63 replies to this topic

[Elizander]

I'd be happy to take a maximum range penalty on the Snub PPC to get the heat down to 7.6 per shot. Make the max range 360m to really shoehorn it into brawling.

I'm fine with LPPC just having a faster rate of fire. 3.0-3.5 seconds is fine. I don't even care if the ghost heat is reduced to 2 maximum.

The only good thing about the regular PPC is that you can alpha 4 of them and not esplode.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Cooler? Faster firing? BAH! No guts not galaxy, lets make them HOTTER!

http://www.sarna.net...i/PPC_Capacitor

[evilauthor]

Xeno Phalcon, on 21 June 2018 - 03:09 AM, said:

Cooler? Faster firing? BAH! No guts not galaxy, lets make them HOTTER!

http://www.sarna.net...i/PPC_Capacitor

Given the way PGI programmed MWO, PPCs with Capacitors would be completely different items from PPCs without capacitors, just like missile launchers with Artemis. So adding Capacitors would effectively double the quantity of PPCs in an already looooooong menu of energy weapons.

Oh, and Capacitors explode when hit. Since in MWO there isn't anything distinguishing weapon crit from dedicated addon crit, then ALL of a PPC with Capacitor's crits would be explosive. Wouldn't THAT be fun?

On the flip side, the really interesting balancing mechanic for Capacitors is that they don't cool down at the same time as the PPC they're attached to. It goes something like this:
1) Fire fully charged PPC with Capacitor for max damage.
2) Weapon cools down.
3) Once weapon is ready to fire again, Capacitor starts cooling down. Capacitor cooldown time is the same as the PPC it is attached to.
4) One of two things happens:
4a) PPC is fired again before Capacitor finishes cooling down. Damage is the same as a PPC without Capacitor, but firing early not only send the PPC into cool down, the cooldown on the Capacitor is ALSO reset and is waiting for the PPC to finish before starting its own cool down cycle again.
4b) PPC is not fired until the Capacitor finishes cooling down. In which case you go back to 1 and start the whole thing all over again.

So to get an extra 5 points of damage, you have to spend one extra ton, one extra crit, deal with extra heat, make your weapon explodeable on being critted, and double your PPC's cool down time. Or you can fire your PPCs at their normal rate of fire and not get the damage bonus, but if you're going to do that, why even bother mounting Capacitors in the first place? I'm not sure the Capacitor's disadvantages (ie, goes BOOM when hit) are worth a slightly more powerful opening salvo.

[Obiwayne]

Regular PPC's are not bad if backed up with some medium/light pulse lasers for short range engagements. But they are not special. I like them anyways because of their "kind of" pin point damage.
People try to push me a lot once they realize I got PPC's and are pretty suprised in a bad way when I switch to pulse lasers only once they are too close.
I would say they have their place and buffs would pretty much make them op. They are cold and can be used more or less continuously with a couple of heat sinks and for all other possible "applications" we have 3 more variants of it.
I honestly prefer them over HPPC's on most mechs because you dont have to make such big sacrifices in terms of heat management if you go for a secondary armament, which you need when using weapons with a minimum range.
Snubs and ER PPC's are completly different weapons and cant really be compared to the regular PPC or HPPCS if you ask me. They have no minimum range and they can be used without secondary armament if necessary.

[Reno Blade]

I will leave this here from my Signature-post:


I've tried to make each PPC unique and make HPPC a mix of multiple profiles that is worth taking over combining any of the other PPCs (e.g. LPPCs with PPCs).

PPC / LPPC


ERPPC / SNPPC


CERPPC / HPPC


PPCs are great for mid-long range and have 0 dmg min range
LPPCs have constant ratio and 0 dmg min range (so they are less efficient on mid-long range)
ERPPCs have highest direct damage (100%) on long-extreme only and have high splash on shorter range
CERPPCs is using increasing direct damage, but has good averages
HPPCs have some splash at min range, but get high direct damage overall (more than combinations of other types)
SNPPCs start with high direct damage but drop off quickly and also have a shorter range and damage drop

Alternative with constant splash ratios:

Spoiler

That way you get more total damage from HPPC and still can combine quite nicely the LPPC with the other types and also not making multiple LPPCs stronger than the other types (considering 2x LPPC would be 6+2+2 and normal PPC would be 8+1+1)

My Current suggestion for all the Energy Weapons stats (with only basic splash):

Energy:
- Pulse Lasers have reduced cooldown, but also reduce damge and heat, so you would need more face time for higher dps (dakka like ACs)
- Pulse Lasers have the highest dps
- Heavy lasers have longest burn durations and cooldowns cooldown, but good dps and heat values
- Standard/ER lasers have average stats, but lower dps than Pulse/Heavy Lasers
- all PPCs have unique splash per range, if possible, otherwise PPC, SNPPC and HPPC/cERPPC have splash (and get lower heat) while ERPPC and LPPC do not have splash (updated) but keep their high heat

[Y E O N N E]

Reno Blade, on 21 June 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

I will leave this here from my Signature-post:
I've tried to make each PPC unique and make HPPC a mix of multiple profiles that is worth taking over combining any of the other PPCs (e.g. LPPCs with PPCs).

You will find almost no support for splashy PPCs. Your changes are meant to be a component of a broader paradigm shift applied to the entire set of equipment, ergo it us fruitless to suggest them as piecemeal, standalone changes against the rest of the existing system. I do not want and will not tolerate it in the game in that context.

[IllCaesar]

I agree with most of these buff ideas, particularly reducing because that is the biggest limiting factor on PPCs by far, but I don't agree all of the changes.

I think the ERPPC needs either better range or velocity. If you're going to take the ERPPC over the PPC it's because of the ER part. Make that worth it. Either extend the range or increase the velocity. Yeah, it's pretty fast as is but we're talking about hitting foes at a range of roughly a kilometer. Say "git gud" as much as you like but sniping at that range can be tough foes can move from cover to cover before you can get a chance to actually hit them. This would also give it a leg up on the Gauss Rifle in at least one area.

For the Snubnose PPCs I think the range works fine. They're called "Snubnose" for a reason. Their reduced weight and range while having no minimum arm range opens them up to do a lot of things that other PPCs can't do as well and extending their range doesn't help them do any of that. I'd rather see a reduction in cooldown.

Edited by IllCaesar, 21 June 2018 - 12:44 PM.

[NimoStar]

What PPCs need to be useful is capacitors.

In tabletop a PPC with capacitor costs 1 more ton, 1 more slot, and deals 5 extra damage, with 5 extra heat.

IS ppcs could benefit a lot with this.

You cpuld also make them charge like gauss (after all this is what a capacitor does, charge energy) and the extra damage be spread like the one in CERPPCs.

