25 replies to this topic

[Reith Dynamis]

I got into this game again cause I was itching for some mech combat since it looks like Titanfall 2's community is getting worse.

I luv alot of the combat outside of what clearly PGI doesn't understand on how the mechs should or shouldn't work or the insanity of ghost heat making Nova Cat/SuperNova's energy stock variants completely illogical to ever use. Like I get we're afraid of energy boats or missile boats but ghost heat doesn't actually make boats disappear, it makes people use higher tonnage assault mechs and now there is no middle ground. We're in matches with most tonnages are lights or assaults. You can't use a 4 er large nova cat with laser firing in pairs with out the mech not being very viable, and that's not even the Nova Cat Prime.

How is it we don't actually use the arm and hand actuators to lift given arms to shoot over hills? If you're going to shoot from cover like a smart lad your going to ignore more then 70% of the mechs out in game for mechs that have high mounts. How after MW4 there is no forethought to this?

And god forbid if i get tired of my MadCat mk2 twin UAC10 and twin UAC5 build. Like sweet jesus if I maybe want to bring out my Mad Dog with twin lrm 15 and 4x med pulse lasers it's going to be tough **** cause the map is almost always HPG moon station or Solaris City. Had. I. Known. I. Wouldn't. Pick. It. Ever.

And that's my biggest gripe of the game. The way the MWO makes choices for maps and missions like escorts... Like do you hate your players? It's archaic. Why cant we have private servers that randomly select maps or makes it so a player like me don't play hpg space station and solaris city back-to-back for nearly an hour. Why is it we don't have a lobby where we can see a map and choose a mech that plays it's strengths?

Like dear god I tried reading the MWO reddit and I just cringe. But when I pick a night where I just want to try different mechs to re-evaluate a build due to patch changes I'm stuck with a long range map in my 6 SRM6 Huntsmen, or I'm in my NovaCat on the desert maps, or I'm in a city with my LRM Mad Dog. I totally get where alot of the hate for this game comes from.

You have a community desperately trying to luv MechWarrior, then you have a developer that hates both battletech and its players.

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 21 June 2018 - 06:30 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Now that’s just being salty...
And you totally are ignoring...
But then again...

Sigh,

Ok, you win.
As much as I hate to admit it, your “rant”, is pretty much just a series of objective observations of the game.
It’s PGI’s game, and its the only FPS Mechwarrior game in town. It is what it is. It will likely never be anything more.

[Cloves]

Ask for random maps, or get used to map voting. Folks don't like being LRMed, so they usually vote away those maps, and if they show up, expect to see four LRM boats and assorted long range snipers across both teams. You can LRM on every map, it just takes a ton of map awareness and practice, even then it will often be far less effective. A well built Clan Laser boat actually prefers a hot map because of the heatsinks it boats, it will suffer less than the other mechs in that environment. And Toumaline dessert is a very open map, if you cannot do well there, it's just a bad build. Sounds like you just need to work on your mechlab skills, very few mechs are competitive stock.

[FupDup]

Reith Dynamis, on 21 June 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

I luv alot of the combat outside of what clearly PGI doesn't understand on how the mechs should or shouldn't work or the insanity of ghost heat making Nova Cat/SuperNova's energy stock variants completely illogical to ever use. Like I get we're afraid of energy boats or missile boats but ghost heat doesn't actually make boats disappear, it makes people use higher tonnage assault mechs and now there is no middle ground. We're in matches with most tonnages are lights or assaults. You can't use a 4 er large nova cat with laser firing in pairs with out the mech not being very viable, and that's not even the Nova Cat Prime.

Ghost Heat has its issues, but to be fair builds like the stock Nova Prime are extremely impractical even without Ghost Heat. It's got too many guns and too few heatsinks. Same goes for Supernova 1, Nova Cat Prime, etc.

[A Headless Chicken]

Facts disguised as a rant, you're a genius.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Bud Crue, on 21 June 2018 - 06:36 PM, said:

It’s PGI’s game,

Yes it is, And woe to any who dare complain. More blood asp tears anyone?

[Reith Dynamis]

Cloves, on 21 June 2018 - 06:37 PM, said:

Ask for random maps, or get used to map voting. Folks don't like being LRMed, so they usually vote away those maps, and if they show up, expect to see four LRM boats and assorted long range snipers across both teams. You can LRM on every map, it just takes a ton of map awareness and practice, even then it will often be far less effective. A well built Clan Laser boat actually prefers a hot map because of the heatsinks it boats, it will suffer less than the other mechs in that environment. And Toumaline dessert is a very open map, if you cannot do well there, it's just a bad build. Sounds like you just need to work on your mechlab skills, very few mechs are competitive stock.

