- c-gauss recoil will not make any changes, this will only add discomfort to those who don't play double gauss
- nerf c-lasers is a very strange decision if you are trying to reduce alpha in this way.
I think these are the best suggestions:
1) Recoil only for double gauss (ideally these are variable values for all ballistics but with additional buffs like projectile speed for example)
2) Increasing the duration of all lasers (ALL LASERS) ~ x1.5-x2
3) AND MOST INTERESTING:
Additional heatsinks don't increase the HEAT CAP (engine heatsinks still increase it, but the value can be decreased)
And remove coolshots
Easy, simple solution.
Heat mechanics has been added to limit, don't forget about it please!
Alpha strike must be similar to the Ultimate ability.
Players should not use alpha every time.
How is it that the community finally says "HEY! enough with the cool shots already!" and we can't take heed to this?
From the BEGINNING it was cheap(trick/exploit) and not needed.
Wow, the level of salt in the comments section over this is stupid. Is this the ideal solution to the problem? No. Is there even an ideal solution to the problem? Probably not. No matter what PGI does there's going to be whining and complaining from the players who are exploiting the current meta just like there's constant whining from the people on the receiving end of that meta. That's just a fact of life when people are able to customize loadouts that there will always be players who want to use whatever's got the most plusses to try to ruin the game for people who don't do that. I applaud the fact that they're even trying to address the issue instead of letting things just stay as they are. So what if things get nerfed or buffed, someone out there will find the next meta and the community will pile onto it until it gets 'fixed' and something else becomes the new meta. The plain and simple fact that they're even trying to balance things shows that they actually care about the game. I'll take that any day over them simply abandoning it and moving on to the next thing.
Grow up, provide them with the data they need, and then adapt to the changes they make the same way you've been doing the entire rest of the history of this game. Y'all sound like a room full of whiny preteens. Sheesh!
Nerfs have proven in multiple games to be bad for business. While the linked video has been shown before, I really think Chris, Paul and Russ need to take a look at it if they have not already. But basically what it is saying, when you buff, the fun comes back, players feel like they are getting a bonus etc.. When you nerf, it feels like the fun is being taken away.
Instead of nerfing clans to come into line with IS, buff IS to bring it in line with the clans.
I know this video and it's posted in almost EVERY gaming community (because all competitive games are broken if you ask their community ).
The video is not wrong, but often misinterpreted.
For instance look at 3:43 where the word "buff" in context of the video is defined: "New abilities and new options". Not raw stats-buffing what the community seem to want.
So for MWO it does NOT mean to buff everything to reach the top-performers. It means to identify on how to enable more playstyles. And as also stated in the video, this can also be achieved by nerfing smart.
For instance when PGI nerfs my favorite toy i usually think about other alternatives more and often rediscover things that are not as bad as the latest nerf made it look to me. So for me personally each nerf has the potential to make other builds more viable for me because the dominant builds are no longer the best way to go.
Of cause i would not say PGI always nerfs the correct things or by the correct amount, but they quite often do so in my eyes especially if the nerf-hammer hits my toys. That's because i'm good enough of a player to identify builds that work better than others. And if PGI repeatedly hits exactly the things i wreck most havok in (and force me to adapt and find a new overperformer), then they do at least _something_ right. If feels bad, but it's probably not that bad for the game as a whole as it is for me.
BTW: Don't fall for the illusion of perfect balance, it's impossible to achieve in such a complex game with so many lore restrictions like the type and number of hardpoints on mechs (that's why some mechs are DOA without massive quirks). There will ALWAYS be overperformers both in builds and strategies.
If they nerf gauss/laser-vomit the pros among us WILL find another statistically best performing build every single time. With luck the only thing that changes is how big the gap between the overperformers and the rest will become. But the gap will always be there and cause an endless stream of "everyone uses boring strategy X, nerf it!"-threads.
For me the real lesson of this video for US as players is that nerfs hit us harder than buffs feel good.
This means objectively nerfs are not better or worse than buffs. We just think they are worse because our favorite toys become less powerful.
If PGI would nerf everything (Damage and Survivability of all weapons and mechs) over the course of a year by 20%, then the game will almost play the same as if they would buff everything by 20% or do nothing at all. But because of this psychological aspect, we would cover them with a irrational major shitstorm if they decide to go the massive nerf route. That's the real problem, not that PGI uses nerfs a lot.
With brings me back to the current issue: I agree that PGI aims to increase TTK. And i say this as someone who likes QP because of it's quick matches compared to FP-Invasion. But it's to quick even for my taste. Most matches i participate are over within 6min, sometimes even within 4mins.
