do I say that? Because of the 10 people I have brought into the game, NOT ONE OF THEM STAYED.

While, AI would be a good idea for new players, we still don't have group tools, persistent chat (you can chat in game if you can type and drive at the same time lol) and in the "lobby" chat prevents you from being able to do pretty much anything else. There is no group finder. There is no "General" Chat. And, to make it worse, they added little blinking annoying icons at the bottom of the mechlab to tell you to "stop what you're doing and watch chat."

The in-game tools for this game are horrendous. The NPE is horrendous. The only people who stick around (in my experience - an attempt to fend of all of the "Not ME" idiocy) are people who are BT fans. That's a vanishingly small pool of players.

Huh. So where did the tens of thousands of people who played prior to the big die-off that came with the FW changes and changes to group queue? They were not all BT fans I can say for certain because having been in teamspeaks with thousands of different players over the years of FW not sucking most people were not BT fans.

Yes, the NPE sucked and still sucks. However that's got nothing to do with the nature of group queue.

[Stinger554]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

Yes, the NPE sucked and still sucks. However that's got nothing to do with the nature of group queue.

This is true; however group queue is bad for new players since the only matchmaking it uses is to match up group numbers. Which sucks but I don't really see any other reasonable way to do group queue that doesn't force people into specific group sizes.

[Humpday]

Dogstar, on 29 June 2018 - 08:24 AM, said:

You do realise that your chance of getting matched up with a pair of top players is miniscule don't you? Even with the tiny number of active players. Secondly the difference between the effect on the match of a solo top player compared to a pair is also so miniscule that it would make almost no difference to the outcome - you are going to lose 9/10 either way.

That argument is a piss poor one compared to the argument that allowing duos would benefit new players.

No its not, I've dropped many many times with all the people I've mentioned, and on daily basis.

What do you mean minuscule? All of those players are well known to carry entire teams on their backs, what do you think will happen when you put them together?

And I promise you, you do not want me and a buddy pairing up In Piranhas against you.

You wanna be salty, jesus, you're asking for it.

Its not good for the game.

SoloQ is solo, if you want, modify the rules of GROUP QUEUE, leave solo alone.

Edited by Humpday, 29 June 2018 - 02:08 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Stinger554, on 29 June 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

This is true; however group queue is bad for new players since the only matchmaking it uses is to match up group numbers. Which sucks but I don't really see any other reasonable way to do group queue that doesn't force people into specific group sizes.

Private lobbies or get them in with bigger groups who can carry/teach them.

Screwing solo queue and creating a raft of issues under the red herring of 'but think of the children/new players' isn't a real solution to a real problem. NPE needs a myriad of things; coop vs AI being high on that list.

This was never really about the new players though.

[Astrocanis]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

Huh. So where did the tens of thousands of people who played prior to the big die-off that came with the FW changes and changes to group queue? They were not all BT fans I can say for certain because having been in teamspeaks with thousands of different players over the years of FW not sucking most people were not BT fans.

Yes, the NPE sucked and still sucks. However that's got nothing to do with the nature of group queue.

You win. My experience is completely in error. My 10 friends are comfortabley playing this game and I'm a liar.

Feel better?

[edit] In addition all 11 of us are wrong.

Edited by Astrocanis, 29 June 2018 - 02:29 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Astrocanis, on 29 June 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

You win. My experience is completely in error. My 10 friends are comfortabley playing this game and I'm a liar.

Feel better?

[edit] In addition all 11 of us are wrong.

No, your opinion is still your opinion. Your anecdotal experience is still your anecdotal experience.

Just that opinions and anecdotal experiences are worthless for making game design decisions.

As to all 11 of you being wrong, absolutely possible. Why wouldn't it be?

As stated the NPE is bad, has always been bad and needs numerous things. 2mans in solo queue isn't any of them.

[Stinger554]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Private lobbies or get them in with bigger groups who can carry/teach them.

Screwing solo queue and creating a raft of issues under the red herring of 'but think of the children/new players' isn't a real solution to a real problem. NPE needs a myriad of things; coop vs AI being high on that list.

This was never really about the new players though.

Well yeah I wasn't advocating any changes. Quite the opposite...

[Lykaon]

Stinger554, on 29 June 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

Oh it matters because in SoloQ it prevents new players from playing against veteran ones. Having nothing would be worse.

And that would be the very center of this thread.

2 player teams of nubblets have to play sans matchmaker and have a "worse" experience because casual solo gameplay has been nurtured while organized group play has been left to rot on the vine.

Is there a solution that can be done now?

[Stinger554]

Lykaon, on 29 June 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

And that would be the very center of this thread.

2 player teams of nubblets have to play sans matchmaker and have a "worse" experience because casual solo gameplay has been nurtured while organized group play has been left to rot on the vine.