Cloves your're right, and I'm just ranting. I just had the back to back space station and solaris city for a very long time. I can choose a map as much as anyone but if its always those two maps there is very little one can do other then rant and hope someone may agree..

And it's one of those things where I hardly use a mech with lrms cause it's not viable without boating due to the amount of ways to invalidate lrms/atms anyway. I don't have a problem dodging lrms even as a brawler cause im patient, I use cover, and I think about the best angles to strike from and get out. LRMS are easily the most simplest system to negate. I'm surprised they don't simply remove them from the game since the community hates indriect fire weapons which is weird cause lrms indirect fire has been a battle tech lore thing for decades. Hell lrm 5s and 10s were viable in some fashion before. Not in this game however. One could say that those lower tiers lrms are meant for armor, copters and other things but whatever.

I mean you can tell me to work on my mechlab skills but I actually need to test every build on a variety of maps, not just two. And we're not even addressing the mech choices for alot of maps are not viable due to the lower hard points will make you totally exposed cause one can't raise an arm.

Can anyone tell me why the quote system is so tempermental to use here?

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 21 June 2018 - 07:05 PM.

[Spheroid]

Nothing wrong with quad large.

[Cloves]

Reith Dynamis, on 21 June 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

Cloves your're right, and I'm just ranting. I just had the back to back space station and solaris city back to back for a very long time. I can choose a map as much as anyone but if its always theose two maps there is very little one can do other then rant and hope someone may agree..

And it's one of those things where I hardly using a mech with lrms cause it's not vaible without boating due to the amount of ways to invalidate lrms/atms anyway. I don't have a problem dodging lrms even as a brawler cause im patient, I use cover, and I think about the best angles to strike from and get out. LRMS are easily the most simplest system to negate. I'm surprised they don't simple remove them from the game since the community hates indriect fire weapons which is weird cause lrms indirect fire has been a battle tech lore thing for decades. Hell lrms 5 and 10 were viable in some fashion before. Not in this game however. One could say that those lower tiers lrms are meant for armor, copters and other things but whatever.

I mean you can tell me to work on my mechlab skills but I actually need to test every build on a variety of maps, not just two. And we're not even addressing the mech choices for alot of maps are viable due to the lower hard points will make you totally exposed cause one can't raise an arm.

Can anyone tell me why the quote system is so tempermental to use here?

. I think LRMs are still viable, there are a bunch of us that still take them in high tier games, we just have to manage our expectations and the salt of others, then get in close, like 300-400m. The major issue that I know of with the nova cat is that it has it’s firepower in low slung arms and lousy mobility, not it it’s heat management. The solution that comes to mind is to push for the high ground in hpg and the highway system in Solaris. You are also seeing many more brawlers due to the IS event that is going on still. You will hopefully see more long range maps get voted in when that event is over. However both the new maps favor brawling, and are hot, so expect that meta to be more common. LRMs on hpg require a nascar kind of lower edge to outer ring play. LRMs on Solaris need those open channels that run in a ring outside the center or being up on the overpasses fireing into the center. Overall, sound like you need to skill into operations and to work on your short range brawling, which can be done with clan lrm mechs, but not certain will ever be fun with a nova cat.

Edited by Cloves, 21 June 2018 - 07:13 PM.

[Reith Dynamis]

FupDup, on 21 June 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

Ghost Heat has its issues, but to be fair builds like the stock Nova Prime are extremely impractical even without Ghost Heat. It's got too many guns and too few heatsinks. Same goes for Supernova 1, Nova Cat Prime, etc.

I don't know if I agree. From what I know of the nova cat it's designed to vent heat far easier then any other omni-mech atleast in lore. I would think that adding a quirk for mechs specifically designed behind energy builds such as twin ppc's and three er large lasers nova cat that their nova cat scientists wouldn't simply go with the edgy factor.

I guess what I would argue is that all battlemechs and omnimechs should play to their lore roles. have it so energy specific mechs don't retain ghost heat, possible have a higher pool in which the heat level can rise two, or heatsink efficiency would be a major quirk of all nova cat variants.