Edited by NimoStar, 21 June 2018 - 02:39 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

NimoStar, on 21 June 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

What PPCs need to be useful is capacitors.

In tabletop a PPC with capacitor costs 1 more ton, 1 more slot, and deals 5 extra damage, with 5 extra heat.

IS ppcs could benefit a lot with this.

You cpuld also make them charge like gauss (after all this is what a capacitor does, charge energy) and the extra damage be spread like the one in CERPPCs.

I'd like capacitors too. But we need to redefine the other weapons, cause we'll just see the same trend over and over - HPPC being the goto, the PPC being ignored because it doesn't hit as hard with the GH limit, SNPPC being too hot for it's band of range, LPPC being too lame, and ERPPC being too situational.

IllCaesar, on 21 June 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

For the Snubnose PPCs I think the range works fine. They're called "Snubnose" for a reason. Their reduced weight and range while having no minimum arm range opens them up to do a lot of things that other PPCs can't do as well and extending their range doesn't help them do any of that. I'd rather see a reduction in cooldown.

Well, sure the range is okay. But still it needs heat buff if it were to be relevant to it's supposedly close-range role.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 June 2018 - 03:10 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Well, since the polls say that HPPC should stay as it is, I can't help to agree. However with respect to the rest of the PPC, i've only changed the heat to 14 from 14.5, and it's minimum range being progressive damage fall off -- that 0.5 heat affects the difference between the GH limits of normal PPC and HPPC's sum, with PPC yielding 28.5 vs 28 of HPPC.

By the way, the PPC also only have minimum change, the 1300 velocity is there to disturb the convergence of different PPC types, and heat has been retained to 9.5, but still has 3 GH limit. I think it's practically fine already with the ghost-heat limit change alone it's already competitive with the HPPC.

The LPPC has now been buffed to 1400 projectile speed -- cause lets face it, LPPC is lame as ****, and also to disturb the convergence between PPC classes.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 June 2018 - 03:43 PM.

[NimoStar]

Quote

I'd like capacitors too. But we need to redefine the other weapons, cause we'll just see the same trend over and over - HPPC being the goto, the PPC being ignored because it doesn't hit as hard with the GH limit, SNPPC being too hot for it's band of range, LPPC being too lame, and ERPPC being too situational.

I agree with that, but other than the HPPC, the rest of IS PPCs aren't even competitive (hell, even CERPPC are not that competitive now, with the best players preferring lasers and ACs), to which I proposed capacitors.

Redefining roles better, I think the rest have more time to figure it out better. Though I did think the "snubs are hotter than regular ppcs" was dumb, their range could be diminshed further to make them less hot; and the regular PPC "no damage on minimum range" would be better as damage falloff.

As for lightppc, they should have better ROF, much like light gauss.

Edited by NimoStar, 21 June 2018 - 03:54 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2018 - 11:14 PM, said:

I suppose it is quite a conundrum there, but is that really that bad? I mean sure the 2x PPCs is kinda phased out, but then 3x PPC is also available, and the point of the GH tweaks in this context is have them at max limit competitive at the max limit of other weapons right?

Applications of either 2x PPC or 4x LPPC could also be further differentiated with what they want to achieve, such as whether they're the type that barrels down on targets through constant fire, or would they want a cooler weapon that would yield better heat overtime that allows them to be paired with weapons with less DHS needed for otherwise sustained fire, or because they couldn't spare slots slot-intensive builds (because 2x PPC = 6 slots vs 4x LPPC + 2 DHS = 14 slots), or they want less exposure by hit-and-run weapons that allows them to dump a good amount of damage and cool off in between, even convergence if they worry about those.

I mean isn't it obvious that LPPCs would have a comparatively rapid rate of fire in which i would argue that it will provide a tendency to stare, and would result in higher HPS and dependency to Heat Sinks? And it could be set up that LPPC has worse damage/heat next to ERPPC, and i am even considering that.

And if the problems are specific mechs, wouldn't it be prudent to simply tweak the mechs themselves? After all, the entire PPC series for IS would be rebalanced.

This is why you should just leave it at 3, it neatly solves the problem for you. By raising it to 4, you've created your own conundrum. Having a 2.5 second cooldown alone makes LPPC more desirable for DPS-oriented builds even with only 3x because 3x LPPC is 6 DPS and 15 heat per volley while 2x PPC is 5 DPS and and 18 heat per volley. What more do I need here?

Adding heat is really not the answer, because there is no point in having a DPS weapon if it's too hot to feasibly DPS with.

Quote

Imagine Warhammers with 2x UAC5 + 4x LPPC (that has 2.5 CD), be-e-a-yu-tiful.

Too hot with a D/H ratio of 1 and UACs being as hot as they currently are, as you only realistically have 12 DHS running an LFE280; I don't consider going XL to fit more worth the trade, not when 3 LPPC would already be more DPS than the old UAC+PPC build for the cost of 5 alpha.

Once again, creating your own monster by trying to make 4 work.

Quote

That was the SNPPC at 8, whereas the PPC used to be at 8.5 -- the model puts the SNPPC having the best damage/heat in the class. I'm even considering 4.5s cooldown.

Granted.

4.5 cooldown would be abysmal. The SN-PPC operates in a bracket where it has to face off against weapons with much, much faster cycle times. It can't afford to shoot so little, this basically encodes the slower rate of fire the current level of heat compels and that is bad. Really, it ought to be faster than a standard PPC, which has range to allow it time to work.

Quote

But what about the current tweak?

I wasn't a fan of what you did to the velocities (1000 m/s LPPC pls no), and still ain't. One of the virtues of the current arrangement is that I don't have to re-train myself to use each PPC, save the ERPPC. I am actually a better shot with PPC than I am with ERPPC despite the ER having dramatically superior travel time simply because of practice. IMHO, just bump all except the ER and Snub to 1400 m/s and let heat, damage, range, and cool-down do the rest.

I'm torn on the Snub being lowered to 950. On the one hand, that makes it sync better with AC/20s and SRMs. On the other hand, it makes more off-beat (but still potent) builds like the pop-tart Arrow less effective because they'll have to hover a little more to calculate deflection.

I also rather prefer this arrangement:

Spoiler

LPPC
Damage: 5
Heat: 4.5
Cooldown: 2.5
Range: 540/1080 (hard limit under 90)
Velocity: 1400 m/s
GH: 3

So long as the LPPC isn't bumped to a group limit of 4, I don't see it stepping on the toes of the PPC. It's DPS-oriented. The hard damage cut-off under 90 also gives you some reason to take the bigger ones.


PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 9
Cooldown: 4
Range: 540/1080 (damage fall-off under 90)
Velocity: 1400 m/s
GH: 3

I'm not actually keen on the GH group for this one being 3, but I'm willing to try. It just seems unnecessary to me, though. I'm going to use two PPCs on many 'Mechs because of weight and and cycle time. My BJ-3, again, is meh with HPPC but is great with PPC. Trying to save a ton by using one LPPC in combo with an HPPC just frustrates with the cool-down desync even now, which is why I don't do it anymore. I even run an HPPC with a PPC on my SHD because it's got a stronger punch than just 20 but a better heat curve than 30.

I just think 30 should be the domain of the HPPC and SN-PPC, the latter because short-range punches are the most powerful punches in the game and it has to roll with them.

HPPC
Damage: 15
Heat: 13
Cooldown: 5
Range: 540/1080 (damage fall-off under 90)
Velocity: 1400 m/s
GH: 2

SN-PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 8
Cooldown: 3.5
Range: 300/700 (note: it is currently 270/630 in-game; it's one of those special guns with a max more than double its optimum)
Velocity: 1200 m/s
GH: 3

Self-explanatory, really. Slightly more range than current because they feel great when you have quirks enough to get them to ~335 at the moment but blegh otherwise, and colder so that it can better sustain within its bracket. Not cold or fast enough to supplant the Large Pulse as DPS, though, this is more niche.

ER-PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 12.5
Cooldown: 4.5
Range: 810/1620
Velocity: 1900 m/s
GH: 2

Doesn't really need any explaining. Extra cool-down to give more incentive to use it at long range and bring PPC/HPPC for more mid-range work, though I don't know that we need that incentive. Precautionary measure.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 June 2018 - 04:19 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

This is why you should just leave it at 3, it neatly solves the problem for you. By raising it to 4, you've created your own conundrum. Having a 2.5 second cooldown alone makes LPPC more desirable for DPS-oriented builds even with only 3x because 3x LPPC is 6 DPS and 15 heat per volley while 2x PPC is 5 DPS and and 18 heat per volley. What more do I need here?

(with Old Values)
4 LPPC at 8 DPS, 20 heat/volley, 8 HPS.
2 PPC at 5 DPS, 18 heat/volley, 4.5 HPS.
3 PPC at 7.5 DPS, at 27 heat.volley, at 6.75 HPS.
2 HPPC at 6 DPS, at 26 heat/volley, at 5.2 HPS.

Again, It's balanced on the GH limits, likewise there also a lot more factors at play here.

I mean look at 4x LPPC vs 2x PPC. Sure 4x LPPC despite being only 12 tons, it's way hotter than PPC that not that extra 2 DHS (which is +3 Heat Cap and + 0.30 Dissipation -- end HPS of 7.7) won't simply negate, and eats up more slots.

Uziel with XL280, with 2x PPC and 18 DHS, it has 4.5 HPS with 3.2 dissipation, and 62 Capacity, it will overheat at 47.6923s, doing 238.4615.

Similarly the Uziel with XL300, 4x LPPC at 18 DHS, it has 8 HPS with 3.2 dissipation, and 62 capacity, and will overheat in 12.9167s, doing 103.3336 damage.

That is a big change in heat efficiency, though the larger engine is a bit of a plus. I suppose people would go for 4x LPPC if they had the capacity to handle the heat, but people would go for 2x PPC to be more heat-efficient that would better work with other weapons or work on it's own -- to put that into perspective, just 10 DHS or at base 2 dissipation (net 2.5 heat build-up) and 50 Heat capacity, the 2x PPC would still have 20s before overheating.

That's always been the trend -- go bigger to be more heat-efficient, mass small ones to sacrifice heat-efficiency.

12-tons is a lot less than 14-tons in terms of limited tonnage, but to handle the new DPS-Centric LPPC would mean that to be effective would allot more DHS. Even if builds could go with it, forgoing the heat-capacity, in the end they'll be doing at lot more hiding to cool-down, than shooting.

Options man, play as you like. I suppose you are right, 3x LPPC is enough with 2x UAC5 for the warhammer, sure, i concede. But I don't really see any harm if it was possible to 4x LPPC either.

Also the new model has the 3 PPC and 2 HPPC at equal Heat/volley, but the PPCs simply pay 1 more ton for better cooldown and slightly faster velocity. I think that's an OK trade.

4 LPPC at 8 DPS, 20 heat/volley, 8 HPS.
2 PPC at 5 DPS, 18 heat/volley, 5 HPS.
3 PPC at 7.5 DPS, at 27 heat.volley, at 6.75 HPS.
2 HPPC at 6 DPS, at 27 heat/volley, at 5.4 HPS.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

Adding heat is really not the answer, because there is no point in having a DPS weapon if it's too hot to feasibly DPS with.

I know, that's why i left it as is.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

Too hot with a D/H ratio of 1 and UACs being as hot as they currently are, as you only realistically have 12 DHS running an LFE280; I don't consider going XL to fit more worth the trade, not when 3 LPPC would already be more DPS than the old UAC+PPC build for the cost of 5 alpha.

Once again, creating your own monster by trying to make 4 work.

Honestly, this seems to be your personal problem than mine. I'm okay with it relatively hot, and even if 4 GH limit, you don't have to fit all 4 every time.

I also prefer 14 DHS (and XL300)

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

4.5 cooldown would be abysmal. The SN-PPC operates in a bracket where it has to face off against weapons with much, much faster cycle times. It can't afford to shoot so little, this basically encodes the slower rate of fire the current level of heat compels and that is bad. Really, it ought to be faster than a standard PPC, which has range to allow it time to work.

Yeah sure, but considering that IS ML at 0.9 Laser Duration + 3.5s of CD and IS ER-ML Laser at 0.9s Laser Duration + 4.0s CD, even lowering it is a bad idea.

I suppose that my own suggestion is self serving, but come on.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

I wasn't a fan of what you did to the velocities (1000 m/s LPPC pls no), and still ain't. One of the virtues of the current arrangement is that I don't have to re-train myself to use each PPC, save the ERPPC. I am actually a better shot with PPC than I am with ERPPC despite the ER having dramatically superior travel time simply because of practice. IMHO, just bump all except the ER and Snub to 1400 m/s and let heat, damage, range, and cool-down do the rest.

I had this changed now, LPPC now has 1400 Speed, PPC has 1300 Speed, while HPPC is retained at 1200. This is to disturb the convergence between PPC weapons so they just wouldn't mix with one another, and to give them a completely different feel.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

I'm torn on the Snub being lowered to 950. On the one hand, that makes it sync better with AC/20s and SRMs. On the other hand, it makes more off-beat (but still potent) builds like the pop-tart Arrow less effective because they'll have to hover a little more to calculate deflection.