Is there a solution that can be done now?

A solution that would make it better for new players to play in groups?

I don't think there's going to be a solution that will be acceptable. Limiting group sizes is out of the question and trying to match via tier and group sizes is just asking for stupidly long queue times.

[Chortles]

Dogstar, on 29 June 2018 - 08:24 AM, said:

You do realise that your chance of getting matched up with a pair of top players is miniscule don't you? Even with the tiny number of active players. Secondly the difference between the effect on the match of a solo top player compared to a pair is also so miniscule that it would make almost no difference to the outcome - you are going to lose 9/10 either way.

That argument is a piss poor one compared to the argument that allowing duos would benefit new players.

Miniscule? Do you have experience against top players? You have no clue what a duo of any sort can do to solo players. Many people complain about 12-0 stomps. All people do is whine and moan about it, but they don't understand why it happens. Matches snowball easily because having just one person die turns the game into a 12 vs 11. A dead teammate is a teammate that no longer has any weapons; they are worse than a completely stripped mech. Focus fire adds to the snowball effect of stomps. Two mechs will always have an advantage over one mech regardless of size because that one mech will have to readjust their aim if it loses its primary target and has to switch to the other one.

Now imagine two EmP players in Deathstrikes grouped up in duo queue against ten random pugs and one duo group who may or may not be top players. Do you not know how fast focus fire from two Deathstrikes destroys isolated pugs? Hell, they don't even need to be isolated. I'm pretty sure EmP knows how to use terrain to block line of sight from the rest of the enemies even though they are together.

In solo queue, it is possible to win against top players - by doing exactly as I mentioned earlier. You need to counter snowball them; defeat the randoms until the veterans are outnumbers. Having a duo queue guarantees that they will always have an ally to back them up. I don't know what dimension your mind is in right now, but I would rather face against one top player who probably isn't coordinating with his team than two who will be coordinating with each other.

By the way, please tell me what good arguments the supporters have made?
New player experience? Only for the people who does duos, not solos.
Queue times? It will flood the duo queues with players and if each team can only have one duo, that's only four players taken off the queue per game. The amount of duo games will be dictated by the amount of solo games that can be made, so if less solo games are made less duo games are made.

Edited by Chortles, 30 June 2018 - 09:25 AM.

[Vesper11]

Chortles, on 30 June 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

Miniscule? Do you have experience against top players? You have no clue what a duo of any sort can do to solo players. Many people complain about 12-0 stomps. All people do is whine and moan about it, but they don't understand why it happens. Matches snowball easily because having just one person die turns the game into a 12 vs 11. A dead teammate is a teammate that no longer has any weapons; they are worse than a completely stripped mech. Focus fire adds to the snowball effect of stomps. Two mechs will always have an advantage over one mech regardless of size because that one mech will have to readjust their aim if it loses its primary target and has to switch to the other one.

Now imagine two EmP players in Deathstrikes grouped up in duo queue against ten random pugs and one duo group who may or may not be top players. Do you not know how fast focus fire from two Deathstrikes destroys isolated pugs? Hell, they don't even need to be isolated. I'm pretty sure EmP knows how to use terrain to block line of sight from the rest of the enemies even though they are together.

In solo queue, it is possible to win against top players - by doing exactly as I mentioned earlier. You need to counter snowball them; defeat the randoms until the veterans are outnumbers. Having a duo queue guarantees that they will always have an ally to back them up. I don't know what dimension your mind is in right now, but I would rather face against one top player who probably isn't coordinating with his team than two who will be coordinating with each other.

By the way, please tell me what good arguments the supporters have made?
New player experience? Only for the people who does duos, not solos.
Queue times? It will flood the duo queues with players and if each team can only have one duo, that's only four players taken off the queue per game. The amount of duo games will be dictated by the amount of solo games that can be made, so if less solo games are made less duo games are made.

TOP PLAYER BOOGEYMAN. SCAREY TOP PLAYERS WILL STOMP WEAK GUIZ! MWO WILL DIE YET AGAIN!!!1one
Really, it's so stupid to just point at top players and say those will make it worse for everyone instead of just looking at freaking statistics. Hell, PGI could just silently add one duo to QP from GQ with very small chance and see how it will affect statistics, it won't affect players on large scale but they will see the difference that the forums with constant whining and other vocal minority shenanigans won't ever show.

And now imagine tonnage restriction for QP duo, like 120t total, then p2w deathstrike won't boogeyman their way into QP, wew!
NPE is for solos only? Probably sucks a lot to be a guy with a friend because MWO is for solo wanking and big serious groups only.
4 players per game that I spend less than a minute to find solo while I spend 8 minutes searching for GQ game? Sounds like A GREAT FREAKING DEAL to me!

Edited by Vesper11, 30 June 2018 - 10:21 AM.