In the end though I'm just stuck with the Mad Cat mk2 uac playstyle cause it's one size fits all due to how mwo works.

[Cloves]

Reith Dynamis, on 21 June 2018 - 07:12 PM, said:

I don't know if I agree. From what I know of the nova cat it's designed to vent heat far easier then any other omni-mech atleast in lore. I would think that adding a quirk for mechs specifically designed behind energy builds such as twin ppc's and three er large lasers nova cat that their nova cat scientists wouldn't simply go with the edgy factor.

I guess what I would argue is that all battlemechs and omnimechs should play to their lore roles. have it so energy specific mechs don't retain ghost heat, possible have a higher pool in which the heat level can rise two, or heatsink efficiency would be a major quirk of all nova cat variants.

In the end though I'm just stuck with the Mad Cat mk2 uac playstyle cause it's one size fits all due to how mwo works.

If we stick to lore, you cannot fire from cover or fire upon someone that has been fired upon by someone else.

[FupDup]

Reith Dynamis, on 21 June 2018 - 07:12 PM, said:

I don't know if I agree. From what I know of the nova cat it's designed to vent heat far easier then any other omni-mech atleast in lore. I would think that adding a quirk for mechs specifically designed behind energy builds such as twin ppc's and three er large lasers nova cat that their nova cat scientists wouldn't simply go with the edgy factor.

I guess what I would argue is that all battlemechs and omnimechs should play to their lore roles. have it so energy specific mechs don't retain ghost heat, possible have a higher pool in which the heat level can rise two, or heatsink efficiency would be a major quirk of all nova cat variants.

In the end though I'm just stuck with the Mad Cat mk2 uac playstyle cause it's one size fits all due to how mwo works.

In MWO the Nova Cat Prime just needs to remove 1 ERLL and replace it with some more DHS and it's good to go.

In terms of "lore" the NC Prime dissipated 50 heat per turn but generated 66 (if standing still). Definitely a bit over-gunned but not as severe as the little Nova Prime.

Cloves, on 21 June 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

If we stick to lore, you cannot fire from cover or fire upon someone that has been fired upon by someone else.

Zell was dependent on the specific Clan in question as well as the point in time (over time the Clans kind of gave up on it).

Edited by FupDup, 21 June 2018 - 07:18 PM.

[Reith Dynamis]

Cloves, on 21 June 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

If we stick to lore, you cannot fire from cover or fire upon someone that has been fired upon by someone else.

I mean we can totally stop picking and choosing viable ideas to bring into mwo cause you can't raise arms nor can you manually aim in battletech, but if we wanted that we all would be sticking to HBS battletech or play the it the traditional way... but I know and you know that no one is arguing that. Aren't we getting little hyperbolic now?

[Cloves]

Reith Dynamis, on 21 June 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

I mean we can totally stop picking and choosing viable ideas to bring into mwo cause you can't raise arms nor can you manually aim in battletech, but if we wanted that we all would be sticking to HBS battletech or play the it the traditional way... but I know and you know that no one is arguing that. Aren't we getting little hyperbolic now?

I just brought that up because you used lore to justify getting rid of all ghost heat and getting further heat quirks for a mech. Seemed like an apt time to point out how rediculous lore is in designing rules for a pvp game.

FupDup, on 21 June 2018 - 07:18 PM, said:

In MWO the Nova Cat Prime just needs to remove 1 ERLL and replace it with some more DHS and it's good to go.

In terms of "lore" the NC Prime dissipated 50 heat per turn but generated 66 (if standing still). Definitely a bit over-gunned but not as severe as the little Nova Prime.


Zell was dependent on the specific Clan in question as well as the point in time (over time the Clans kind of gave up on it).

Zell was a horrible game balance concept that got dialed back once everyone was using mixed tech.

[FupDup]

Cloves, on 21 June 2018 - 07:27 PM, said:

Zell was a horrible game balance concept that got dialed back once everyone was using mixed tech.

That too, I was just pointing out that even from a fluff standpoint Zell wasn't that great.

[Reith Dynamis]

Cloves, on 21 June 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

I just brought that up because you used lore to justify getting rid of all ghost heat and getting further heat quirks for a mech. Seemed like an apt time to point out how rediculous lore is in designing rules for a pvp game.

Not arguing for every mech should, if anything mechs should be handled on a case by case basis as far as how they should be played or used within a certain parameter. Surely that doesn't sound so far fetched?? Why have so many mechs when even now we stick to the meta builds? how is that helping variety?