Again, that is to disturb the convergence between PPC, and also to make it still relegated to closer range while increasing the maximum range. And honestly, the single-mech argument is not exactly that good, as in we can always put quirks for that -- and why would 1 mech be worthy to stand in the way of development? I mean look at the UAC10 pre Kodiak and post kodiak, what the ****? I mean 1 over performing mech, means the UAC10s are nerfed for the rest of the clans?

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

I also rather prefer this arrangement:

I honestly don't -- at least most.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

LPPC
Damage: 5
Heat: 4.5
Cooldown: 2.5
Range: 540/1080 (hard limit under 90)
Velocity: 1400 m/s
GH: 3

So long as the LPPC isn't bumped to a group limit of 4, I don't see it stepping on the toes of the PPC. It's DPS-oriented. The hard damage cut-off under 90 also gives you some reason to take the bigger ones.

Eh, don't like it. The GH isn't at 4. Also the damage fall off.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 9
Cooldown: 4
Range: 540/1080 (damage fall-off under 90)
Velocity: 1400 m/s
GH: 3

I'm not actually keen on the GH group for this one being 3, but I'm willing to try. It just seems unnecessary to me, though. I'm going to use two PPCs on many 'Mechs because of weight and and cycle time. My BJ-3, again, is meh with HPPC but is great with PPC. Trying to save a ton by using one LPPC in combo with an HPPC just frustrates with the cool-down desync even now, which is why I don't do it anymore. I even run an HPPC with a PPC on my SHD because it's got a stronger punch than just 20 but a better heat curve than 30.

I just think 30 should be the domain of the HPPC and SN-PPC, the latter because short-range punches are the most powerful punches in the game and it has to roll with them.

And that's the problem, you don't see the increase in GH limit to be an important thing. Your main argument versus 4 LPPC is because 2 PPC because you use most of your mechs at 2 PPC.

I know that my suggestion is self-serving, but it really seems to me that you just don't want your builds getting left behind, that you just wouldn't want to adjust away from the 2 PPC, that your favorite mech incapable of doing 4x PPC like the Arrow would mean that it would be left behind. You just want the changes to cater your own mindset in building, instead of having the IS opened up for a bit more possibilities, to remake the Meta.

Again, we're trying to put the PPC to be competitive with the HPPC at what it does, because the HPPC treads at what the PPC does.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

SN-PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 8
Cooldown: 3.5
Range: 300/700 (note: it is currently 270/630 in-game; it's one of those special guns with a max more than double its optimum)
Velocity: 1200 m/s
GH: 3

Self-explanatory, really. Slightly more range than current because they feel great when you have quirks enough to get them to ~335 at the moment but blegh otherwise, and colder so that it can better sustain within its bracket. Not cold or fast enough to supplant the Large Pulse as DPS, though, this is more niche.

Well, okay. But should be at 950 m/s or worse. This disturbs the convergence, and also gives the instantaneous hit to LPL. Also versus Medium Lasers, they're already at 3.5 + 0.9 and 4.0 + 0.9, even the LPL is at 0.67 + 3.00s for 10 damage at 7 tons, so going lower at 3.5s is a complete mis-step.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

ER-PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 12.5
Cooldown: 4.5
Range: 810/1620
Velocity: 1900 m/s
GH: 2

Doesn't really need any explaining. Extra cool-down to give more incentive to use it at long range and bring PPC/HPPC for more mid-range work, though I don't know that we need that incentive. Precautionary measure.

I don't get it, i still don't see much reason to use it over anything but long-range, in which games are predominantly under, and doing just 20 each time at such range seems to be too weak. Clan could pull it off with 30 per shot. And increasing the cooldown, on an already damage-starved setup seems to be a complete mis-step, it would make sense if the GH is at 3 too, but it's not.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 June 2018 - 07:10 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 21 June 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

4 LPPC at 8 DPS, 20 heat/volley, 8 HPS, vs 3 PPC at 7.5 DPS, at 27 heat.volley, at 6.75 HPS.

Again, It's balanced on the GH limits.

Not really. Your GH limits are preventing it from shining as a DPS weapon because you have to jack the heat up to keep it from trampling the PPC, which you in turn have to keep from trampling the HPPC because you want its own GH to be 3.

Quote

Honestly, this seems to be your personal problem than mine. I'm okay with it relatively hot, and even if 4 GH limit, you don't have to fit all 4 every time.

I also prefer 14 DHS (and XL300)

Not really a personal problem, more of "this is going to be a superior build when the grist hits the mill" deal. You can always run slightly (or completely) off-meta if you want, but that doesn't matter one iota for the balance theory. The XL is simply too big of a risk with a face-time build on the Warhammer on the current field, regardless of how well you can smash potatoes with it. The cooling gain from 2 more DHS is not great enough to offset being dead in three solid bursts from my Warhammer to yours, to say nothing of unpredictable shots from poptarts and harassing Mediums. It wasn't even worth it in MWOWC16, where most of those WHM-6Rs converted to STD 270 flavors by the end.

Quote

Yeah sure, but considering that IS ML at 0.9 Laser Duration + 3.5s of CD and IS ER-ML Laser at 0.9s Laser Duration + 4.0s CD, even lowering it is a bad idea.

I suppose that my own suggestion is self serving, but come on.

Can you use MedLas for snap-firing? Do MedLas command 6 tons for a piddly 10 damage? No?

Self-serving or otherwise, the comparison is regardless without merit; completely different role.

Quote

I had this changed now, LPPC now has 1400 Speed, PPC has 1300 Speed, while HPPC is retained at 1200. This is to disturb the convergence between PPC weapons so they just wouldn't mix with one another, and to give them a completely different feel.

1. Conceptually, the only thing this would accomplish is that I don't take PPCs once they drop below "fast enough" to compete with the hit-scan of laser vomit; AKA, if the time required to calculate deflection at the range bracket they are rated for results in face time equal to or greater than the time it takes to make a laser burn, I don't take PPCs.

2. Your specific implementation features only a 100 m/s delta among the three standard-types and is so small as to be meaningless, so why the h*ll are you bothering?

This is just like the LGauss debate: you have a strange obsession with:

1. Believing PPFLD to be stronger than it really is, betraying a lack of understanding what is required to make it strong, and

2. Making minute changes that meet with your preferred optics but which don't contribute anything mechanically compared to a more straight-forward solution.

Quote

Again, that is to disturb the convergence between PPC, and also to make it still relegated to closer range while increasing the maximum range. And honestly, the single-mech argument is not exactly that good, as in we can always put quirks for that -- and why would 1 mech be worthy to stand in the way of development? I mean look at the UAC10 pre Kodiak and post kodiak, what the ****? I mean 1 over performing mech, means the UAC10s are nerfed for the rest of the clans?

