19 replies to this topic

[jjm1]

Lets discuss the nonsensical rules of lower-arm actuators, and maybe even upper arm actuators...

BattleTech has this odd rule that forbids OmniMechs utilising lower-arm actuators on an arm with ballistic hardpoints. This doesn't really make any technical sense, and is perhaps nothing more than a contrived rule to reign in clan mechs a bit.

MWOs implementation of lower-arm actuators on omnis follows this rule, but is also quirked by its implementation where you can opt to have an arm actuator on an energy arm and get a magical free one on your ballistic arm.

I'm sure plenty of people like me use that quirk to their advantage, but I have two proposals for changes to MWOs implementation of hands and actuators:

Method 1)

Standard mechs have the option (under upgrades) to add/remove lower-arm actuators. This affects both arms, only mechs that already have the actuators can add/remove them. Hands can then be added/removed on an individual arm if supported like OmniMechs can currently do.

OmniMechs work like Standard mechs, OmniMechs with at least one OmniPod capable of using lower-arm actuators can add/remove actuators from both its arms. This will break builds using one actuator in place of two, but its a fair correction to what feels more like an exploit than a feature IMO. It enables lower-arm actuators with ballistic hardpoints without it being a hack so it enables an OmniMechs to use dual arm ballistics to the same effect as a standard mech, and it means an OmniMech with lasers and an MG in its arms can remain as accurate as one with two arms packed with lasers and/or missiles.

Method 2)

Same as above, but with one radical difference: Arm actuators can still be optioned for either arm separately, but the free actuator exploit is fixed. This means there is a third weapon firing arc and potentially a third target reticle (Torso + actuated arm + unactuated arm), which adds a little more complexity to a build, but since an unactuated arm is locked to the torso but with seperated pitch I don't think it will be that hard. Personally I'm intrigued by this method the most.

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This will affect a lot of mechs, but only ones already gimped by fixed hand slots or OmniMech rules that hold them back even more, so really I don't expect anything OP to arise out of it.

Its just another something that's bothered me since forever.

[El Bandito]

Freedom for all mechs! Make actuators optional for all variants!

[Khobai]

I would much rather see actuators (especially hand actuators) do more than allow people to freely remove them.

What would be the point of having actuators in the game if everyone just removes them?

A large part of the problem is that we dont have melee and thats mainly what actuators are for

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MWOs implementation of lower-arm actuators on omnis follows this rule, but is also quirked by its implementation where you can opt to have an arm actuator on an energy arm and get a magical free one on your ballistic arm.

you only get half the range of movement compared to if you had two arm actuators though

so its not like youre really taking advantage of it

Edited by Khobai, 18 June 2018 - 10:40 PM.

[jjm1]

Khobai, on 18 June 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

you only get half the range of movement compared to if you had two arm actuators though

so its not like youre really taking advantage of it

lol. Over two years of playing the game and I didn't even know it worked like this.

[HammerMaster]

Every few months with this dumb (exploit seeking) topic. It's not properly addressed yes. But if it's getting looked at:
No hands? NO SALVAGE!
Has hands? YES! SALVAGE! Bonus! Hill cilmb boost.
Bonus bonus! Melee (keep holding your breath)

[NimoStar]

It is not only ballistics.

CERPPCs are nerfed as such that if you put them on certain mechs, you lose lower arm actuators (horizontal movement) and can't put them back.

But the identical-weight and slots Clan Large Pulse Laser (with better heat efficiency and pinpoint damage) doesn't lose you this actuator, not even the heavy large laser does.

Yet more shows that PGI loves laser.

[Y E O N N E]

PPCs and large ballustics (read: not MGs) are covered by the TT Omni rule concerning actuators. PGI did not arbitrarily decide it. Any Omni not following this in MWO is either using the exploit jjm1 mentioned or bugged.

[Abisha]

what if you do not have hands but Wolverine spikes... do it means you made of adamantium?

Edited by Abisha, 21 June 2018 - 11:59 AM.

[Bombast]

Hand actuators should just be removed from all mechs (In the mechlab, not the models). Their only purpose at this time is to screw IS mechs out of another DHS, or the occasional Endo-Steel upgrade.

[Khobai]

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Hand actuators should just be removed from all mechs (In the mechlab, not the models). Their only purpose at this time is to screw IS mechs out of another DHS, or the occasional Endo-Steel upgrade.

No. A lot of mechs would look stupid as hell without hands. Hand Actuators should be given a purpose instead.

