657 replies to this topic

[Draconis March]

McGoat, on 26 June 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

The assumption may be, but in reality 90% of the players can't use this effectively and have sub 500dmg games.

My guy, there's no point balancing the game around the lowest skill level possible.

[Imperius]

Yup, not coming back to this game. Officially dead for me. I jumped off the ship because this captain has no idea of what FUN is. Literally killing off all the play styles. I found another island though.

Edited by Imperius, 26 June 2018 - 10:21 AM.

[Draconis March]

Chris Lowrey, on 20 June 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

Before we close this out, there is one bit of feedback that has been brought up in the thread that that we wanted to address. The feedback that if these changes where to go into effect, a reduction in overall damage output on the clan side, the IS side with generous defensive quirks would be too much HP to overcome in standard engagement situations. This is something that we acknowledge may be a point that needs looking into with the changes to Clan weapons. We will be keeping a very close eye on through the initial PTS testing and may introduce changes that address this point in future testing depending on the results we find from this upcoming initial PTS.

A nerf that begets further nerfs? How about instead of continuing to nerf everything, you listen to what people have been saying for forever and buff less viable weapon systems instead?

[PobbestGob]

As nerf after nerf goes through and one of the clans' few remaining viable playstyles is put down, we'll be left with more homogenized, uninteresting play. So many weapons in the game but only a handful are worth using.

[McGoat]

Draconis March, on 26 June 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

My guy, there's no point balancing the game around the lowest skill level possible.

They already are
They've openly stated LRMs are balanced for lowest tiers playability, and then buffed their velocity and ammo
MWOWC '18 is stock for "beer league" players and preventing minmax threepeats (surprise, we're 19-1 right now)

This balance proposal is specifically targeted around the lower end of the player base that cannot utilize these builds but knee jerk cry for nerfs because they are "over performing".

Yes, there should probably be some sort of adjustments as it's been long over due. However, do not flat out kill play styles because even the other 90% want to play it.

They've been given two sets of proposed changes that would bring much more balance to the game than this. I don't agree with all that was within those proposals, but it was far more uniform than anything PGI has suggested.

I am just grateful they're doing a PTS before saying, "We don't care, nerfs away!".

Edited by McGoat, 26 June 2018 - 10:33 AM.

[Jman5]

I still think making heatsink effectiveness taper off as you equip more is a viable way reign in these high alphas without hurting smaller mechs with smaller alphas. One thing all these clan laserboats seem to have in common is an enormous amount of heatsinks equipped.

I think this would also improve balance between the larger and smaller mechs.

[Navid A1]

Chris Lowrey, on 20 June 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

• 
  
  • Damage Reduced
    
  • Other attributes such as Heat, Cooldown, Laser Duration may be edited to account for the reduction in damage.

I can get behind this... I need numbers though
An example of bad numbers was what you did to clan small pulses... you overdid it there

Chris Lowrey, on 20 June 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

• Clan Gauss Rifle
  
  • Small Recoil added

So... where do I start.
how about...
STOP IT!!!

This is a clear example of changing things without even having a clue about the effect it has on gameplay.

Answer me this... Do you have any idea how many clan mechs use just a SINGLE gauss rifle?

Do you realize that the changes you are making is going to ANNIHILATE those mechs?

Of course you don't.

The thing that feels like a slap in the face is that Gauss rifles are not even the problem in the case of the 94 alpha strawman example.
In your quest to nerf the 94 strawman, you are KILLING the gameplay

I say strawman, because the 94 alpha mech you keep referring to is an imaginary problem. Its not a sustainable build... even on a direwolf. its only a problem in your spreadsheets!

CHRIS... STOP IT!



STOP IT!

Edited by Navid A1, 26 June 2018 - 11:26 AM.

[Runecarver]

So in order to address the few outliers with high alphas utilizing the current meta combination of heavy large lasers, extended range medium lasers and gauss rifles, you are proposing direct nerfs to the weapon system. Changes that will, in all fairness, matter to said high performing mechs little, and push mechs such as the laser linebacker, ice ferret, kit fox, adder, cougar and black lanner so far into the corner they're starting to amalgamate into a pile of disappointment.

As a solution, you propose to make inner sphere and clan lasers more or less effectively equal. ...also slap a stupid change to clan gauss for good measure for daring to be an actually useful clan ballistic unlike the rest of the damn things. How dare clans use at least one ballistic. If you're going to make it shake like a heavy gauss despite having 60% of its damage, how about you also make it not instantly explode? Better yet, how about making the standard clan autocannons actually USABLE?

The previous proposed changes would have changed nothing. Time to kill would have remained nearly the same, just a few loudmouths would have been paid lip service. These changes will either be the exact same thing but through the additional hurdle of PTS where outside of a massive outcry, no improvement changes will be made, or the changes will be so drastic they will utterly ruin any nuance in playing the game with the specified weapons.

[Mighty Spike]

okay, when even i ,as handycapped player with slightly lame left WASD hand have no problems with / against Clans, i think the rest can handle them too.
. I do not really like the Clans but everything is okay like it is now, so stop using your roulette table for balancing things

Edited by Mighty Spike, 27 June 2018 - 02:05 AM.

[Solzen]

Once again I feel compelled to point out that Gauss Rifles were never the problem. There are several mechs IS side that can take dual gauss which do the exact same amount of damage as the Clan counterparts and there have been 0 complaints about them. You can argue about tonnage but we all know that Clan Gauss rifles are more likely to be crit out than their IS counterparts which I believe is plenty of balance considering how easily you can literally lose half your mech because someone looked at your exposed torso funny.