It's not a single 'Mech argument; I've talked to no less than three 'Mechs now: BJ-A, BJ-3, and WHM-6R. The BJ-3 and WHM-6R cover every useful build archetype for PPCs including PPC-vomit, PPC-dakka, and just PPC, with or without JJs. The only thing left is to extrapolate bigger. The Arrow is just an off-beat example of a 'Mech that I use and isn't really standing in the way of development as much as serving as a practical example of some negative consequences to your changes. I'm not inclined to lean on quirks to fix diddly squat. That is a losing proposition and you know it.

It also demonstrates the following:

Quote

I honestly don't -- at least most.

You should.

Quote

Eh, don't like it. The GH isn't at 4. Also the damage fall off.

I'm flexible on on the damage fall-off, it was just a bone to throw the PPC that creates less waves than GH=4. Working around GH being 4 is functionally limiting what you can let it do because it's forcing you to contort the entire family of weapons to work with the inherently inferior weight efficiency of the standard PPC. You haven't yet convinced me it's necessary because you haven't shown me a credible role it can perform with that count while also being 5 heat.

Quote

And that's the problem, you don't see the increase in GH limit to be an important thing. Your main argument versus 4 LPPC is because 2 PPC because you use most of your mechs at 2 PPC.

No. I see it as functionally useless because:

1.) To make 3x PPC a worthy candidate over the 2xHPPC, you make the gun OP in pairs and simultaneously invalidate the HPPC and LPPC

2.) If you make it strictly worse than the HPPC, then nobody runs it and having it is serving no purpose except, what, panic alphas?

The way I have it arranged, the following paradigm holds true:

HPPC are the epitome of poke, offering the best damage-to-face-time at the expense of sustained output and, in larger numbers, max DPS.

PPC are the middle ground with solid poke and better sustained output than HPPC, but inferior to DPS to LPPC. In larger numbers, out-paces HPPC for max DPS.

LPPC are the worst for poke, but the best among the three for any DPS build.

SN-PPC and ER PPC are extreme-range versions of the PPC, tailored for close or long brackets; the SN-PPC is going to be more of a counter to MRMs, ATMs, MedLas, ERSL, and MG boats. On the flip-side, the ER PPC is a counter to ERLL and UAC/2 boats. Neither of them is flexible enough to be as broadly useful as the PPC, which is as it should be.

Quote

I know that my suggestion is self-serving, but it really seems to me that you just don't want your builds getting left behind, that you just wouldn't want to adjust away from the 2 PPC, that your favorite mech incapable of doing 4x PPC like the Arrow would mean that it would be left behind. You just want the changes to cater your own mindset in building, instead of having the IS opened up for a bit more possibilities, to remake the Meta.

My builds are not going to get left behind, they will simply adapt.

What I'm really telling you is how I'm basically not going to use certain weapons under your system because your numbers don't give me a compelling reason to choose them over alternatives. You have PPC back to running so hot that it's superior to choose four LPPC unless I'm hard-point starved. You have SN-PPC travelling so slow that the time required to calculate deflection means I should just take the Large Pulse instead.

Quote

Again, we're trying to put the PPC to be competitive with the HPPC at what it does, because the HPPC treads at what the PPC does.

Only because you are refusing to acknowledge weight limitations give the PPC a reason to be taken when trying to accomplish a viable balance between damage and heat for a given 'Mech. I've told Khobai in the past that "light weight isn't a niche" with regard to the LPPC when he says it shouldn't be DPS, and that's because there is a lower limit to useful damage output. When it comes to Mediums choosing between PPC and HPPC, we haven't hit that limit.

Quote

Well, okay. But should be at 950 m/s or worse. This disturbs the convergence, and also gives the instantaneous hit to LPL. Also versus Medium Lasers, they're already at 3.5 + 0.9 and 4.0 + 0.9. Sure i don't mind the buff, but I'm afraid that this is a damn mis-step.

Disturbs the convergence only with other PPCs, which you aren't really going to run with SN-PPC. AC/10 is more or less the same. You've actually improved convergence with AC/20s and SRMs, which you might run with the SN-PPC. AC/5s were never a good match. So...what was the functional goal, here?

Most egregiously, slowing it to 950 also makes the extra range pointless; they feel great right now at 335 because of the current velocity, nuking the latter just makes me go to LPL instead because the deflection calculation takes about as long as a skilled-up LPL burn. The risk-reward isn't there, simply being PPFLD alone doesn't make it worthwhile as evidenced by the existence of this very thread.

Quote

I don't get it, i still don't see much reason to use it over anything but long-range, in which games are predominantly under, and doing just 20 each time at such range seems to be too weak. Clan could pull it off with 30 per shot. And increasing the cooldown, on an already damage-starved setup seems to be a complete mis-step.

That's the point. It's a long-range gun, why should you choose it for anything other than long range? Get Boreal, Alpine, Polar, Tourmaline, Grim? Hell, even Canyon Network? Perfect, you have plenty of range to capitalize on the reach of ER PPC. If you choose not to use it, that's not at all the weapon's fault unless you think it needs more velocity; that's all on you. If you make it more flexible, then I choose it over the standard PPC because damage fall-off under 90 is only slightly less bad than zero damage at all under 90 and 1900 m/s >>>>> 1400 m/s. I can pitch the Small lasers on my Medium pop-tarts and go all-in on ER PPCs.

Increasing the cool-down, as I said, is just precautionary. I don't know how spammy it will be at 12.5 heat, but from experience I suspect most people will convert their dual PPC to dual ERPPC just to not have to bring back-up weapons because it's considerably more tolerable to do so. It's what I would do. The cool-down is there to, again, give the standard PPC a leg up, but I don't feel strongly about it because I think there is less chance of the PPC being trampled than you do. Note, this is also why I left the GH at 3 for the PPC despite my protestations.

As for GH3, let's say I leave it at 4 seconds, which I'm fine with. The Clan version is throwing 5+20+5 at you at a lower rate of fire, 2 DPS to one spot vs. 2.5 IS. With the new heat, 12.5, I can take a SHD-2K with 17 DHS and have a heat efficiency of 48.8% when firing at maximum rate (dissipation/generation). The Clan analogue, an HBK-IIC which has a TCII or III in it to better match velocity at-range along with 19-20 DHS, has a heat efficiency of 57.8%...due entirely because it is compelled to fire slower. At the same 4 seconds, its efficiency would only be 43.2%. All that to say, the two guns are not that far apart as some make them out to be. Maybe 12.5 heat is all it needs, maybe just a tiny bit less from there will finish closing the gap, but it's not a huge gap. Hell, maybe another 200-300 m/s velocity instead of less hit will do it, too, increasing the rapidity which IS can peak, acquire, resolve, fire, and return. But allowing them to do 7.5 DPS in a poke at 810 meters? Splash is useful, but not that useful. Hot or not, I don't think that's quite fair, especially if you have multiple 'Mechs cycling around doing the same thing; that's less heat than 5x ERLL produce and the concentrated damage is probably better. Let's throw those 3x ERPPC onto Battlemasters and watch the salt come streaming in when the Assault 'Mech with the already best energy mounts in the game no longer even has to stare long enough to get a burn off.