For example give hand actuators a hill climbing and capture speed bonus (for conquest, incursion power cells, assault, etc...). if knockdowns are ever readded, hand actuators could also give a bonus to knockdown recovery time.

Thats probably worth 1 crit slot


Also IS-DHS should be better than C-DHS since they take up one more crit slot.

And IS endosteel/ferro should be better than CES/CFF since it takes up twice the number of crit slots

The problem isnt hand actuators. The problem is IS getting the same or less while paying more.

Edited by Khobai, 21 June 2018 - 12:54 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 21 June 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

For example give hand actuators a hill climbing and capture speed bonus (for conquest, incursion power cells, assault, etc...). if knockdowns are ever readded, hand actuators could also give a bonus to knockdown recovery time.

None of that is worth the loss in firepower associated with Hand Actuators on a 'Mech like the Nightstar.

[Bombast]

Khobai, on 21 June 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

No. A lot of mechs would look stupid as hell without hands. Hand Actuators should be given a purpose instead.

That would be why I said to remove them from the mechlab only, not the models.

[Khobai]

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None of that is worth the loss in firepower associated with Hand Actuators on a 'Mech like the Nightstar.

the nightstar is losing far more firepower due to IS tech being inferior to clan tech, than it is because of hand actuators

like I said the problem isnt hand actuators, the problem is IS tech being the same or worse while also costing more.

if you wanna fix the nightstar, balance the tech bases first, then balance the equipment and weapons, and if thats still not good enough give it better quirks.

but dont try to blame hand actuators. lmao. hand actuators arnt the reason the nightstar is bad. not even close.

Edited by Khobai, 21 June 2018 - 11:32 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 21 June 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

the nightstar is losing far more firepower due to IS tech being inferior to clan tech, than it is because of hand actuators

like I said the problem isnt hand actuators, its IS tech being the same or worse while also costing more.

Not entirely true. You can write it off as the Gauss and 10-class ACs being too big or the LGauss not having 10 damage, but the fact is that the 'Mech is literally a pair of hand actuators away from having a 65- to 68-point alpha that it can run reasonably well. No amount of fiddling with DHS or Gauss cool-downs or whatever is going to change that. A mere re-shuffle of what guns are where would fix the problem. That's not a tech issue, that's a 'Mech issue.

[Khobai]

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but the fact is that the 'Mech is literally a pair of hand actuators away from having a 65- to 68-point alpha that it can run reasonably well.

not sure why you think 65-68 point alphas should be the basis of comparison?

because clan gauss and CERML are overpowered and need to be nerfed.

CERML should do 6 damage. clan gauss should do 12 damage. a x2 Gauss/x6 CERML clan mech should only be doing a 60 damage alpha at most

the problem is way more that clan tech is too good than the nightstar needing a buff

the nightstar is probably the basis for where most clan mechs should be

and the hand actuators should definitely stay on the nightstar. but light gauss should also do 10 damage.

Edited by Khobai, 21 June 2018 - 11:58 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

It's the basis of comparison in the game as it stands, like it or not. I'm not bringing 95 tons to take firepower I can fit at 70 with just as many heatsinks. Sorry.

[Funky Bacon]

I want to remove hand and lower arm actuators only to get "arm-lock" without the vertical lock or stiff controls that arm-lock usually brings, basically turning your mech's controls into that of a stalker or catapult for example without having to engage arm-lock.

The increase in pod space is only a bonus.

[HammerMaster]

All these suggestions to remove the actuators is NOT a fix!
It's a call for a meta exploit. Plain and simple.
A FIX makes actuators perform a FUNCTION! To the effect of examples of salvage, melee, capping, hill climbing etc!

[Khobai]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 June 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

It's the basis of comparison in the game as it stands, like it or not. I'm not bringing 95 tons to take firepower I can fit at 70 with just as many heatsinks. Sorry.

if they balanced clan tech properly that wouldnt be the case.

70 tons IS would equal 70 tons clan

and 95 tons IS would equal 95 tons clan

that should be the entire goal of balancing the two techbases


again hand actuators arnt the problem here... the nightstar doesnt suck because it cant remove its hand actuators.

the nightstar sucks because IS tech takes up more crit slots and tonnage than clan tech and isnt proportionally better.

allowing every mech to remove its hand actuators isnt a solution, because no mech would ever choose not to remove its hand actuators, thus defeating the purpose of hand actuators being in the game.

it makes far more sense to give hand actuators a purpose. And then fix the underlying core balance issues with IS vs Clan tech.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2018 - 12:45 PM.

[HammerMaster]

And BIG SURPRISE! Clans don't balance vs Inner Sphere.