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 21 June 2018 - 07:31 PM.

[Cloves]

Reith Dynamis, on 21 June 2018 - 07:30 PM, said:

Not arguing for every mech should, if anything mechs should be handled on a case by case basis as far as how they should be played or used within a certain parameter. Surely that doesn't sound so far fetched?? Why have so many mechs when even now we stick to the meta builds? how is that helping variety?

I am actually for using quirks to balance out mechs, and think PGI really did variety a disservice when they dialed them back. I just think your proposed changes where way out of line with merely making the mech unique. The gyre has a heat neutrality quirk. I could see maybe a er large -10% heat quirk, but not a ignore ghost heat, double heat cap and additional heat quirks on top. That’s way outside the park.

-edit those figures are based on modern quirks and the skill tree. My biggest issue withe the dialback of big quirks is with only small quirks it’s hard to overcome really bad geometry or hard points, like the ones you are facing now in the nova cat, or if you happen to own a black knight...

Edited by Cloves, 21 June 2018 - 08:08 PM.

[Lances107]

Your rant was actually logical up to the LRM 15 part, then you went downhill big time.
I love the Solaris map. Why? It forces people to learn how to use LRMS in a fire support capacity, which is the true purpose of LRMS. Instead of acting like a bunch of rookies shooting off missiles at 800+ meters away from the target and sometimes at 1200 meters away from the target. Best of all it forces people to fight, this in turn, after enough times will force them to think about shielding as well as other aspects of the game.

As for map choice, I would like to see the old frozen city brought back. Alpine completely reworked. It is just more of a mess then it was before. Polar highlands and plexus moved to tier one only. The idea behind these changes is to force players, new players, and those who insist on acting like rookies. To do something bezier, to learn the game.

[Wil McCullough]

Cloves, on 21 June 2018 - 07:11 PM, said:

. I think LRMs are still viable, there are a bunch of us that still take them in high tier games, we just have to manage our expectations and the salt of others, then get in close, like 300-400m. The major issue that I know of with the nova cat is that it has it’s firepower in low slung arms and lousy mobility, not it it’s heat management. The solution that comes to mind is to push for the high ground in hpg and the highway system in Solaris. You are also seeing many more brawlers due to the IS event that is going on still. You will hopefully see more long range maps get voted in when that event is over. However both the new maps favor brawling, and are hot, so expect that meta to be more common. LRMs on hpg require a nascar kind of lower edge to outer ring play. LRMs on Solaris need those open channels that run in a ring outside the center or being up on the overpasses fireing into the center. Overall, sound like you need to skill into operations and to work on your short range brawling, which can be done with clan lrm mechs, but not certain will ever be fun with a nova cat.

I think lurms are a guilty pleasure for many players, myself included. I love the SWOOOOOOOOSH of clan streaming lurms coming out. I also have a 2ppc, 3lmg, 1 lrm5 uziel that i ADORE. IT'S SO UGLY AND SO USELESS. I LOVE IT. i used to play meta assaults to dtivr my wlr and kdr up so i can take out that uzzie without feeling too bad.

My beef is with players who come to the forums saying that lurms are good. Those damn things are seriously subpar.

[Daggett]

Reith Dynamis, on 21 June 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

And that's my biggest gripe of the game. The way the MWO makes choices for maps and missions like escorts... Like do you hate your players? It's archaic. Why cant we have private servers that randomly select maps or makes it so a player like me don't play hpg space station and solaris city back-to-back for nearly an hour. Why is it we don't have a lobby where we can see a map and choose a mech that plays it's strengths?

I agree that current map-picking has it's problems. Yesterday i played 50% of my matches in Solaris City, i'd like more variety.

But sadly your proposals won't work. Private servers are a bad choice in F2P MMOs because they can be manipulated by the players. You will have cheaters everywhere because private servers make it way to easy to cheat. MWO's authenticated server architecture however greatly limits the possibility to cheat so i would prefer it anytime.

And a lobby with several maps to choose would be problematic in terms of matchmaking. Currently the MM can simply take 24 people within a tier-limit and create a match with 'em.
But imagine those 24 players wanting different maps? It would take ages to find a game with 24 players who want to play for example Forest Colony. So you may have a choice, but waiting times will still force you to pick HPG, Polar or Solaris if you want to have a chance to get a match within reasonable time.