That's why no GH3 on the ERPPC.

[IllCaesar]

The6thMessenger, on 21 June 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

Well, sure the range is okay. But still it needs heat buff if it were to be relevant to it's supposedly close-range role.

Oh I'm not arguing with that. I use them on multiple mechs myself and PPC heat gen quirks are basically mandatory. I think that aiming to increase their range just increases the redundancy among PPCs that you're aiming to reduce. ERPPCs and SNPPCs both have what should be their niche right in their names. The other changes I'm largely in favour of, though I feel if you're going to buff PPCs and HPPCs in that way that HPPCs should do better with 90m than PPCs.

[stealthraccoon]

Seems like a bit extreme changes - were not trying to make ballistics inferior, y’all.
Velocity is fine as-is; LPPC, SNPPC, PPC and HPPC going the same speed is appropriate (1100 or 1200, whatever it is now).
SNPPC and PPC should be same heat and cooldown - SNPPC should also bump up the optimum range, but leave maximum range.
LPPC cooldown to 3.0 might be a bit much, but GH needs to stay at 3; heat should be just a tad warmer than PPC (heat-per-damage wise).

Edited by stealthraccoon, 21 June 2018 - 10:52 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Not really. Your GH limits are preventing it from shining as a DPS weapon because you have to jack the heat up to keep it from trampling the PPC, which you in turn have to keep from trampling the HPPC because you want its own GH to be 3.

Of course it's going to be hot, you're shooting every 2.5s, shouldn't that be a given? No, it will still shine as a DPS weapon, people would still go after the LPPC for superior dps and face-time, sure as hell the 4x LPPC doesn't have the alpha of 2x HPPC or 3x PPC.

And no, they do not have to go for 4x LPPC every time.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Not really a personal problem, more of "this is going to be a superior build when the grist hits the mill" deal. You can always run slightly (or completely) off-meta if you want, but that doesn't matter one iota for the balance theory.

Is it your theory? And you know, so what if it's going to be superior in one aspect? So what if a 4x LPPC would be theoretically better against 2x PPC? As i have pointed out already, the two have different strengths and weaknesses, that LPPC is hot -- and so what if it's hot? Just as GH, it's supposed to be a deterent in the first place.

And yeah, as you have demonstrated, it's mostly your personal problem.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

The XL is simply too big of a risk with a face-time build on the Warhammer on the current field, regardless of how well you can smash potatoes with it. The cooling gain from 2 more DHS is not great enough to offset being dead in three solid bursts from my Warhammer to yours, to say nothing of unpredictable shots from poptarts and harassing Mediums. It wasn't even worth it in MWOWC16, where most of those WHM-6Rs converted to STD 270 flavors by the end.

That is really just a criticism of my build, not the application of the weapon. There are mechs that are capable of running LFE while still using LPPCs. People can still build it differently, and obviously if it's too hot with the max GH limit then it's not going to be meta in the first place. Not because you can, doesn't mean you should.

There is always give and take in builds, and if the build takes too much, i.e. LPPC then i doubt that it would be good.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Can you use MedLas for snap-firing? Do MedLas command 6 tons for a piddly 10 damage? No?

For 6 medium lasers though, you do 30 damage, you also don't have to provide any lead.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Self-serving or otherwise, the comparison is regardless without merit; completely different role.

Okay, fine.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

1. Conceptually, the only thing this would accomplish is that I don't take PPCs once they drop below "fast enough" to compete with the hit-scan of laser vomit; AKA, if the time required to calculate deflection at the range bracket they are rated for results in face time equal to or greater than the time it takes to make a laser burn, I don't take PPCs.

That's okay, it's not really made with your complete approval in mind.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

2. Your specific implementation features only a 100 m/s delta among the three standard-types and is so small as to be meaningless, so why the h*ll are you bothering?

Same question, if it's not that important, why are you bothering pointing it out? But then you are pointing it out, then somehow it's important; because it jacks up the weapon convergence, it may not be significant but it does disturb. If you're still wondering what the hell it is for, look no further at your response, it's for people like you that mix and match LPPC-PPC-HPPC.

If it were meaningless and so small like you said, then we wouldn't be having this part of the conversation because it doesn't merit a response.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

This is just like the LGauss debate: you have a strange obsession with:

1. Believing PPFLD to be stronger than it really is, betraying a lack of understanding what is required to make it strong, and

2. Making minute changes that meet with your preferred optics but which don't contribute anything mechanically compared to a more straight-forward solution.

1.) What? is that a personal vendetta? Here's my retort: stop building around the meta, and have the meta adjust to the changes. And it's not about the PPFLD, hell you deal with awful convergence with spread hardpoints, no it's mostly to change the feel of the weapons. I mean after all, 100 m/s is not that important right?

2.) Just because you can't think of other ways or you personally don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't contribute. You're looking at this with reservation to the current meta, leave it behind.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

It's not a single 'Mech argument; I've talked to no less than three 'Mechs now: BJ-A, BJ-3, and WHM-6R. The BJ-3 and WHM-6R cover every useful build archetype for PPCs including PPC-vomit, PPC-dakka, and just PPC, with or without JJs. The only thing left is to extrapolate bigger. The Arrow is just an off-beat example of a 'Mech that I use and isn't really standing in the way of development as much as serving as a practical example of some negative consequences to your changes. I'm not inclined to lean on quirks to fix diddly squat. That is a losing proposition and you know it.

Quirks can be good depending on how they are applied. The problem is that they're being used inappropriately, they are not supposed to fix the weapon, they are supposed to fix the mech, addressing bad hitboxes, low hardpoints etc.

I mean what if IS armor quirks and structure quirks were gone? Urbie would be back to a joke, Atlas ain't good for tanking, Annihilator is annihilated etc. etc.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

You should.

Not in it's entirety, i won't.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

I'm flexible on on the damage fall-off, it was just a bone to throw the PPC that creates less waves than GH=4. Working around GH being 4 is functionally limiting what you can let it do because it's forcing you to contort the entire family of weapons to work with the inherently inferior weight efficiency of the standard PPC. You haven't yet convinced me it's necessary because you haven't shown me a credible role it can perform with that count while also being 5 heat.