By buffing everything to match the overperformers this will likely decrease match time even further. I don't think that's better for the game, i'd rather like QP matches average about 7-9mins to give us a bit more time for maneuvering before the first 2 mechs pop and the snowball-effect kicks in.
So from this perspective high pinpoint alphas in general are indeed a problem because in the long term losing all armor of a component to a single hit due to small positioning mistakes is more frustrating than nerfs feel in the short term. Additionally they add to the problem of mechs often dying a bit too early and leading to a quicker snowball-stomp.
Anyone remembers the Direstar? Ask Phil how much fun he had when b33f oneshotted him... There is a reason why this thing is not allowed to be viable anymore regardless if it's a non-sustainable joke build or not. That's why even the mythical 94 alpha mech can be too much. The guy who get's oneshotted by a bad build does not care that the build is bad or kills himself by overheating. He was kicked out of the match without having time to react. And that's a thing to avoid if a game aims at casual and competitive players alike.
too many people requesting other things to get buffed instead of nerfing, gonna guess they're the people who run clan gauss+lasers most of the time... that's not how balancing works people... if people keep buffing weapons instead of nerfing them, Time To Kill on all of the existing mechs would be lowered significantly... getting killed in 10 seconds wouldn't be fun now is it?
on the other hand, nerfing the strong weapons will definitely bring them to level with all the other weapons, giving you more time to shoot stuff instead of 2-4 shotting them through their CT
the recoil effect to the clan gauss is definitely most welcome for me.. personally had times where i thought i fired the weapon only to find out i didn't... will be losing a bit of burn time on target with lasers but that's fine with me... also, IMO, the recoil effect should be introduced to all gauss variants depending on whats the weight of the mech carrying them vs how many are fired i.e if the gauss rifles are 1/3 the weight, give them a small recoil, 2/3, have them give recoil similar to the heavy gauss
as for the laser changes, will still have to see the numbers
Wow, the level of salt in the comments section over this is stupid. Is this the ideal solution to the problem? No. Is there even an ideal solution to the problem? Probably not. No matter what PGI does there's going to be whining and complaining from the players who are exploiting the current meta just like there's constant whining from the people on the receiving end of that meta. That's just a fact of life when people are able to customize loadouts that there will always be players who want to use whatever's got the most plusses to try to ruin the game for people who don't do that. I applaud the fact that they're even trying to address the issue instead of letting things just stay as they are. So what if things get nerfed or buffed, someone out there will find the next meta and the community will pile onto it until it gets 'fixed' and something else becomes the new meta. The plain and simple fact that they're even trying to balance things shows that they actually care about the game. I'll take that any day over them simply abandoning it and moving on to the next thing.
Grow up, provide them with the data they need, and then adapt to the changes they make the same way you've been doing the entire rest of the history of this game. Y'all sound like a room full of whiny preteens. Sheesh!
Exkommuniziert, on 26 June 2018 - 01:38 PM, said:
too many people requesting other things to get buffed instead of nerfing, gonna guess they're the people who run clan gauss+lasers most of the time... that's not how balancing works people... if people keep buffing weapons instead of nerfing them, Time To Kill on all of the existing mechs would be lowered significantly... getting killed in 10 seconds wouldn't be fun now is it?
on the other hand, nerfing the strong weapons will definitely bring them to level with all the other weapons, giving you more time to shoot stuff instead of 2-4 shotting them through their CT
the recoil effect to the clan gauss is definitely most welcome for me.. personally had times where i thought i fired the weapon only to find out i didn't... will be losing a bit of burn time on target with lasers but that's fine with me... also, IMO, the recoil effect should be introduced to all gauss variants depending on whats the weight of the mech carrying them vs how many are fired i.e if the gauss rifles are 1/3 the weight, give them a small recoil, 2/3, have them give recoil similar to the heavy gauss
as for the laser changes, will still have to see the numbers
See these two comments people.
these are the problems.
If you are wondering how people die so fast in the first 5 minutes of the game... look no further. Here they are thinking that its the weapon's problem and not how they play!
The PTS needs to be used as much as possible, to eventually provide some Feedback and actual results but also to show
PGI that there are players who haven‘t abandoned ship yet who care about improvements to the game.
So, maybe a PTS themed event? Goals may be the number of matches played, number of Times overheated, number of times a specific weapon was used etc.
It's not about clan weapons being OP. What people seem to fail to grasp is that GOOD PLAYERS ARE BETTER THAN BAD PLAYER. It doesn't matter what you do to all the weapon systems. People will always find the "best" builds in any game state. I wouldn't enjoy it, but I could be a better LRM boat pilot than all the potatoes. But why should it come to that?