I'm talking about raw damage. No one is complaining about dual gauss on either side of the aisle. What they are complaining about are the Deathstrikes, Hellbringers and Hunchback IICs. What do these all have in common? Heavy lasers and high laser alphas. The Nightstar can take the exact same build as the MKII but why don't we hear about it? Because it was never about the gauss. It was about the lasers. There is 0 need to nerf gauss rifles as the game stands right now.

When was the last time you saw someone complaining about a dual gauss Sunspider? Or any other clan mech that was really only taking 2 gauss rifles and maybe a couple of mediums as back up? The answer is never. They just aren't as good as you're making them out to be. So why are they so popular? Why do so many clan builds integrate at least one of them into their builds? Because the Clan ACs have awful DPS and the Clan UACs jam at the drop of a hat. And with the current way clan lasers are 'balanced' LBX ACs with their spread do not sync well with clan laser systems. Not to mention the fact that clan mechs suffer in brawls further due to their lack of defensive quirks. Very few clan mechs are able to brawl and those that do focus on SRMs and overwhelming firepower rather than defense.

The point is this: Clan Gauss rifles do not need a nerf. Stop looking at the surface of a problem and start looking at the roots. You did the same thing with MGs. MGs were never the problem, it was 1 mech that could boat 12 of them and your nerf didn't even slow it down consequently.

[Stinger554]

McGoat, on 26 June 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

http://mech.nav-alph...71ba8a92_ANH-1X

http://mech.nav-alph...82e46ac6_ANH-1X

Do I really need to explain to you the difference between that and this? Maybe it's the doubled effective range, or better ammo supply......

Edited by Stinger554, 26 June 2018 - 10:40 AM.

[McGoat]

Stinger554, on 26 June 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

Do I really need to explain to you the difference between that and this? Maybe it's the doubled effective range, or better ammo supply......

Outlier is an outlier.

And really, show me 10 games where you performed well above average in that build.

Edited by McGoat, 26 June 2018 - 10:43 AM.

[Stinger554]

Navid A1, on 26 June 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

So... where do I start.
how about...
STOP IT!!!

This is a clear example of changing things without even having a clue about the effect it has on gameplay.

Answer me this... Do you have any idea how many clan mechs use just a SINGLE gauss rifle?

Do you realize that the changes you are making is going to ANNIHILATE those mechs?

Of course you don't.

The thing that feels like a slap in the face is that Gauss rifles are not even the problem in the case of the 94 alpha strawman example.
In your quest to nerf the 94 strawman, you are KILLING the gameplay

I say strawman, because the 94 alpha mech you keep referring to is an imaginary problem. Its not a sustainable build... even on a direwolf. its only a problem in your spreadsheets!

CHRIS... STOP IT!



STOP IT!

How about calm the **** down....adding recoil to the cgauss isn't going to affect anything...it's worthless...

McGoat, on 26 June 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

Outlier is an outlier.

LOL not how that works and you are just proving PGI's point. Look at what the IS has to give in order to reach that level of alpha...they have to be within 270 meters to use it....

Should I compare it to a Deathstrike build? Cause it won't look any better and that's with the 80 alpha...

[Rydiak Randborir]

Thank you, Chris.

I'd prefer a 13 damage cGauss Rifle with a 4 second cooldown (net DPS increase in exchange for an alpha decrease), but I anxiously await PTS to test these changes.

Edited by Rydiak, 26 June 2018 - 10:46 AM.

[Stinger554]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 June 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

i feel these changes are the right direction for MWO,
personally i have been asking for Clan Lasers to lose 1Damage(and some heat) for a long time,
im looking forward to this PTS, and have high hopes for the balance changes that come from it,

My qualm here is how the PTS is structured...if it's 4v4 or something dumb like that then it won't really provide useful information.

Edited by Stinger554, 26 June 2018 - 10:46 AM.

[CK16]

Great feedback as usual from the community...all pitch forks and torches but no real answers. If you botch about changes atleast give them ideas how to improve instead of sound like a whiney child....

Show proof why X,Y,Z changed are bad, or need refinement. The truth is there is issues with Alpha warrior online l lately FoR BOTH SIDESx nerfs need to happen to make the game better for all...work with dev's and stop throwing temper tantrum

[PobbestGob]

Stinger554, on 26 June 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

Do I really need to explain to you the difference between that and this? Maybe it's the doubled effective range, or better ammo supply......

Also that build is on a direwolf with the poor hitboxes and bad durability that come with it, nevermind the less max/sustained dps. Also hits 80% heat on an alpha. There's not much comparison here.

[McGoat]

Stinger554, on 26 June 2018 - 10:44 AM, said:

How about calm the **** down....adding recoil to the cgauss isn't going to affect anything...it's worthless...


LOL not how that works and you are just proving PGI's point. Look at what the IS has to give in order to reach that level of alpha...they have to be within 270 meters to use it....

Should I compare it to a Deathstrike build? Cause it won't look any better and that's with the 80 alpha...

No. I am not.
They are specifically targeting an outlier that will blanket affect every single build below it.

You do not need to be in 270m or less to use that build either, 500m and it's still doing a fair amount of damage.

Give and take with each. Excessive heat with one, shorter range with the other. One is getting nerfed which snowball nerfs every build below it, the other isnt.

Edited by McGoat, 26 June 2018 - 10:50 AM.

[teh Reika]

i want install mw4:merc

[MischiefSC]

There's a big difference between mechs with an 80+ alpha at 300m and an 80+alpha at 800m. I get the logic behind the idea.

I'm not sure a small recoil to Clan gauss is going to kill all those builds any more than the huge recoil on 2xHGauss kills those builds.

I appreciate that it's being done on a PTS. I think the primary focus needs to be the CLasers; if the change to CGauss seems like it's a bit of a nerf but manageable however CGauss is otherwise bad because of health then buff health on CGauss.