It does provide better options, I mean how could you ever pick 3x LPPC over 3x PPC or 2x HPPC? It has completely less DPS and alpha. Your argument before always was about 2x PPC over 3x LPPC, but that's not really the case, it's versus 3x PPC and 2x HPPC.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

1.) To make 3x PPC a worthy candidate over the 2xHPPC, you make the gun OP in pairs and simultaneously invalidate the HPPC and LPPC

That's because you're still thinking of them treading after the role of each other.

The 30 Damage of 3x PPC would have been superior to the 30 damage 2x HPPC because of shorter cooldown sure, but in the feature of build flexibility -- using less hardpoints, being lighter, smaller, and heat efficient, and the longer cooldown, the 2x HPPC caters on those who doesn't have the weight, or the builds that could not afford the face-time.

And it's funny how it could be "OP in pairs" When the point was you use it in threes. Okay giving you the benefit of the doubt, can i assume you mean pair of 3x PPCs or rather 6x PPCs? But isn't that kinda overkill?

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

2.) If you make it strictly worse than the HPPC, then nobody runs it and having it is serving no purpose except, what, panic alphas?

Or you know, fire support, faster fire means you deal faster damage at a range that you can better provide damage, pressure enemy. And in my current configuration, 3x PPCs is basically 2x HPPC with equal heat/volley, with faster velocity, -1s less cooldown for just 1 ton more.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

The way I have it arranged, the following paradigm holds true:

Spoiler

HPPC are the epitome of poke, offering the best damage-to-face-time at the expense of sustained output and, in larger numbers, max DPS.

PPC are the middle ground with solid poke and better sustained output than HPPC, but inferior to DPS to LPPC. In larger numbers, out-paces HPPC for max DPS.

LPPC are the worst for poke, but the best among the three for any DPS build.

SN-PPC and ER PPC are extreme-range versions of the PPC, tailored for close or long brackets; the SN-PPC is going to be more of a counter to MRMs, ATMs, MedLas, ERSL, and MG boats. On the flip-side, the ER PPC is a counter to ERLL and UAC/2 boats. Neither of them is flexible enough to be as broadly useful as the PPC, which is as it should be.

So does in mine as i tailored them, just as you did with yours.

But then with the LPPCs, how could they compete with the HPPS and LPPCs in the first place? I suppose they are supposed to compete with LPPCs within the same range of tonnage alloted, but on it's own unlike 3x PPC or 2x HPPC, the 3x LPPC is just still too lame. With only 20 damage/volley max for ERPPC, and you increased it's cooldown, the UAC2 and ERLL boats are still out DPSing the 2x ERPPC that is supposedly countering it.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

My builds are not going to get left behind, they will simply adapt.

So you know, adapt, instead of complaining. Because with the 2x PPC vs 4x LPPC, that's all you did.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

What I'm really telling you is how I'm basically not going to use certain weapons under your system because your numbers don't give me a compelling reason to choose them over alternatives.

Then don't. People have preferences.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

You have PPC back to running so hot that it's superior to choose four LPPC unless I'm hard-point starved.

Then use four LPPCs. People can use 3x PPC at their own tactical decision.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

You have SN-PPC travelling so slow that the time required to calculate deflection means I should just take the Large Pulse instead.

Then go use it. The point of lasers is that they are point-click, the LPL is DPS poke at medium range. The point of SNPPC is close range, it's not supposed to compete with LPL.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Only because you are refusing to acknowledge weight limitations give the PPC a reason to be taken when trying to accomplish a viable balance between damage and heat for a given 'Mech. I've told Khobai in the past that "light weight isn't a niche" with regard to the LPPC when he says it shouldn't be DPS, and that's because there is a lower limit to useful damage output. When it comes to Mediums choosing between PPC and HPPC, we haven't hit that limit.

Yes, and because weight is available at the higher limit, the HPPCs are the go to over the PPC precisely because of higher alpha for the same pair. I suppose that the weight of the PPC is it's strength over the HPPC, but when tonnage is available, it's not. And it's not like people can just build around the weight of HPPC.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Disturbs the convergence only with other PPCs, which you aren't really going to run with SN-PPC. AC/10 is more or less the same. You've actually improved convergence with AC/20s and SRMs, which you might run with the SN-PPC. AC/5s were never a good match. So...what was the functional goal, here?

As i have said over multiple post, is to disturb convergence between PPCs, it's not that hard to understand.

If they converge a lot better with other weapon types, such as AC10, so what? It works better with AC20 and SRMs -- at the close range niche it's supposed to fill, so what?? Wouldn't it be nice that it plays better with other weapons at their band of range? Don't you think i want the AC20 to pair better with SNPPCs?

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Most egregiously, slowing it to 950 also makes the extra range pointless; they feel great right now at 335 because of the current velocity, nuking the latter just makes me go to LPL instead because the deflection calculation takes about as long as a skilled-up LPL burn. The risk-reward isn't there, simply being PPFLD alone doesn't make it worthwhile as evidenced by the existence of this very thread.

Yes, exactly. The extra range is supposed to be pointless, just as the extra range of the LBXs are pointless, it's supposed to be close range weapon. It's only there so that long-range isn't as debilitating as it was before, that if you can properly lead you could at least solve the close-range issue, that people with snubs aren't totally helpless at a range when it's all they have, and being a PPC they still have to invest a lot of DHS with it.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

That's the point. It's a long-range gun, why should you choose it for anything other than long range? Get Boreal, Alpine, Polar, Tourmaline, Grim? Hell, even Canyon Network? Perfect, you have plenty of range to capitalize on the reach of ER PPC. If you choose not to use it, that's not at all the weapon's fault unless you think it needs more velocity; that's all on you. If you make it more flexible, then I choose it over the standard PPC because damage fall-off under 90 is only slightly less bad than zero damage at all under 90 and 1900 m/s >>>>> 1400 m/s. I can pitch the Small lasers on my Medium pop-tarts and go all-in on ER PPCs.

Sure, but then considering that there's a tendency of people to get close, that there are other people voting, the ranges it works best doesn't really work that better. You ought to go with PPCs in most cases.

And again the counter against ERLL and UAC2 boats part -- they're going to out DPS the 2x ERPPC guy, and now it has worse DPS.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Increasing the cool-down, as I said, is just precautionary. I don't know how spammy it will be at 12.5 heat, but from experience I suspect most people will convert their dual PPC to dual ERPPC just to not have to bring back-up weapons because it's considerably more tolerable to do so. It's what I would do. The cool-down is there to, again, give the standard PPC a leg up, but I don't feel strongly about it because I think there is less chance of the PPC being trampled than you do. Note, this is also why I left the GH at 3 for the PPC despite my protestations.