The bottom line here is that the gauss laser "problem" is because everything else got nerfed. ER large laser spam is OP because dakka doesn't have 3x range anymore. High alphas are OP because we don't have gauss+PPC snapshot builds to counter them. There's no rock-paper-scissors for builds anymore. There's no risk-reward for your team composition. If your goal is to take away every playstyle that acts as a counter to LRM spam, then you're doing a great job.
1)Buff slow multishot cannons, not just nerf lasers. Right now the only usable cannons for clan are ac2 and lb10, lb20 for the most part. Maaaybe ultra 5 and ultra10 on a MC-II.
2)Remove coolshot
I also think that clan med pulse should stay 7 damage if cerml gets nerfed to 6. Because IS med pulse is also more powerful then a med laser.
To all delusional pugs who say “delay won’t change much”. Same pugs before you said that about gauss/ppc “just delay 0.5 between shots”. Do you see anyone running it now? Yes, because WHOLE FREAKING POINT OF THESE LOW DPS BUT PINPOINT BUILDS IS
TO SHOOT
THE ONE FREAKING SPOT
WITHOUT FREAKING 0.5 SECOND DELAY
WITH ONE ALPHA AND GET BACK TO COVER
YOU SCREW IT - YOU KILL PLAYSTYLE
Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 26 June 2018 - 02:03 PM.
the overall solution that we are looking to implement is one that directly addresses the damage discrepancy between the effective alpha damage cap of 94 damage on the Clan side compared to the 60-65 damage that the Inner Sphere typically caps out at
Unbe-freakin'-lievable. What about mobility increase to push for more different playstyle(s), what about...nah, I basically give up.
Edited by Notorious Meerkat, 26 June 2018 - 02:07 PM.
I think they might decrease laser alphas but actually increase damage per heat rations for clan lasers. Which will make them pretty good semi brawling dps weapons with all the heatsinks that the clan mechs have.
Did you watch the video?
If so, yeah, we only had one moment of true power creep. Clans release.
But the population keeps going down as what happens is the inverse of the power creep, things keep getting ****** and ****** and more and more the power curve is forced down. Even comparing balance between today and 2012 leads to "2012 is superior". By taking those words from the videos, the "power curve" got so low that what would compete against 2012 balance is considered "powerful" nowadays.
Kodiak might be a case of power creep by accident as PGI didn't release their **** working (aka, GH for cUACs didn't work, it was legit).
I think they might decrease laser alphas but actually increase damage per heat rations for clan lasers. Which will make them pretty good semi brawling dps weapons with all the heatsinks that the clan mechs have.
Also... if you are getting one-shot with the current state of the game... the problem is YOU!
Seriously?!
one-shot?!
you sure you are playing MWO?
You want to be able to face-tank a firing line in your LRM atlas and live for more than 5 seconds?
The problem of this game is that kind of mentality.
No amount of nerfs can make you survive a face-tanking encounter... NOTHING can save you.
You're absolutely right Navid. If someone is getting shot in the face and dies instantly there is no way a single mech did it to him, even if the 94 alpha dire existed and did it to him, he could twist after the gauss hit him and spread the laser damage (just like what you should do when being shot by laservom).
if he was out where the enemy team could see him and murder him from being shot by more than one person's alphastrike, its not the fault of the people who shot him.
I have never seen the 94 alpha dire in any game. I have seen 3 stagger-fire supernovas, and maybe 7 MadCats with heavy larges + Gauss that sit in the open long enough to get murdered by the three people who turn around to punch it in the face.
Being shot by more than one mech has almost always been what has meant the death of me or my enemies in QP. Only 1v1 light fights have been the exception. Its why the Dealthsrike never sits in the front line, because it will die if more than one person focuses on it.
With ridiculous hitscan laser damage to your CT 24/7.
Meanwhile your cannons at 250+ meters spread all over moving mechs.
Even right now sustained dps is better for clan laser boats compared to is laser boats thanks to clan DHS. Division 2 used to have a couple of top contenders usinn supernovas filled with like 9 clan med pulse.
See these two comments people.
these are the problems.
If you are wondering how people die so fast in the first 5 minutes of the game... look no further. Here they are thinking that its the weapon's problem and not how they play!
Generally i agree, almost all early deaths happen due to bad decisions. But the question is how forgiveful the game needs to be to not only appeal to the most competitive players but to more casual ones alike?
I think we can agree that oneshotting even some assaults like the direstar did would be too much for casuals. But where do we draw the line? Which amount of alpha would punish minor mistakes just enough that it matters for both competitive play as well as casual one without being frustrating in the latter environment?
Maybe the game could still be fun and playable on a highly competitive level without such big and devastating hits while also minimizing the frustration potential for the less skilled crowd?
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