Even to give you benefit of the doubt of "Balance Theory", people have preferences in their own playstyle that they choose to shoulder the disadvantages. Some prefer the DPS that would make them stay at PPCs because of better sustain, I personally like brawls, there are people that like trolling using lights (looking at you MWO80-something and your 2x SRM6 Commando), it's unreasonable for you to assume that people will invariably do what you will do with the given set of numbers.

But if you really don't want it to be that spammy and have your CD nerf, then put the dang GH limit at 3 too for the ERPPC. You're already lessening the dps of an already low DPS weapon, and it won't counter **** like you wanted, ERLL and UAC2 boats will out DPS it. Sure you don't have to fire every time, but a lot of breathing room between targets means you can.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

As for GH3, let's say I leave it at 4 seconds, which I'm fine with. The Clan version is throwing 5+20+5 at you at a lower rate of fire, 2 DPS to one spot vs. 2.5 IS. With the new heat, 12.5, I can take a SHD-2K with 17 DHS and have a heat efficiency of 48.8% when firing at maximum rate (dissipation/generation). The Clan analogue, an HBK-IIC which has a TCII or III in it to better match velocity at-range along with 19-20 DHS, has a heat efficiency of 57.8%...due entirely because it is compelled to fire slower. At the same 4 seconds, its efficiency would only be 43.2%. All that to say, the two guns are not that far apart as some make them out to be. Maybe 12.5 heat is all it needs, maybe just a tiny bit less from there will finish closing the gap, but it's not a huge gap. Hell, maybe another 200-300 m/s velocity instead of less hit will do it, too, increasing the rapidity which IS can peak, acquire, resolve, fire, and return. But allowing them to do 7.5 DPS in a poke at 810 meters? Splash is useful, but not that useful. Hot or not, I don't think that's quite fair, especially if you have multiple 'Mechs cycling around doing the same thing; that's less heat than 5x ERLL produce and the concentrated damage is probably better. Let's throw those 3x ERPPC onto Battlemasters and watch the salt come streaming in when the Assault 'Mech with the already best energy mounts in the game no longer even has to stare long enough to get a burn off.

That's why no GH3 on the ERPPC.

You already increased CD to 4.5, it's already less spammable. What you're saying would make sense if it were 7.5 DPS, but with 10 damage and 4.5 CD we're looking at only 6.6667 DPS here out of 3x ERPPC. Versus 5x ERLL of 10 DPS, or 8 DPS of 4x ERLLs. Sure, beaming 2.2s might be too long, but all the same the ERLL would be better suited for constant poking. After all, PPFLD isn't that powerful right?

Tell you what, i'll meet you half-way, to compromise. But if you're still uptight about this, that's on you, I am actually putting the damn effort.

Spoiler

LPPC
Damage: 5
Heat: 4.5
Cooldown: 2.5
Range: 540/1080 (damage fall-off under 90)
Velocity: 1200 m/s
GH: 3
Heat Penalty: 2.5 (from 7)

The increase in velocity is unnecessary. Tell you what, we'll keep the GH limit at 3, but we'll reduce the Heat Penalty when firing more than 3 LPPC. That means the LPPC won't accrue 10.5 extra heat with 4 LPPCS at 5 heat. With the adjusted values it would only accrue only 3.375 heat -- or total of 21.375 Heat (which is a whole another 0.35x LPPC) , vs 18 of 2x PPC. (I honestly don't understand how PGI calculates heat penalty, but with a drop of around 65% I assume that the other excesses would also drop at the same percentage.)

As "pretty" as going 6+ LPPCs cause it's a lot less penalizing (current 6 LPPC is at 77.25 with 7 heat penalty and 5 heat, accruing extra 47.25 heat. New setup should produce only extra 15.1875 heat, at a total of 42.1875). Understand that its still going to be way hotter than standard PPCs to achieve the same alpha (42.1875 > 27 > 26), losing on sustained DPS in the process, and needing so many more slots and hardpoints that otherwise cater on other weapons.

PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 9
Cooldown: 4
Range: 540/1080 (damage fall-off under 90)
Velocity: 1200 m/s
GH: 3

The heat-reduction is already nice, but the increase in GH Limit already solves the problem with the PPC/HPPC dichotomy, the velocity increase is not needed. If you want the PPC velocity to be increased, then remove the quirks of mechs with PPC velocity.

HPPC
Damage: 15
Heat: 13
Cooldown: 5
Range: 540/1080 (damage fall-off under 90)
Velocity: 1200 m/s
GH: 2

I really don't think the velocity buff is necessary, HPPC is already our gold-standard, the better heat is already being too generous.

SN-PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 8
Cooldown: 3.75s
Range: 270/810
Velocity: 1200 m/s
GH: 3


It has to be competitive with other short-ranged weapons, but not tread on the LPL -- it sure sounds like you want to discard LPL in favor of SNPPC. The new configuration would leave the SNPPC still below at LPL, but better than where it was before. It has faster ROF than ER Meds (4.00 + 0.9) or MLs (3.5 + 0.9).

ER-PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 12.5
Cooldown: 4.5
Range: 810/1620
Velocity: 2100 m/s
GH: 3

IS PPC is very heavy compared to Clan, so i believe they deserve the better performance, if they would endure the heavy weight. That being said, being balanced to such would meant that something has to give, and it's the cooldown. The +200 speed should be a better touch for long-range.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 22 June 2018 - 11:35 AM.

[Elizander]

Ok guys your quoting is getting ridiculously long now

[NimoStar]

The Yeonne posts are awful and spoilsport as usual, they don't realiza the damage of ISERPPCs are lackluster for the weight and heat, that long -range with such a gun that hits geograhy and is a projectile is a roulette, etc.

In fact, you have the ER large laser with just as much damage, DPS, insanely better damage to heat ratio, hits instantly at any range and doesn't hit micro elevations in the path... and they are 2 tons less and 1 less crit.

Basically, don't be an undercover apologist for PGI's bad decisions.

If PPCs were regularly good they woudn't need so many 'mechs with massive quirks just for them necessary to only be barely viable. You don't see any "Missile speed +30%" mech, do you? But there are multiple PPCs one. And they are still barely used too.

Edited by NimoStar, 22 June 2018 - 08:18 AM.

[VonBruinwald]

Two ways I can see to improve the snub, taking Sarna as a basis:

Quote

The Snub-Nose PPC is to a Particle Projector Cannon as a sawed-off shotgun is to a shotgun.

Give the Snub 10+2.5+2.5 damage like the clan ER?

Alternatively...

Quote

An interesting side benefit is the dramatically increased short range, longer than almost any other weapon.

420m optimal range instead of the paltry 270m we currently get.

Is it too much to ask for both?

Edited by VonBruinwald, 22 June 2018 - 12:16 PM.